Sexism and Religion

[Zoness]

This concerns you? You are a self-described crypto-anarchist

Not sure how that correlates with my political beliefs but it does correlate with the new management style of this board.

 

[pwood]

The above makes no sense. So American Christian women are into self punishment because the men they marry don't go to church but they go anyway because they are subservient?

I was specific about the religious environment that I was speaking of.

 

[redleghunter]

Margaret Sanger's been dead since the 1960s. Why do people keep dragging her out? I hear Ulysses S. Grant wasn't much of a President.

Her legacy lives on today. Racism, eugenics and abortion. She's the heroine of feminism and the left.

 

[redleghunter]

Not sure how that correlates with my political beliefs but it does correlate with the new management style of this board.

I see, compartmentalization. Cool.

 

[Zoness]

I see, compartmentalization. Cool.

Huh. I'm not even sure what you're talking about now. How about my original question? I noticed that you went meta but ignored that?

 

[awitch]

But Sarah Palin and Bachman are fair game here? Oh, I see only conservative women are a danger to our society but the Hillary Clinton's and Margaret Sanger's are a ok?

I mentioned two. No where did I say anything about all conservative women or even Sanger.

 

[redleghunter]

I was specific about the religious environment that I was speaking of.

I beg to differ. You presented a generalization.

 

[redleghunter]

Huh. I'm not even sure what you're talking about now. How about my original question? I noticed that you went meta but ignored that?

What's new about the management style here other than chaotic?

 

[redleghunter]

I mentioned two. No where did I say anything about all conservative women or even Sanger.

Ok, those two just popped up. Understand. But the 'smartest' women in the world in Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi did not.

 

[pwood]

I beg to differ. You presented a generalization.

To quote myself "But among the churches that expect women to be the subservient gender"

That is the specific environment I am talking about, there is no generalization there.

In that same post, I pointed out that what the OP (the persons post that started this thread) was talking about will unlikely exist in a church that has a female pastor.

I guess if a Woman is forced to go to these churches, then I retract my point and figure there is a deeper poison within Christianity than I ever realized.

 

[redleghunter]

To quote myself "But among the churches that expect women to be the subservient gender"

That is the specific environment I am talking about, there is no generalization there.

In that same post, I pointed out that what the OP (the persons post that started this thread) was talking about will unlikely exist in a church that has a female pastor.

I guess if a Woman is forced to go to these churches, then I retract my point and figure there is a deeper poison within Christianity than I ever realized.

Well it is a generalization. If women are not pastors, elders or deacons in a church your generalization states they are subservient. By whose standards? Your's? God's?

 

[awitch]

Ok, those two just popped up. Understand. But the 'smartest' women in the world in Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi did not.

Yes, I think we've all successfully deduced you are not a fan of Hillary Clinton.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, I think we've all successfully deduced you are not a fan of Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton....Is she pagan approved?

 

[pwood]

Well it is a generalization. If women are not pastors, elders or deacons in a church your generalization states they are subservient. By whose standards? Your's? God's?

What part of "expecting Women to be the submissive gender" is generalizing? There are churches that teach that, there is no generalization here.

And on one hand YES, if a church does not allow women to be in any of those roles, it is a sexist environment. It has nothing to do with observation, it is the FACT that there are Christian churches that would not allow a women to be in any role of leadership over the whole church body. most of those will allow women to teach little kids in sunday school.

I once went to a church that had a male pastor (ok, sure, doesn't mean anything according to your assertion), However they taught "Gender roles" and of course , the "biblical" standard was that ANY woman teacher had to have male authority to approve anything they wanted to conduct in their lesson. I mean, seriously, you can dance around this all day long, and it doesn't change that these environments have nothing to do with a real stance of equality for women, the bible is simply used as an excuse for male dominance and the poison keeps flourishing in these environments because women put up with it and keep going.

 

[redleghunter]

What part of "expecting Women to be the submissive gender" is generalizing? There are churches that teach that, there is no generalization here.

And on one hand YES, if a church does not allow women to be in any of those roles, it is a sexist environment. It has nothing to do with observation, it is the FACT that there are Christian churches that would not allow a women to be in any role of leadership over the whole church body. most of those will allow women to teach little kids in sunday school.

I once went to a church that had a male pastor (ok, sure, doesn't mean anything according to your assertion), However they taught "Gender roles" and of course , the "biblical" standard was that ANY woman teacher had to have male authority to approve anything they wanted to conduct in their lesson. I mean, seriously, you can dance around this all day long, and it doesn't change that these environments have nothing to do with a real stance of equality for women, the bible is simply used as an excuse for male dominance and the poison keeps flourishing in these environments because women put up with it and keep going.

Again by whose standards are these churches sexist? Your's? Society? God?

 

[pwood]

Again by whose standards are these churches sexist? Your's? Society? God?

The standard of Reality. Here is a church environment that specifically tells women that they must have MALE approval. WOW

 

[redleghunter]

The standard of Reality. Here is a church environment that specifically tells women that they must have MALE approval. WOW

What's the 'wow' moment for. The apostles planted the first churches. So you really are not railing against this specific church but the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hot Ice the MGTOW]

I

While we are called to be servants, that isn't even close to what I am talking about, and I know you know that. You are simply deflecting the reality of many Christian environments. Many Christian environments that Women continue to willingly go to are male dominated and they teach that women have their place as dictated by the males that teach in these environments. (how convenient). All under the guise of being "biblical". I mean, just state the phrase "The bible should not be changed" when talking about females in religion and there is my point made. These environments have nothing to do with the spiritual side of things, just because a bunch of people use religious clichés.

You are right, when you say that we are all called to be servants. I understand that you were not talking about being servants. And neither was I. I was talking about how we are all called to submit, to obey, to line up underneath the authority of another, etc. and that includes in the church. I fail to see how I'm deflecting anything, actually.

What I was doing was pointing out that the same accusation, regarding subservience, is in your comment in the same way I've heard other feminist comments. That is to say that it is presented in such a way that demands that anybody expecting anyone into a bay any man in any church is guilty, by default, of seeing women as lesser in value, an animal to be dominated, a slave to be ordered around in a dictatorial fashion. It's a sad state of affairs that we can't even have a conversation about church leadership without that accusation flung in the faces of every man and every church.

Is just irresponsible to suggest that because I bring that up, I am somehow denying the existence of dictatorship in church situations. Smh

 

[pwood]

What's the 'wow' moment for. The apostles planted the first churches. So you really are not railing against this specific church but the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Yes, WOW, just because someone can make a case using the "bible" doesn't mean it is right. We can look at history concerning that, all kinds of wrong has been done by quoting "scripture" in the bible to say it means this or that. Oh, I disagree , so I must therefore be defying some saint of God. OR OR, it is simply the result of realizing that interpretation is nothing but corrupt poison.

So, saying I am railing against the apostles is pointless because even if all the supposed genius scholars and translators got it all right concerning what it ""says""", doesn't mean it is actually the correct way to live. And yes, for those that don't get it, I AM saying, if the "bible" does teach that men should have last say of authority over women, then it should simply be thrown in the trash.

What I am pointing out is the absurdity of a church environment specifically showing that males will rule over women in that environment and unfortunately there are women who will keep going to those environments ,then think something like allowing them to vote was actually a good thing.

 

[Hot Ice the MGTOW]

META: Is it just me or this thread getting raided? A lot of non-regulars posting.

At any rate I'm going to try to rebase the discussion since I've lost track of my rants a few pages back. One thing I do not understand: Why are women disallowed authority over men in many traditional churches? Is this more separate but equal stuff or what? Same question extends to Muslims.

One reason is that authority over men doesn't speak of equality, but rather of function. The Bible doesn't defend the arrangrment of women in authority over men. Even the book of Judges, with Judge Deborah, even with Sarah telling Abraham to cast out the bondwoman, etc, does not set a precedent for the Bible being OK with that arrangement. Leadership was a masculine burden-- and, to this day, still is. Not just the power, but also the burden, the responsibility, and all the stress involved.

I cannot appreciate the constant comparison to race, however, due to the fact that racial laws never acknowledged equality of value, but rather reduced blacks to being less than human, more like animals, not worthy of any human dignity, which is why it was legal to kill them for so long, why interracial marriage was forbidden, etc we are not talking about the same thing, when it comes to women.

Women clearly have many more rights and privileges today than do men-- whether we are talking in church, or out.