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Would Anyone Care To Defend The Creation Model?

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christtoulese

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Hallelujah! All raise to God almighty who alone created all things in the universe.
the enemy has his fools who try to brainwash the children but just look at nature, the trees the birds.
even a child knows they reproduce themsleves.

Now take a ford truck
and replace it piece by piece and screw by screw with ferrari parts, WHILE RUNNING and keep it running until the whole truck has been converted to ferrari...
IMPOSSIBLE

cells cannot change into another species for in the middile of the engine exchange the cell would die.

any child can see this.
evolution=garbage
it is not a theory it is a false religion.
 
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christtoulese

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How does God create?
He speaks the word, and planets and suns appear. He is great.

funny how on star trek Q comes along and creates and all the guys go OOOooooo!
and on bewitched samantha goes twitch twitch and creates and all the girls go OOOOOooooo
But All powerful god when he REALLY creates you say NAAAAH!

thats cause believe it or not you are bigoted and hate the truth and dont want the truth.

The very first post of this thread someone said state how god creates what is his mechanism.
A finite being is supposed to explain god or he wont believe.
Well.
thats stupid.

you want to debate creation? forget it.
I want to tell you evolution is an invention of satan, he sent his angels and told DARWIN he was going to be chosen for a new religion and he would be famous. this is true story. Satan appeared to Darwin and told him that everywhere evolution would be taught he would send powerful demons to hypnotize people so they would accept the lie....
I can put the document up here.
if you want
or you can search for it, his freind wrote that letter in the 1800's

Evolution is totally illogical, can never happen, goes against all the laws of entropy and is basically self perpetuaing lies since universities wont hire creationsists so you have to lie to get work.

Go outside
look at nature
it is not from evolution.
god made it all for you and you slap his face.
we will not be seeing you in the heavens...
 
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DogmaHunter

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In other words you don't want to accept that a priest wrote your entire concept of the Big Bang as his concept of creation which you adopted??????

When LeMaitre came up with big bang theory, he was working as a physicist at the university of Leuven in Belgium.

Yes, he was also a priest. And Carl Sagan was an atheist.
Who cares?

The pope at one point tried to invoke LeMaitre's work to make a theological point, saying "see? the universe began at some point and god created it".

Do you know what LeMaitre's reaction was to that? He wrote the pope a letter to ask him to STOP saying such things, insisting that his big bang model was a scientific model and NOT a theological point.

Correlation does not imply causation in any way.
The fact that LeMaitre was a catholic priest isn't any more relevant then the people who invented algebra being muslims.

The science of these people is independent of their religious beliefs.

That you now don't want to accept the fact that the Big Bang is nothing but a creation event proposed by a priest is a personal problem with accepting facts you should learn to deal with.


Now, you are not only making claims about LeMaitre that make no sense, you are also misrepresenting big bang theory.

Contrary to popular belief, big bang DOES NOT explain the origin of the universe.
Much like how evolution explains what happened to life once it existed, so does the big bang explain what happened to the universe once it existed.

Our math and understanding of physics can only take us back to what is called "planck time". Going back further makes our understanding of physics collapse, most likely because we haven't unified gravity with the other forces yet.

As Lemaître said: “As far as I can see, such a theory remains entirely outside any metaphysical or religious question. It leaves the materialist free to deny any transcendental Being… For the believer, it removes any attempt at familiarity with God… It is consonant with Isaiah speaking of the hidden God, hidden even in the beginning of the universe.”

LeMaitre can say what he wants. The fact is that his big bang theory doesn't make any mention of any gods or other supernatural shenannigans.

His religious interpretations of science are irrelevant to the science.





Like your saying life just sprung up by random chance

Where did he say that?
I doubt he would agree to that.


- i.e. created

"created" IMPLIES agency. It IMPLIES an act by a being. It is a LOADED word.

Try words like "formed" or "developed", which are more neutral. They don't tend to assume answers before asking the questions.


without being able to demonstrate that life can come from non-life by random chance or even design by humans?????

We have no need to demonstrate strawmen...

So can you demonstrate life from non-life in the lab? So I guess we are kinda stuck then, huh?

Yes, we are stuck. Stuck because you insist on arguing strawmen.

It's not that you don't have a good explanation - it's you don't have any that don't rely on belief - just like I got.

And blind belief is bad, I agree.

The thing however, is that rational and intellectually honest people simply say "I don't know" when they don't know........

And you never answered my question: Which one of the 20 some theories of how life started do you choose to put your "faith" in?

There's no reason to put any "faith" in anything.
There are several hypothesis about how life came to be and every one of them is under investigation.

Until they come up with a solid supported theory, I'm perfectly content saying that science is working on it and that we don't know yet but have a couple of neat ideas.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So.....what's a species? Two breeds that mate and produce fertile offspring? Or are those separate species? I'm not sure you have a definition of it yet. (Or at least one you will follow consistently)

EDIT: But all these breeds belong to their respective Kind.

horned-dinosaurs.gif

small-dog-breeds-17.jpg

il_fullxfull.627566806_9irj.jpg

You didn't actually answer the question.

What is a "kind"?

Try to define it in such a way that I can take two random organisms and determine if they are the same "kind" or not...
 
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AV1611VET

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What is a "kind"?

Try to define it in such a way that I can take two random organisms and determine if they are the same "kind" or not...
A kind is a genus.
 
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Shemjaza

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Let's see. House-cat mates with Manx. Manx can mate with Jaguars. Jaguars can mate with Panthers. Panthers can mate with Lions. Lions can mate with Tigers. And all can produce fertile offspring. So why would I have any other illusion as to exactly what they are?

I'm dubious that you can take an unbroken line of living species from house cats to tigers... but I guess since Puma to Jaguar is possible, why not. (Manx is just a weird tailless breed of house cat, can you give me an example of one breeding with a Jaguar?)

I don't get why you are cool with [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] cats and Tigers "micro evolving" in only one or two thousand years at most (we have mummies of both house cats and lions), why is chimp and human diverging in several million years a problem?

I could get out the picture of hominid skulls, but I'm sure you've ignored it many times already.

anyone who believes evolution is an idiot.
Classy.

Evolution didn't need to develop everything at once, and traits and attributes could change their purpose througha process or scaffolding.
 
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Shemjaza

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A kind is a genus.
I was startled for a second there, then I remembered that you don't accept us being a part of genus homo, do you?

I assume you aren't willing to list this guy as being in our "kind":
Homohabilis.jpg
 
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juvenissun

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Nonetheless, it's still a false dichotomy.

You restricted the available options without any sensible reason whatsoever.

It is logic. Because we have no other options. Evolution, or Creation. No other choice.
 
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juvenissun

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No. That's exactly true.

When you have competing systems that reproduce with variation, you'll inevitably end up with a system that will evolve overtime and get more "specialised".

It's what genetic algorithms are all about.

That's what it does. Again, it's the inevitable outcome.

In a genetic algorithm, you do not find error when you look backwards. But in evolution, you find impossibility no matter you see it backwards, current, or forwards. You do not extend genetic algorithm, which is very very limited, to evolution.
 
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The Cadet

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It is logic. Because we have no other options. Evolution, or Creation. No other choice.
Panspermia? justa's ridiculous crossbreeding thing? Sheer unadulterated random chance some billion years ago? 8th dimensional space pixies? It's trivial to come up with completely baseless alternatives. There is no dichotomy between evolution and creation. Heck, even if god poofed the first life form into existence, evolution would still act on it! There is a dichotomy between naturalistic explanations and non-naturalistic explanations, but if you want to claim that your specific model of creation is the only non-naturalistic explanation, and that evolution is the only naturalistic explanation, then you're just wrong.
 
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juvenissun

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You can want and need an answer all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have one.

Inventing one won't help you.

I don't have one, you don't have one.
I am given one, which is very reasonable.
You don't want that one. (in fact, I don't really care you do or don't).
 
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juvenissun

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Panspermia? justa's ridiculous crossbreeding thing? Sheer unadulterated random chance some billion years ago? 8th dimensional space pixies? It's trivial to come up with completely baseless alternatives. There is no dichotomy between evolution and creation. Heck, even if god poofed the first life form into existence, evolution would still act on it! There is a dichotomy between naturalistic explanations and non-naturalistic explanations, but if you want to claim that your specific model of creation is the only non-naturalistic explanation, and that evolution is the only naturalistic explanation, then you're just wrong.

All these options STILL NEED evolution to develop and to continue. You can not escape the process of evolution, EXCEPT the creation.

In creationism, it is: Created, and Done.
 
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AV1611VET

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I assume you aren't willing to list this guy as being in our "kind":
Tell me who (or what) he is, and I'll let you know.

Skull recognition isn't one of my stronger points.
 
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juvenissun

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Out of 13,000 proteins the largest being millions of amino acids precisely placed in exact order, the smallest we know of is INSULIN which is 51 amino acids long.
there are 23 amino acids.
God made the body create only LEVO or left mirrored amino acids
Random chemical reactions without levo ensymes are created both dextro and levo rotatory amino acids or RED and BLUE

the red ones immediately will kill you
the blue ones will work
if random theory created cell
what are the odds of picking 51 amino acids in perfect sequence with 56 possibilities for each amino acid position which if a red on is used will kill the molecule?
ANSWER:
10 to the 71 power.
the waste products made before one good ionsulin molecule is made would fill 7000 billion universes with garbage molecules before one insulin molecule is made

that is one molecule
for a cell to work that has to be done a billion times per cell

and then that has to be done for each 13000 DIFFERENT proteins or hormones

1.7 x 10^ 131 power to make them all be created and it would take, at 5000 replications per second, 1x10^121 lives of the universe to do it
and the cell would die
because to survive it needs all 13,000 molecules simultaneously to work

anyone who believes evolution is an idiot.

I heard this from Duane Gish many year ago, except that it is not so elaborated.
I really like to see some experts who can make counter argument on this point. It is pretty convincing to me (a biology ignorant).
Thanks.
 
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The Cadet

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All these options STILL NEED evolution to develop and to continue. You can not escape the process of evolution, EXCEPT the creation.

In creationism, it is: Created, and Done.
Really? Those pixies, they do a damn good job...

Look, in the case of a dichotomy, it is not up to the person disputing the dichotomy to demonstrate a third option; it is up to the person claiming the dichotomy to demonstrate that it is, in fact, a true dichotomy. You've done no such thing. I have provided numerous possible explanations for how the current diversity of life could have come about without an ex-nihilo creation from your particular god. There no logical pathway from "evolution is false" to "therefore creation". If you think this is a true dichotomy, then please: prove it. Because if you can't, what you're doing is making an argument from ignorance.

(For what it's worth, yeah, it's hard to come up with alternative naturalistic explanations for phenomena on earth beyond the established, scientifically accurate ones. Science is hard, and coming up with just-so-stories is easy. Finding an alternative explanation for the diversity of life on our planet which incorporates all the evidence we have found and is not evolution is the kind of thing you get a nobel prize for.)
 
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DogmaHunter

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In a genetic algorithm, you do not find error when you look backwards.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. What "error"?

But in evolution, you find impossibility no matter you see it backwards, current, or forwards.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here either.... what "impossibility"?

You do not extend genetic algorithm, which is very very limited, to evolution.

/facepalm

Genetic algorithms are based on the evolutionary mechanism:
- fitness test
- reproduce with random variation
- repeat

How is that different from natural evolution?
 
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juvenissun

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Really? Those pixies, they do a damn good job...

Look, in the case of a dichotomy, it is not up to the person disputing the dichotomy to demonstrate a third option; it is up to the person claiming the dichotomy to demonstrate that it is, in fact, a true dichotomy. You've done no such thing. I have provided numerous possible explanations for how the current diversity of life could have come about without an ex-nihilo creation from your particular god. There no logical pathway from "evolution is false" to "therefore creation". If you think this is a true dichotomy, then please: prove it. Because if you can't, what you're doing is making an argument from ignorance.

(For what it's worth, yeah, it's hard to come up with alternative naturalistic explanations for phenomena on earth beyond the established, scientifically accurate ones. Science is hard, and coming up with just-so-stories is easy. Finding an alternative explanation for the diversity of life on our planet which incorporates all the evidence we have found and is not evolution is the kind of thing you get a nobel prize for.)

If you are so sure about it, then let take a look on one of the most promising alternative, which has a process of neither evolution nor creation. If there is such scheme, they I will honor you as a master of mind.
 
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