Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

[rnmomof7]

No. It wasn't God's doing that they should cause Judah to sin. If anything that verse is telling us that man has free agency to act as they will. It all transpires in God's creation. God knowing all that will transpire isn't tantamount to God dabbling in every little element to make things happen.
If you are a sink manufacturer you know how a sink works. You created everything about that sink and attached to that sink to work as a sink is suppose to.

But God knows EXACTLY what His creation will do in any given circumstance .... Man will always choose according to his preference.. God ordained those preferences when He created that man ...

God knew Israel would seek after other Gods because He had given them hearts of flesh that would wander from Him to other gods, the nation was designed to betray Him ...so He could show His grace and mercy to them ...so we could see how long suffering and patient He is


.. that is why He said they needed new hearts ... that is why He was able to give prophecy about the unfaithfulness and the punishments He would exert on them..

Unlike a sink that malfunctions because the designer erred ... the designer of man never errors

 

[Marvin Knox]

You said, "By the way – I find it interesting that God has poured out of His eternal wrath on Himself for all the sins of the world." This goes to my point about reasoning. Where do you find anything at all in Scripture that says God poured out His wrath on Himself?

I have been concerned for you all along because you denied the doctrine of spiritual death in fallen man, the need for him to be born again, your propensity to reinterpret verses that indicated that salvation was of the will of God and not the will of men and other things you have said.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt as have many others here. Perhaps you were indeed a brother. But you just were off in a few areas.

I have previously refused to respond to a few others here because I feel that they are teaching another gospel - one of works and not faith. You seemed to be of that same flavor too. But I couldn't be sure enough to break it off with you.

But this takes the cake.

I will no longer discuss the teachings of a book written for born again believers with what now appears to be a walking dead man.

 

[EmSw]

So they surprised God ??

Is this all you can come up with?

 

[EmSw]

No. It wasn't God's doing that they should cause Judah to sin. If anything that verse is telling us that man has free agency to act as they will. It all transpires in God's creation. God knowing all that will transpire isn't tantamount to God dabbling in every little element to make things happen.
If you are a sink manufacturer you know how a sink works. You created everything about that sink and attached to that sink to work as a sink is suppose to.
When you sell that sink set you know how it's working in that new home. And if something goes wrong you can figure out why. Because you created the sink. And you sold the sink knowing the one who bought it would use it as a sink is suppose to be used.
It doesn't mean you made that buyer use the sink your way. They used it their way. And your knowledge of how that works out is not the same thing as being the one that makes the sink work according to their desires.

You just kicked a big hole in predestination.

 

[Butch5]

What is apparently missed by those who continually charge the WCF contradicts itself is they don't read in context the entire document.
God created everything, knows all things that operate due to his creating them to do so by the laws he established. And that included the implantation of free will. Free will then is the human hearts elective to obey or disobey God's laws set forth for righteousness. Be that we know them or not. As his laws are written in our heart.
God set the stage. He didn't attach strings to the people so he could occupy infinity as the individuals puppeteer.

That sin exists in the world isn't because God created it so as if it is a thing.

Sin exists in the world because God created a righteous plan and then deposited people into it so they could carry out the plan using the added particle that is free agency of the human mind. Born from the mind of creator. And all the while all transpires with God's human creation working at finding their way back to the source from whence they sprang.Regardless of trajectory. Because when all things are God no thing can not be God.

The first descriptions of Sheol, which became hades, and then Gehenna, and then flaming bottomless pit Hell, was absence from the sight and presence of God. Annihilation. Antimatter. The elect, the non-elect. Everything is designed to give its creator the glory.
What's that mean? God's an egoist? Self-absorbed. No, 'my thoughts are not your thoughts'. Rather, the glory that is given God is God defining God. Eternally and brilliantly forever.


CHAPTER IV.
Of Creation.
II. After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness after his own image, having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfill it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change. Besides this law written in their hearts, they received a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; which while they kept were happy in their communion with God, and had dominion over the creatures.


CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

So, you see, it's got several assumptions and errors. They said man was created with an immortal soul. Paul said the Father alone has immortality. They said, "Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ," This who passage is out of context. There is nothing in the Scriptures that say God chose people to be saved before the foundation of the world. They also said, "These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangably designed" That statement is flatly refute in Ezekiel where God say, 'if a wick man turns from his wickedness he shall live'. That shows that they are not unchangably designed. They also talk of those who are predestined to life as an unchangeable event. However, God said to Ezekiel, 'when a righteous man turns from his righteousness he shall die.' They said, "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel." I'd submit that they didn't even understand the doctrine of Predestination. They're contradicting Scripture and using it out of context. This is why I left Reformation theology.

 

[EmSw]

I have been concerned for you all along because you denied the doctrine of spiritual death in fallen man, the need for him to be born again, your propensity to reinterpret verses that indicated that salvation was of the will of God and not the will of men and other things you have said.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt as have many others here. Perhaps you were indeed a brother. But you just were off in a few areas.

I have previously refused to respond to a few others here because I feel that they are teaching another gospel - one of works and not faith. You seemed to be of that same flavor too. But I couldn't be sure enough to break it off with you.

But this takes the cake.

I will no longer discuss the teachings of a book written for born again believers with what now appears to be a walking dead man.

Well, well, well Butch, you have been judged as others have. I guess you can just forget about God; I see you have been deemed a walking dead man. You took the cake and I guess you ate it too. Not to worry though, I have been accused of another gospel also, and accursed.

You are loved, and don't forget it. Although some will 'break it off with you', just remember, God will never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[Blank Stair]

You just kicked a big hole in predestination.

Not at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh look! He's discovered a new word game to play.

You are welcome to reverse the terms first and second causes as they pertain to God and man - no problem with me.

You are welcome to use any terms you want to use instead of first and second causes - no problem with me.

I din't reverse anything. Pleasse review my post.

Second, I pointed out reality. There are primary causes and secondary causes and I gave examples. What hasn't been proven is the notion of first and second causes. It's just a claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This just isn't true.

What the WCF is asserting is not a contradiction.

If you fired a bullet at me and the bullet killed me - it is not a contradiction to say that the bullet was the direct cause but that you were the first cause in that you had fired the bullet while knowing full well that the bullet would kill me.

But this completely contradicts the WCF which says that God is the first cause of all things. So you cannot be the first cause in this case. So, what are you in this case, other than the murderer, of course.

Remember, God created you. He is the first cause of all you do, per the WCF.

Every court of law on earth and every rule of logic would agree that you and the bullet were both causes of my death.

Will the bullet do time as well?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which could never have been "invented " by man if God did not create the men in the circumstances , with the family, intelligence , creativity and ability and opportunity to do that ....


One more time ..If God is not the first cause not the first responder what is He ? Still waiting for an answer

He's God. There is no such thing as "first cause". It's a red herring. There is 'primary cause' and 'secondary causes'.

God is the primary cause of creation. Man is the primary cause of what he creates, being created in the image of Creator God.

 

[EmSw]

Not at all.

So, did the sink manufacturer 'predestine' how that sink will be used?

 

[Butch5]

I have been concerned for you all along because you denied the doctrine of spiritual death in fallen man, the need for him to be born again, your propensity to reinterpret verses that indicated that salvation was of the will of God and not the will of men and other things you have said.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt as have many others here. Perhaps you were indeed a brother. But you just were off in a few areas.

I have previously refused to respond to a few others here because I feel that they are teaching another gospel - one of works and not faith. You seemed to be of that same flavor too. But I couldn't be sure enough to break it off with you.

But this takes the cake.

I will no longer discuss the teachings of a book written for born again believers with what now appears to be a walking dead man.

That's OK Marvin. This is the usual response I get from Calvinists. I'm pretty sure I know the real reason that you've elected to end discussion. I took notice that you made not attempt to show me or explain where we find Scripture that says God poured out His wrath on Himself. My bet is because it's not in Scripture. Guess what that is, it's a doctrine of man. If you study church history you'll find that for the first 1000 years of Christianity Christians believed in what is called the classic or Ransom view of the atonement. Then around 1100+ AD. A Catholic theologian named Anselm of Canterbury decided that he didn't like that theory and came up with another one. He decided that Man had offended God and man wasn't capable of righting the offense because it was so great. So, he decided that the offense could only be righted by someone greater than man. He decided that only Christ could right the offense. His new theory became known as the Satisfaction theory. He was able to institute this theory into the Catholic church. This is the theory that the Reformers learned. However, when they broke from the Catholic church they decided they'd tweak the theory and what eventually came of it is the Penal model of the atonement that is held by many. The problem is that it too creates contradictions with the Scriptures. The Penal model of the atonement says that Christ died to pay the price for men's sins/satisfy the wrath of God on men/believers. The problem is that the Scriptures say that God will forgive the sins of those who come to Him in faith. So, once again we come to two mutually exclusive statements. Man's sins are either paid for or forgiven. One cannot both forgive and pay the same debt, that violates the Law of Non Contradiction. So we have to decide, who is correct, the men who developed the Penal model of the atonement or the Scriptures? There are also other problems with the Penal model of the atonement. One is that the wages of sin is death, so man dies for his own sins. Even believers die for their sins. Why is that if Christ paid for their sins? Another is that if the penalty for sin is eternal damnation, it wasn't paid. Jesus didn't die eternally.

 

[Blank Stair]

So, you see, it's got several assumptions and errors. They said man was created with an immortal soul. Paul said the Father alone has immortality. They said, "Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ," This who passage is out of context. There is nothing in the Scriptures that say God chose people to be saved before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

They also said, "These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed" That statement is flatly refute in Ezekiel where God say, 'if a wick man turns from his wickedness he shall live'.

That is taken out of context.
CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

That shows that they are not unchangably designed. They also talk of those who are predestined to life as an unchangeable event. However, God said to Ezekiel, 'when a righteous man turns from his righteousness he shall die.'

That's an excerpt from Ezekiel 33 and verse 18. Reading all of chapter 33 puts it into context. And that then refutes what you say is there.

They said, "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel."
I'd submit that they didn't even understand the doctrine of Predestination. They're contradicting Scripture and using it out of context. This is why I left Reformation theology.[/QUOTE]

That excerpt of CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree. And verse VIII, does not demonstrate the authors of WCF did not know what predestination was. It shows they did know. Proof of that is reiterated in Chapter V Providence.

Maybe you didn't understand reformation theology because in reading the Bible, which supports RFT, and the WCF, you read them as you present them here in argument. Piecemeal. Out of context. You read each one chapter of the WCF without realizing it is a holistic body of understanding.

 

[Butch5]

Well, well, well Butch, you have been judged as others have. I guess you can just forget about God; I see you have been deemed a walking dead man. You took the cake and I guess you ate it too. Not to worry though, I have been accused of another gospel also, and accursed.

You are loved, and don't forget it. Although some will 'break it off with you', just remember, God will never leave you nor forsake you.

I've been called worse. People get upset because I don't follow the crowd. I used to but I got tired of all of the nonsense. In the Scriptures I see a God who doesn't contradict Himself, who reasons properly, and calls His followers to do so. He told the Israelites, 'come let us reason together'. In the Scriptures we find that God cannot deny Himself. As such He cannot contradict Himself. We are called to imitate our creator. Therefore we shouldn't accept illogical arguments and contradictions.

You see all of the confusion in people's doctrines and the confusion it causes. Logic and rationality has allow me to eliminate a lot of the confusion that I see. It's really a shame that people aren't more willing to put their doctrines to the test and throw out those things that can't stand in the light of Scripture. If they would they could make great strides in understanding the Bible as a whole instead of as a collection of proof texts. If that sounds arrogant it's not meant to be. It's just really wonderful to get past all of this back and forth that so many go through.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

What does it say? Chosen to be holy and blameless, not predestined to eternal. However, this passage isn't even about Christians, it's about the Jews. Would you argue that every single Jew will be saved?

That is taken out of context.
CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

Yes, I read it and my statement still stands.

That's an excerpt from Ezekiel 33 and verse 18. Reading all of chapter 33 puts it into context. And that then refutes what you say is there.

You're being arbitrary. I can say no it's not.

[/quote]They said, "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel."
I'd submit that they didn't even understand the doctrine of Predestination. They're contradicting Scripture and using it out of context. This is why I left Reformation theology.[/QUOTE]

That excerpt of CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree. And verse VIII, does not demonstrate the authors of WCF did not know what predestination was. It shows they did know. Proof of that is reiterated in Chapter V Providence.

Maybe you didn't understand reformation theology because in reading the Bible, which supports RFT, and the WCF, you read them as you present them here in argument. Piecemeal. Out of context. You read each one chapter of the WCF without realizing it is a holistic body of understanding.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, the Bible doesn't support RFT. The reason some believe it does is because Scripture passages are use piecemeal and out of context.

However, rather than this back and forth, why don't you pick an area of RFT that you believe is sound and we can look and see if it's really found in the Scriptures. We could even start with Epheisan 1 that you posted above if you'd like.

 

[Blank Stair]

So, did the sink manufacturer 'predestine' how that sink will be used?

The sink manufacturer designed a sink to be used as a sink is used. Knowing full well how a sink would be used.
If the owner of the sink used it as a plugged container like sled in which they decided to sit and then launch themselves down a hill of snow, the sink to do that in came first. While all sorts of ways sinks can be otherwise used are able to cross a sink makers mind. Because they know what a sink is rightly used for. And how it can be otherwise utilized given its design.

Did the sink maker pull the strings that made the guy plug his sink and launch the sink owner down the hill? No. Why? Because the sink maker didn't fate the man to use his sink that way. Given all the variables and a sink and a man, the man chose to launch himself down that hill. But he couldn't have done it without thinking first that the sink design would make a great container sled if only it were plugged.

 

[Blank Stair]

What does it say? Chosen to be holy and blameless, not predestined to eternal. However, this passage isn't even about Christians, it's about the Jews. Would you argue that every single Jew will be saved?

What do the scriptures tell you?

Yes, I read it and my statement still stands.

Yes, I know.

You're being arbitrary. I can say no it's not.

You can say no, it's not. Of course. You have that freedom. That doesn't mean you're correct though.


I'm going to stop responding at that point above. Your remarks have cut my remarks into such a mess as to make it troubling to keep track. And I won't do the cleanup.

 

[Butch5]

What do the scriptures tell you?

If you look at the passage closely and in context it can be seen that Paul s referring to two different groups of people. The one's who were chosen to be holy and blameless were the Jews

You can say no, it's not. Of course. You have that freedom. That doesn't mean you're correct though.

My point was that your statement was arbitrary, You just said, "Reading all of chapter 33 puts it into context. And that then refutes what you say is there."

I'm going to stop responding at that point above. Your remarks have cut my remarks into such a mess as to make it troubling to keep track. And I won't do the cleanup.

That's fine.

 

[EmSw]

The sink manufacturer designed a sink to be used as a sink is used. Knowing full well how a sink would be used.
If the owner of the sink used it as a plugged container like sled in which they decided to sit and then launch themselves down a hill of snow, the sink to do that in came first. While all sorts of ways sinks can be otherwise used are able to cross a sink makers mind. Because they know what a sink is rightly used for. And how it can be otherwise utilized given its design.

Did the sink maker pull the strings that made the guy plug his sink and launch the sink owner down the hill? No. Why? Because the sink maker didn't fate the man to use his sink that way. Given all the variables and a sink and a man, the man chose to launch himself down that hill. But he couldn't have done it without thinking first that the sink design would make a great container sled if only it were plugged.

You are still a long way from proving predestination with this story.

 

[Blank Stair]

If you look at the passage closely and in context it can be seen that Paul s referring to two different groups of people. The one's who were chosen to be holy and blameless were the Jews.

Those that were predestined, holy and blameless, were Jews and Gentiles. Because God sent Paul to bring the good news to the Gentiles.

My point was that your statement was arbitrary, You just said, "Reading all of chapter 33 puts it into context. And that then refutes what you say is there."

You excerpted one verse from chapter 33 to make your point. Your point was not correct because it was using that single verse to support itself. The entire chapter 33 puts the verse you excerpted into full context of the message delivered in total. A message that necessarily included the single verse you excerpted and in order to deliver a complete message that is contrary to what you think a single verse says of it all.

That's fine.

I appreciate your understanding. Thank you.