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"Blind faith" versus "choosing to believe"

Ana the Ist

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Together, these studies consistently emphasize and support the notion that the cultural phenomena typically labeled as 'religion' may be understood as the product of aggregated ordinary cognition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10637620?dopt=Abstract
Some recent findings suggest that two foundational aspects of religious belief - belief in mind-body dualism, and belief in divine agents -- come naturally to young children.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181713?dopt=Abstract
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
http://www.science20.com/writer_on_...ist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982#ixzz3bisXOyvO
There is no such thing as a true Atheist
http://www.heavennet.net/writings/atheist.htm

Steve, these are some of the worst links to "evidence" I've seen on this site. The first two are abstractions of studies...they lack any info whatsoever on how these studies were done. You'll need that info if you want to convince anyone of anything. The last link is a blog...just someone's misunderstanding about atheism. The third is really one of the worst "studies" I've ever seen and I could spend all day poking holes in it if you like...just say the word.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There are several testimonies from people who were alive at the time of these events. But if you want to review the evidences for the Resurrection, start a new thread.

Let me re-state the point of this thread clearly because I want to stay on topic:
An atheist cannot (rationally) claim that the only way one comes to believe in something is through evidence and argument, and then in the next breath accuse Christians of having a blind faith...or beliefs built on zero evidence! Atheists who subscribe to both claims are contradicting themselves.

Joshua...there are literally zero testimonials from contemporaries of the resurrection. None. Even the bible came years after.

We don't need to start a new thread...you've been bringing up this point about "evidence" for several pages...yet when someone challenges you on it, you tell them to start a new thread.

I won't debate you on whether or not the "testimony" qualifies as evidence (even though I'm sure it doesn't) I just want you to tell us what this testimony is and who wrote it. Just give me one from someone who was there at the time of Jesus's resurrection. You keep claiming these testimonials exist....yet I don't think you've looked into it or you'd realize that no such documents exist.
 
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Joshua260

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Apologetics is off-limits for this forum.
Right. So if you desire, go into the Exploring Christianity forum and ask for evidences supporting the Resurrection. I can't guarantee I'll be in there, but I'm sure someone will be there to help you. That's one of my favorite subjects and I have studied it quite a bit, but right now I am focusing on philosophical arguments. I was surprised myself how good a case can be made for the Resurrection.
 
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Davian

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Your inputs are so thoughtful, and I appreciate them.

Yes, even Richard Dawkins acknowledges that he cannot figure out how life could have come from non-life on this planet. So instead of even considering the possibility of a supernatural influence,
How can one consider the possibility of something that cannot be defined in a manner that might differentiate it from the imaginary?
he actually believes that we were "planted" here by aliens!! (but of course, that only pushes the question further back).
You have misrepresented his position on this topic.

As for your position, regarding "how life could have come from non-life on this planet", does this imply that you believe that your god is "life"? Breathing, eating, metabolizing, excreting life?
 
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Davian

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Right. So if you desire, go into the Exploring Christianity forum and ask for evidences supporting the Resurrection.
I do not seek religion.
I can't guarantee I'll be in there, but I'm sure someone will be there to help you. That's one of my favorite subjects and I have studied it quite a bit, but right now I am focusing on philosophical arguments. I was surprised myself how good a case can be made for the Resurrection.
Convincing yourself of something that you already believe may not be an indicator of how good that case actually is.
 
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Joshua260

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Joshua...there are literally zero testimonials from contemporaries of the resurrection. None. Even the bible came years after.
The formation of the bible itself came years after around 200 AD, but the documents themselves can be dated back to within the first century. Paul's creed in 1 Corinthian 15 can be dated safely to within a decade of Jesus' crucifixion. Also Josephus wrote many things about the New Testament and he was a contemporary of those times.

We don't need to start a new thread...you've been bringing up this point about "evidence" for several pages...yet when someone challenges you on it, you tell them to start a new thread.
Because:
1. It's against this forum's rules to get into apologetics.
2. I want to stay on topic.

I won't debate you on whether or not the "testimony" qualifies as evidence (even though I'm sure it doesn't) I just want you to tell us what this testimony is and who wrote it. Just give me one from someone who was there at the time of Jesus's resurrection. You keep claiming these testimonials exist....yet I don't think you've looked into it or you'd realize that no such documents exist.
Let's be clear...no one I know of was present at the time of the Resurrection. I have noticed that atheists like to ask it that way and no, no one was an immediate witness to that miracle. But we have several testimonies about those who claimed to have seen the risen Jesus after he was crucified publicly.
 
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Joshua260

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You have misrepresented his position on this topic.
Nope. I saw and heard Dawkins say exactly that. He suggested that one explanation for how life arose on this planet was that aliens planted us here.
 
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Davian

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Nope. I saw and heard Dawkins say exactly that. He suggested that one explanation for how life arose on this planet was that aliens planted us here.
"...he actually believes that we were "planted" here by aliens!!"

"He suggested that one explanation for how life arose on this planet was that aliens planted us here."


Which is it?

And again, as for your position, regarding "how life could have come from non-life on this planet", does this imply that you believe that your god is "life"? Breathing, eating, metabolizing, excreting life?
 
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Pathfinder

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Per the forum guidelines, I'd like to stay on topic with this thread and not get distracted into a theological debate.

I have a simple question:
1. Many atheists claim that Christians have a "blind faith" (meaning that they believe something with zero evidence to support their belief).
2. Many atheists also claim that one cannot choose to believe something. Rather, they say that people only come to believe something through the evaluation of persuasive evidence.

Isn't it contradictory for a single atheist to simultaneously profess that both claims stated above are true?

Persuasive evidence isn't necessarily true evidence. So, if an atheist says there is zero evidence, it can be assumed it's meant that there's zero true evidence.

What persuades one person may not persuade another.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The formation of the bible itself came years after around 200 AD, but the documents themselves can be dated back to within the first century. Paul's creed in 1 Corinthian 15 can be dated safely to within a decade of Jesus' crucifixion. Also Josephus wrote many things about the New Testament and he was a contemporary of those times.


Because:
1. It's against this forum's rules to get into apologetics.
2. I want to stay on topic.

Let's be clear...no one I know of was present at the time of the Resurrection. I have noticed that atheists like to ask it that way and no, no one was an immediate witness to that miracle. But we have several testimonies about those who claimed to have seen the risen Jesus after he was crucified publicly.

So other than the bible, you have no one. Josephus wasn't even born until after the proposed date of Jesus's execution...so at best he heard the story second-hand. What makes matters worse though, is we know that the passage in which Josephus mentions Jesus is a lie. It was added well after Josephus died...by christians.

I understand wanting to stay on topic...I think you should. Every time you start insisting there's evidence for the resurrection, you're going off topic. You can't really call out other posters for responding to what you write.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You seem to make it a point of pride that you cannot satisfy an atheist's request for evidence of your claims.

Hi Arch,

It's been a while ...

Truthfully, I don’t really see myself as harboring a ‘sense of pride’ about my own epistemological beliefs (and perceptions), even though I am fully aware that they stand in contradistinction to those which atheists may hold, or even as other Christians may hold (surprisingly).

Perhaps what comes across to you as “a point of pride” is merely a manifestation of the epistemological matrix which presently exists within my head, a matrix that, like yours, has evolved from many personal experiences encountered during childhood and the rest of life, from hundreds of things learned at the university, and from the devouring of hundreds of books and journal articles over the years; my experiences, ideas, and sources are likely to be equally cogent to those you've encountered, but yet different.

Really, it has not been my intention to espouse a non-evidentiary epistemological position, especially not as “a point of pride,” but if I can’t “demonstrate” to you any evidences of Biblical truth, my apparent lack of effectiveness could be due to my not feeling compelled to believe that Evidentialism, Foundationalism, and Positivism afford anyone any kind of cognitive fortress, or to think that these three concepts serve as any kind of necessary epistemological starting point, particularly when religious faith is being evaluated. In other words, my present mental matrix tells me that despite the framework someone actually starts with, the whole epistemological endeavor leans more toward ‘Representative Realism’ than toward ‘Naïve Realism.’

Of course, I could be wrong, but upholding some kind of ‘pride of cognitive impotence’ isn’t something I’m trying to do. No one wants to be impotent, whether physically or mentally …

Peace

2PhiloVoid
 
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JGG

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That would force a new definition of life. Don't exaggerate the implication.

I'm asking what if we find a life form on another planet that fits the Biblical definition of life? It would not force a new one, but fit within the one you present. If such a life form is found, then the Bible is invalidated, correct?

Lev. 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh isthe blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

So, life is only that with flesh? What counts as flesh?
 
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JGG

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Then we should evaluate the evidences. There are always positive and negative evidences on things which is not scientifically clear.

Okay. Not exactly how I'd put it, but whatever .If there is evidence of other humans, is that not evidence against the Bible?

You keep asking the same question. What was wrong with my answer to that question?

I just want to make sure that the revised version of the question still stands. Are you saying that because we have not found x then that is evidence that x does not exist?

If we could not find any evidence of a murder, would that be an evidence of innocence?

Why don't you tell me?

But this all still belies my question: Where is the Bible's specific claim that humans don't exist anywhere except Earth?
 
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zippy2006

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Per the forum guidelines, I'd like to stay on topic with this thread and not get distracted into a theological debate.

I have a simple question:
1. Many atheists claim that Christians have a "blind faith" (meaning that they believe something with zero evidence to support their belief).
2. Many atheists also claim that one cannot choose to believe something. Rather, they say that people only come to believe something through the evaluation of persuasive evidence.

Isn't it contradictory for a single atheist to simultaneously profess that both claims stated above are true?

Yes, lots of atheists are inconsistent on this point. Some of them actually hold a modified version of 2, such that they themselves are unable to do such a thing but others are. Yet more careful thought dispels such arrogance.
 
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Joshua260

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So other than the bible, you have no one.
As I recall, you only asked for one. I delivered as requested.

I understand wanting to stay on topic...I think you should. Every time you start insisting there's evidence for the resurrection, you're going off topic. You can't really call out other posters for responding to what you write.
Actually, those that are getting into whether or not there is evidence, like yourself, are the ones going off topic.
As I said earlier, the point of the OP is that an atheist cannot rationally claim that we Christians have a blind faith (as in having zero evidence) and at the same time claim that the only way people come to believe is through evidence. The two claims are contradictory. Whether or not there is evidence (subjective, objective, real, or imaginary) is a different question...one in which several atheists on this thread keep asking about but only serve to detract from the actual question at hand.
 
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juvenissun

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I'm asking what if we find a life form on another planet that fits the Biblical definition of life? It would not force a new one, but fit within the one you present. If such a life form is found, then the Bible is invalidated, correct?



So, life is only that with flesh? What counts as flesh?

BLOOD.
Now, we need to define blood. That is the way to think.
 
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juvenissun

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Okay. Not exactly how I'd put it, but whatever .If there is evidence of other humans, is that not evidence against the Bible?



I just want to make sure that the revised version of the question still stands. Are you saying that because we have not found x then that is evidence that x does not exist?



Why don't you tell me?

But this all still belies my question: Where is the Bible's specific claim that humans don't exist anywhere except Earth?

Yes.
 
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