Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[Meowzltov]

Since Paul was preaching to gentiles, I heard he meant for the converted gentiles to not be dismayed at being bothered by the unconverted gentiles giving them a hard time for observing the Sabbath etc

At first, Judaizers insisted that Gentile believers observe Jewish laws, such as keeping the Sabbath. But the council of Jerusalem freed Gentiles from this.

 

[Meowzltov]

Even the RCC admits that the Lord's Day as given in the Bible is Saturday - the 7th day of the week, the last day of the week. As we see in their own commentary on their Catholic Catechism -

Can you please quote the catechism (including the paragraph number)? A URL would also be helpful. Thanks.

 

[Meowzltov]

And of course your own CCC claims that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are still binding

But we don't apply keeping the sabbath to the sabbath. We apply it to the Lord's Day.

You still haven't responded to my Ignatius quote.

I eagerly await your catechism quote and URL.

 

[Meowzltov]

Which document for Ignatius makes that claim - that is not a forgery?

His letter to the Magnesians.

 

[Meowzltov]

And even if the forged document were accepted - how does this change the statement made by the RC sources quoted - pointing to the fact that the Lord's day existed in the OT as the 7th day Sabbath?

You cannot find "the Lord's Day" in the Old Testament. You find other similar wordings that mean other things.

 

[BobRyan]

You cannot find "the Lord's Day" in the Old Testament. You find other similar wordings that mean other things.

"Holy Day of the Lord" - "My Holy Day" -- Son of Man is "Lord of the Sabbath" - "The Lord's Day" -- a distinction without a difference.

Even the RCC admits that the Lord's Day as given in the Bible is Saturday - the 7th day of the week, the last day of the week.

Is 58
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,


And so do all the other Christian groups listed in the signature line below - admit to this Bible detail

Which is one of the reasons why even your own Pope John Paul II and your own commentary on the Baltimore Catechism "The Faith Explained" all refer to the Lord's Day in the Old Testament.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68474953, member: 235244"]As we see in their own commentary on their Catholic Catechism -

Well your own commentary on your Baltimore Catechism apparently claims the "Lord's Day" as given in the actual Bible - was Saturday - and then edited later by church - tradition sometime after the cross.

And your own Pope John Paul II claims the Lord's Day in the OT -
And of course your own CCC claims that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are still binding

"Ten Commandments NOT Abolished" -

=======================================
2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

As Pope John Paul II argues that "continued" view for the Sabbath Commandment - bent to point to week-day-1


Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.============[/QUOTE]

But we don't apply keeping the sabbath to the sabbath. We apply it to the Lord's Day.

You still haven't responded to my Ignatius quote.

I eagerly await your catechism quote and URL.

1. I did - I show that in the actual document the term "Lord's day" is not even in it. I also pointed out that even had it been in it - you don't have a quote from Ignatius saying that the Lord's Day did not exist in the OT as the Sabbath Commandment.
2. A Pope John Paul II points out - the Sabbath Commandment is being "edited" - so that the TEN remain for Christians - but the Sabbath Commandment is being kept via some tradition rather than what the Bible says about it.

 

[Meowzltov]

And even if the forged document were accepted - how does this change the statement made by the RC sources quoted - pointing to the fact that the Lord's day existed in the OT as the 7th day Sabbath?

You have mentioned these sources. You have not given a access to them. How about a URL and stuff.

 

[Meowzltov]

Which is one of the reasons why even your own Pope John Paul II and your own commentary on the Baltimore Catechism "The Faith Explained" all refer to the Lord's Day in the Old Testament.

in Christ,

Bob

You keep saying this over and over, but you never quote and cite your sources. Surely you don't expect me to just take your word for it?

Here is my source. I went to biblegateway.com and typed in "Lord's day" I got back the following response: there were NO references to the Lord's Day in the OT.

 

[Meowzltov]

1. I did - I show that in the actual document the term "Lord's day" is not even in it. I also pointed out that even had it been in it - you don't have a quote from Ignatius saying that the Lord's Day did not exist in the OT as the Sabbath Commandment.

So???? That doesn't prove your point, or negate anything I've said.

2. A Pope John Paul II points out - the Sabbath Commandment is being "edited" - so that the TEN remain for Christians - but the Sabbath Commandment is being kept via some tradition rather than what the Bible says about it.

This is true. Although the church has not moved the Sabbath to Sunday, it has moved the SOLEMNITY of the Sabbath to Sunday, thus applying the commandment to the Lord's Day rather than to the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

1. I did - I show that in the actual document the term "Lord's day" is not even in it. I also pointed out that even had it been in it - you don't have a quote from Ignatius saying that the Lord's Day did not exist in the OT as the Sabbath Commandment.

So???? That doesn't prove your point, or negate anything I've said.

You keep arguing that the Lord's Day in the OT is not really the Lord's Day even though your own Pope John Paul II and your own commentary on the Baltimore Catechism state otherwise. You quote Ingatius as if this supports your claim - but he says nothing at all about the Lord's Day in the letter you mention.

Not sure how you would propose this is not affecting your statements on that point.

2. As Pope John Paul II points out - the Sabbath Commandment is being "edited" - so that the TEN remain for Christians - but the Sabbath Commandment is being kept via some tradition rather than what the Bible says about it.

This is true. Although the church has not moved the Sabbath to Sunday, it has moved the SOLEMNITY of the Sabbath to Sunday, thus applying the commandment to the Lord's Day rather than to the Sabbath.

Thus applying "what commandment"??? one of the TEN?? --

the one that comes just before "Honor your father and mother"???

The Sabbath Commandment?

How is editing the Sabbath Commandment -- not changing it??

You seem to be admitting to this change in the Sabbath commandment - pointing it to week-day-1 instead of the 7th day, the Sabbath as given by God in scripture.

You speak of it "as if" they added "The 11th commandment" that is "remember week-day-1 as the LORD's Day to keep it holy" and then they said "and if you are not a Jew then ignore the Sabbath commandment" as an addendum.

but instead of that - they admit to going directly after the Sabbath Commandment and transferring ITs authority, solemnity, "sanctified day" status - to week-day-1. A claim to change that specific commandment.

 

[BobRyan]

Even the RCC admits that the Lord's Day as given in the Bible is Saturday - the 7th day of the week, the last day of the week. As we see in their own commentary on their Catholic Catechism -

Can you please quote the catechism (including the paragraph number)? A URL would also be helpful. Thanks.

The "Faith Explained" is the "Commentary on the Catholic Catechism" by Leo Tresse claimed as the standard text for Catholic schools, universities etc -- This is what I keep quoting along with Pope John Paul II on this point.

 

[BobRyan]

You keep saying this over and over, but you never quote and cite your sources. Surely you don't expect me to just take your word for it?

Here is my source. I went to biblegateway.com and typed in "Lord's day" I got back the following response: there were NO references to the Lord's Day in the OT.

I have given the quotes maybe half a dozen times on this thread, the quote and the source - almost once per page - and also on this same page

47 minutes ago #327
Yesterday at 1:54 PM #305

 

[BobRyan]

But we don't apply keeping the sabbath to the sabbath. We apply it to the Lord's Day.

We don't apply keeping the Sabbath to The Sabbath we apply "it" (keeping the Sabbath) to the Lord's Day -- is that what you are saying?

So then when you say "Sabbath" you mean the "Lord's day" -- ???

I do the same thing.

But when you say Sabbath, and the Lord's Day -- you mean "week day 1" and you admit that this is not the Sabbath God gave at Sinai.

Right?

 

[Meowzltov]

1. I did - I show that in the actual document the term "Lord's day" is not even in it.

And I explained to you that this is irrelevant. You can show it to me a thousand times and it will still not prove a darn thing.

I also pointed out that even had it been in it - you don't have a quote from Ignatius saying that the Lord's Day did not exist in the OT as the Sabbath Commandment.

I don't need a quote from anyone stating that the Lord's day didn't exist in the OT as the Sabbath. I went directly to the source and showed you that the OT never mentions a Lord's Day.

You keep arguing that the Lord's Day in the OT is not really the Lord's Day even though your own Pope John Paul II and your own commentary on the Baltimore Catechism state otherwise.

You keep talking and talking about this, but you have never quote the Baltimore Catechism nor provided a URL. Your quote of JP2 didn't prove your point, as I already discussed.

You quote Ingatius as if this supports your claim - but he says nothing at all about the Lord's Day in the letter you mention.

Igatius doesn't discuss the Lord's day? Let's look AGAIN.
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

but instead of that - they admit to going directly after the Sabbath Commandment and transferring ITs authority, solemnity, "sanctified day" status - to week-day-1. A claim to change that specific commandment.

You don't have to like it. I'm just telling you what they did. They did not switch the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday: they transferred the SOLEMNITY from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day, and keep the commandment by observing the Lord's Day as if it were the Sabbath. That's the facts. Again, you don't have to like it.

 

[Meowzltov]

Even the RCC admits that the Lord's Day as given in the Bible is Saturday - the 7th day of the week, the last day of the week. As we see in their own commentary on their Catholic Catechism -

Still waiting for your quote and url from the catechism.

 

[Meowzltov]

I have given the quotes maybe half a dozen times on this thread, the quote and the source - almost once per page - and also on this same page

Give me ONE verse in the OT where it says "the Lord's Day." Those exact words.

 

[Meowzltov]

We don't apply keeping the Sabbath to The Sabbath we apply "it" (keeping the Sabbath) to the Lord's Day -- is that what you are saying?

So then when you say "Sabbath" you mean the "Lord's day" -- ???

I do the same thing.

But when you say Sabbath, and the Lord's Day -- you mean "week day 1" and you admit that this is not the Sabbath God gave at Sinai.

Right?

Right.

 

[BobRyan]

Give me ONE verse in the OT where it says "the Lord's Day." Those exact words.

You are looking for a distinction without a difference to hang your hat on - but even your own Pope John Paul II and your own Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism admit the Lord's Day as given in the Bible -- is Saturday, the 7th day of the week, and they are firm on that point until at least the cross of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

And I explained to you that this is irrelevant. You can show it to me a thousand times and it will still not prove a darn thing. I don't need a quote from anyone stating that the Lord's day didn't exist in the OT as the Sabbath. I went directly to the source and showed you that the OT never mentions a Lord's Day.
You keep talking and talking about this, but you have never quote the Baltimore Catechism nor provided a URL. Your quote of JP2 didn't prove your point, as I already discussed.
Igatius doesn't discuss the Lord's day? Let's look AGAIN.
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

You don't have to like it. I'm just telling you what they did. They did not switch the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday: they transferred the SOLEMNITY from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day, and keep the commandment by observing the Lord's Day as if it were the Sabbath. That's the facts. Again, you don't have to like it.

Well I don't share your opinion on that point.

And neither does your own Pope John Paul II or your own Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism.


================================================

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68473931,

...commentary on the Baltimore Catechism -

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

Proof that this view has been around ... for a while.


1946

In the Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.


1566

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday!
p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937. (First published in 1566)
​

amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.


========================================================================

As Pope John Paul II argues that "continued" view for the Sabbath Commandment - bent to point to week-day-1


Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Notice how well that statement above fits with the other Christian groups on this topic - as noted below in the signature line?[/QUOTE]




And of course here they argue their case for "Ten Commandments NOT Abolished" -

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.


===========================

[/QUOTE]