"Blind faith" versus "choosing to believe"

[stevevw]

Steve, these are some of the worst links to "evidence" I've seen on this site. The first two are abstractions of studies...they lack any info whatsoever on how these studies were done. You'll need that info if you want to convince anyone of anything. The last link is a blog...just someone's misunderstanding about atheism. The third is really one of the worst "studies" I've ever seen and I could spend all day poking holes in it if you like...just say the word.

AS to the first two references these are peer reviewed papers. There is considerable support for these findings across many areas of Psychology and philosophical sciences. You will have to either find a site that will allow you to access further info on this or purchase the papers. Here is another site where you may be able to access similar papers. But I wouldn't be dismissing something that you havnt completely checked out first.

Despite its considerable intellectual interest and great social relevance, religion has been neglected by contemporary develop- mental psychologists. But in the last few years, there has been an emerging body of research exploring children’s grasp of certain universal religious ideas. Some recent findings suggest that two foundational aspects of religious belief – belief in divine agents, and belief in mind–body dualism – come naturally to young children. This research is briefly reviewed, and some future directions.
http://philpapers.org/rec/BLORIN

As to the other sites they are there to add further perspective. Though they may contain some personal opinion they basically support what studies and peer review research has found. Religious ideas come naturally to people especially children. We all have an aspect of believing in things beyond what we can see. This is a natural part of our being and to deny it is denying a part of us as a total person physically, mentally and spiritually. Some will deny this and put all the emphasis on the physical and mental but I believe they are missing out on a dimension that can give a more holistic approach to life.

Studies are now showing that by including religion and spiritual components to recovery this will improve health outcomes. Those who use religion, prayer and spirituality in their life have better health outcomes in recovery and life expectancy. Whether its real or not is another thing. But belief is a powerful thing and has a real effect on peoples lives.

This research was done by two departments of the University of Oxford for over three years with 57 researchers in over 20 countries with more than 40 separate studies.
Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

Please dont reject these links based on its association to religion. It has links to all the scientific studies, peer reviewed papers and other scientific supports about how religion and belief can help and improve health outcomes. It was just better to link this site because it contains several further links rather than link each one individually.
Scientific Studies that Show a Positive Effect of Religion on Health
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religionhealth.html
Online Papers: The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Healing
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/coronary.html

These are links to scientific researched peer reviewed papers on the subjects.
Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioral therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15715760?dopt=Abstract
Religious belief, depression, and ambulation status in elderly women with broken hips.
Religious belief was associated with lower levels of depressive symptoms and better ambulation status.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2343920?dopt=Abstract

 

[Archaeopteryx]

AS to the first two references these are peer reviewed papers. There is considerable support for these findings across many areas of Psychology and philosophical sciences. You will have to either find a site that will allow you to access further info on this or purchase the papers. Here is another site where you may be able to access similar papers. But I wouldn't be dismissing something that you havnt completely checked out first.

Despite its considerable intellectual interest and great social relevance, religion has been neglected by contemporary develop- mental psychologists. But in the last few years, there has been an emerging body of research exploring children’s grasp of certain universal religious ideas. Some recent findings suggest that two foundational aspects of religious belief – belief in divine agents, and belief in mind–body dualism – come naturally to young children. This research is briefly reviewed, and some future directions.
http://philpapers.org/rec/BLORIN

As to the other sites they are there to add further perspective. Though they may contain some personal opinion they basically support what studies and peer review research has found. Religious ideas come naturally to people especially children. We all have an aspect of believing in things beyond what we can see. This is a natural part of our being and to deny it is denying a part of us as a total person physically, mentally and spiritually. Some will deny this and put all the emphasis on the physical and mental but I believe they are missing out on a dimension that can give a more holistic approach to life.

Many other biases also come "naturally" to us. This doesn't mean that we should accept whatever our biases lead us to believe. Such behaviour is antithetical to science.

Studies are now showing that by including religion and spiritual components to recovery this will improve health outcomes. Those who use religion, prayer and spirituality in their life have better health outcomes in recovery and life expectancy. Whether its real or not is another thing. But belief is a powerful thing and has a real effect on peoples lives.

Please dont reject these links based on its association to religion. It has links to all the scientific studies, peer reviewed papers and other scientific supports about how religion and belief can help and improve health outcomes. It was just better to link this site because it contains several further links rather than link each one individually.
Scientific Studies that Show a Positive Effect of Religion on Health
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religionhealth.html
Online Papers: The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Healing
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/coronary.html

These are links to scientific researched peer reviewed papers on the subjects.
Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioral therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15715760?dopt=Abstract
Religious belief, depression, and ambulation status in elderly women with broken hips.
Religious belief was associated with lower levels of depressive symptoms and better ambulation status.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2343920?dopt=Abstract

What do the purported health benefits of religion have to do with the truth of religion's claims?

 

[juvenissun]

Does that mean that a jellyfish or worm is not alive?

I'm still waiting on where the Bible specifically claims that humans are not found anywhere other than Earth...

I guess you want me to say: nowhere. But it won't do you any good. It is not legal document. You need to understand, which is very difficult, sometimes.

 

[juvenissun]

Does that mean that a jellyfish or worm is not alive?

I think most worms may not be counted as "alive". This is classified based on the definition.
I think this definition makes sense, and it does solve a lot of problems.

 

[stevevw]

Interesting studies often become overblown headlines. Here is a recent article illustrating the problem.

It all depends on who does the study. I notice the one you linked was done by Roy Morgan. As far as I know they are just a marketing research company and can make figures look like anything they want. It depends on the data and criteria they set and all the checks and balances that will determine the accuracy. But some of the studies and research are done by scientists who use proper methods so that they can get accurate results. This is a lot different to marketing companies.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It all depends on who does the study. I notice the one you linked was done by Roy Morgan. As far as I know they are just a marketing research company and can make figures look like anything they want. It depends on the data and criteria they set and all the checks and balances that will determine the accuracy. But some of the studies and research are done by scientists who use proper methods so that they can get accurate results. This is a lot different to marketing companies.

What on earth are you talking about? There is no mention of a "Roy Morgan" on the page I linked to.

 

[stevevw]

So babies are born as believers. Explain why so many believe so many different things. From today back to Cave Drawings. Yes babies can be brainwashed, because of a "need to understand". But you can't possible take from these studies the existence of god. The one you claim is real and all the others are wrong.

I'm not making any statements about which God is true. Just saying that we all have an inclination to believe in things beyond what we see. Some of the studies also included situations where there was no indoctrination. Even children in situations where they were subject to atheists thinking were naturally inclined to believe in the supernatural despite the indoctrination of the opposite thoughts. Thats why there has always been this thing about young kids having make believe friends and Disney making millions off make believe movies and kids so easily believing in Santa. It just comes naturally to them.

If anything this is knocked out of them from an over indoctrination of atheism which can be just as much a religious thought and belief. A skeptical world can destroy the thought of make believe and the possibilities beyond what we see. The trouble is it can go to much to the other extreme and then everything becomes cold hard fact and no one wants to take a chance on anything and they dont trust anything unless they are 110% convinced.

As for atheist not being real. Let me check the mirror.
Yes there I am.

You are entitles to your beliefs and I am not saying you dont believe there is no God. But thats the point its a belief as much as a Christian believes in God. The studies are saying that some people who claim to be atheists actually have more beliefs under the surface than they admit or even realize themselves. When it came to crisis situations such as facing death or where the pressure was on they began to reach out to God or something to help them. Its the same for people who even believe in UFOs, card readings, the stars and astrology, raki, crystals and the many other things that people turn to for insight and help. It is all to do with looking outside the material world for answers.

Mentally thinking things through by weighing the options pro and cons, back to believing in the tooth fairy. Isn't proof of any god. It shows man's frailty to understand and willingness to be led.

I may not be as black and white as you make out. It seems there is always an extreme view about belief and non belief. If you believe you are off with the fairies. If you dont you have your head screwed on properly. But there may be an element of belief that is vital to making a person complete. We may be multi dimensional beings and spirituality is a part of our existence and without it we lose an important component.

We will always need to balance things out by using all the aspects of our makeup and one without the other will be out of whack. If we go all spiritual and emotional and don't reason and rationalize we can go off on a tangent. If we get all calculated and statistical and dont allow ourselves to experience a trust and investment in something beyond the material world we may never know certain experiences that only come by letting go.

You might as well claim suicide bombers will get their virgins when they arrive in heaven. Because a man said it was true. When the suicide bomber was a little child.

No this is that irrational thinking that is not tempered with reason and logic. As I said we are three dimensional beings and one without the other can make up out of whack.

 

[stevevw]

What on earth are you talking about? There is no mention of a "Roy Morgan" on the page I linked to.

You obviously didn't look hard enough. If you read the first line after where the bold heading finishes. The first point states that New research from Roy Morgan reveals that there's no proof that chocolate consumption affects BMI.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You obviously didn't look hard enough. If you read the first line after where the bold heading finishes. The first point states that New research from Roy Morgan reveals that there's no proof that chocolate consumption affects BMI.

That's not the article I linked to. That's an image within the article, which serves as an illustration of what the author is talking about. You clearly didn't read the actual article.

 

[KCfromNC]

There are several testimonies from people who were alive at the time of these events.

Sure, I'd imagine we have various of writings from around 30AD from all over the world. Nothing to do with eyewitness testimony of Jesus or anything, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised that there's some sort of writing from someone somewhere that's survived to this day.

But what does a random bit of writing unrelated to anything in the Gospel stories have to do with evidence for them?

An atheist cannot (rationally) claim that the only way one comes to believe in something is through evidence and argument, and then in the next breath accuse Christians of having a blind faith...or beliefs built on zero evidence! Atheists who subscribe to both claims are contradicting themselves.

How many atheists do this? I'm guessing the number is vanishingly close to zero.

 

[paulm50]

Good evidence.

Then please show it.

I can point to a huge amount of evidence the bible is wrong. The tree of life and evolution. And being added to all the time.

And science will admit when it's wrong. The bible says Cain and Abel were farmers. We were hunter gatherers for 100,000s of years. This is proven with real evidence. And. Cave paintings prove this. Can you find one of men farming?

By the time of the bible stories, farming was essential for survival. We had become an organised society, too organised and numerous for a hunter gatherer existence. In some societies it was still possible until very recently for Hunter Gatherers to survive. For instance, Australia and the Americas.

 

[stevevw]

Many other biases also come "naturally" to us. This doesn't mean that we should accept whatever our biases lead us to believe. Such behaviour is antithetical to science.

I'm not sure if its a bias. I think the articles were saying that belief may be a natural part of humans irregardless of any bias. Its just a part of us like our inclination to be fearful in certain situations.

What do the purported health benefits of religion have to do with the truth of religion's claims?

Nothing as far as whether God is real or not. Though one can argue that the God that people believe in is what is guiding them to live better so they have good health outcomes. Afterall one could believe in a pagan god who demands they practice all sorts of things that can harm their health. But generally most non believers are constantly focusing on the negative things about religion. Here we can see the many positives and how belief and religion can help someone practically in life.

Whether this is because they are getting some sort of spiritual healing or is psychological or both is another story. I believe they may also be gaining some strength from their beliefs which empowers them to better things. I guess there needs to be more study as to what causes this. Believers will say its the holy spirit at work in peoples lives. Non believers will say its all in the head. Maybe its something that is to hard to really work out as its hard to test and definitely find out why as its very personal.

I also argue the same for things like helping the needy and generosity in general. The mission and driving force of belief and religion is all about self sacrifice , helping others others. So whether its to do with benefits for an individual involved in religion or helping others in life, religion and belief have many benefits and without it society would be far worse off. It brings into question those who think society would be better off without religion.

 

[stevevw]

That's not the article I linked to. That's an image within the article, which serves as an illustration of what the author is talking about. You clearly didn't read the actual article.

OK fair enough. But the writer is using that example for the sort of marketing research I am saying can be unreliable. All I am saying is yes surveys and studies can be misleading. But it all depends on the type of research they do and who does it. I would have more confidence in scientific research done by experts in their fields. The other thing is who is backing the research. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the studies that show things like chocolate and things like sugars being good for you were backed by chocolate and confectionery companies as well.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

OK fair enough. But the writer is using that example for the sort of marketing research I am saying can be unreliable. All I am saying is yes surveys and studies can be misleading.

And yet you're the one quoting overblown headlines.

 

[stevevw]

And yet you're the one quoting overblown headlines.

Who says they are over blown. They are backed by scientific support as well. Theres nothing wrong with using a catchy head line if you can back up your claims.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm not sure if its a bias. I think the articles were saying that belief may be a natural part of humans irregardless of any bias. Its just a part of us like our inclination to be fearful in certain situations.

You've just substituted "inclination" for "bias." The meaning has not changed. Neither has the meaning of my response: many other inclinations also come "naturally" to us. This doesn't mean that we should accept whatever our inclinations lead us to believe. Such behaviour is antithetical to science.

Nothing as far as whether God is real or not. Though one can argue that the God that people believe in is what is guiding them to live better so they have good health outcomes. Afterall one could believe in a pagan god who demands they practice all sorts of things that can harm their health. But generally most non believers are constantly focusing on the negative things about religion. Here we can see the many positives and how belief and religion can help someone practically in life.

Which has nothing to do with the truth of religious claims.

I also argue the same for things like helping the needy and generosity in general. The mission and driving force of belief and religion is all about self sacrifice , helping others others. So whether its to do with benefits for an individual involved in religion or helping others in life, religion and belief have many benefits and without it society would be far worse off. It brings into question those who think society would be better off without religion.

You are assuming that, without religion, people would stop being compassionate and no longer help each other. I see no reason to assume that at all. Religion is superfluous to ethics at the best of times, and an outright obstruction at worst.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Who says they are over blown. They are backed by scientific support as well. Theres nothing wrong with using a catchy head line if you can back up your claims.

That's the thing: they can't. The headline ("There is no such thing as a true Atheist") is so overblown as to be absurd.

 

[juvenissun]

Then please show it.

I can point to a huge amount of evidence the bible is wrong. The tree of life and evolution. And being added to all the time.

And science will admit when it's wrong. The bible says Cain and Abel were farmers. We were hunter gatherers for 100,000s of years. This is proven with real evidence. And. Cave paintings prove this. Can you find one of men farming?

By the time of the bible stories, farming was essential for survival. We had become an organised society, too organised and numerous for a hunter gatherer existence. In some societies it was still possible until very recently for Hunter Gatherers to survive. For instance, Australia and the Americas.

Indeed, it is a problem to me too.

However, I won't say the Bible says anything "wrong". The Bible is not clear on this issue. There still could be alternative interpretations.

And the Bible certainly does not have "huge amount" errors. In fact, I do not see ANY error in the Bible, even there are some unanswered questions. I may not prove that some issues the Bible says are true, but you can not prove they are wrong either.

In particular, if you do think the Bible has a lot errors, then you better not claim that you are a Christian. That would make you look pretty dumb.

 

[stevevw]

You've just substituted "inclination" for "bias." The meaning has not changed. Neither has the meaning of my response: many other inclinations also come "naturally" to us. This doesn't mean that we should accept whatever our inclinations lead us to believe. Such behaviour is antithetical to science.

When I say inclination I am meaning something that we dont consciously control. A bias tends to be something we choose because of our views about something in the first place. Where as what I am describing is a natural position like having fear when we face danger. People are not born with a bias. That comes as a result of life experiences and being influenced by others. But a person will experience fear as a natural instinct. Inclination is different to bias. An inclination according to the dictionary is a person's natural tendency or urge to act or feel in a particular way; a disposition.

Which has nothing to do with the truth of religious claims.

Thats right, and this post isnt about whether God is real or not. Its about belief and what role it plays in peoples life.

You are assuming that, without religion, people would stop being compassionate and no longer help each other. I see no reason to assume that at all. Religion is superfluous to ethics at the best of times, and an outright obstruction at worst.

No you are assuming that by limiting the options available and taking things to an extreme of just totally good and totally bad. There are many options in between. I am saying that religion can define what is good by giving a person a clear set of morals they can live by. That is what religion is all about and teaches its followers this everyday of their lives. Whereas secular society can certainly show a person what is good in the opinion of that society. A person can certainly assess and decide what is good within that society. But they are governed by all the different views and guidelines of that society.

Secular society wont always emphasize an important need to practice morality everyday. It is affected by a raft of things that can overtake morality. It can promote immorality. It can be influenced by corruption such as by money being a driving force that dictates peoples behaviors. In fact secular society is based on these things more than anything else. So there are many things that can affect peoples behaviors. But religion and when I mean religion I mean a belief of our society such as a christian belief which is specifically encouraging good behavior and helping others on a regular and consistent basis.

As a result the outcomes can be better for people involved as some of the studies show.It has to as we all know that a religious lifestyle promotes anti substance abuse, sexual morality, clean living, anti crime, ethical behavior ect. Of course not everyone who is a christian will conform but generally it promotes these things and encourages people to live like this. There are non Christians who live good lives as well so its not all one way traffic. But overall the end results show that religion has some good outcomes for people and society from the residual affects of promoting a good lifestyle.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

When I say inclination I am meaning something that we dont consciously control. A bias tends to be something we choose because of our views about something in the first place.

Wrong. We can also be unconscious of our biases.

Where as what I am describing is a natural position like having fear when we face danger. People are not born with a bias. That comes as a result of life experiences and being influenced by others. But a person will experience fear as a natural instinct. Inclination is different to bias. An inclination according to the dictionary is a person's natural tendency or urge to act or feel in a particular way; a disposition.

You changing the words in no way alters my point: many other biases/inclinations/dispositions also come "naturally" to us. This doesn't mean that we should accept whatever our biases/inclinations/dispositions lead us to believe. Such behaviour is antithetical to science. Do we need to go through the thesaurus entries for "bias," "inclination," and "disposition" before you address the substance of my point?

Thats right, and this post isnt about whether God is real or not. Its about belief and what role it plays in peoples life.

Earlier, you appeared to be arguing that our apparent natural inclination toward superstition somehow warrants religious belief. Are you admitting that this is not the case?

Secular society wont always emphasize an important need to practice morality everyday. It is affected by a raft of things that can overtake morality. It can promote immorality.

So can religion. In fact, I wish to amend my earlier statement: at best, religion is superfluous to morality; at worst, it is a catalyst for immorality.