Dear Christian, why don't you ...?

[AV1611VET]

Concentrate on the word "considered".

Sure.

Is Thalidomide still considered a prenatal wonder drug?

 

[sandybay]

Faith isn't acceptance without evidence.

If there is evidence the very last thing needed is faith.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

False. The difference is the Bible MUST be believed on faith alone, while the ToE is either accepted or not (not "believed in") based on the evidence. IOW, one takes faith because there's no evidence, while the other has plenty of evidence on which to base acceptance (or not).

A good starting point.

 

[sandybay]

There is massive evidence for design in nature.

Unfortunately it's just not the kind of evidence that can be shared with others.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Am I to understand this post to indicate that I am a fan of AV?

No.

It's detrimental to any adult conversation.

Yes.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Unfortunately it's just not the kind of evidence that can be shared with others.

Not true. It is the kind of evidence that many many scientists refer to in their own papers. Dawkins speaks about the design seen in nature, Paul Davies, Lee Smolin too. They are not ID'ers either.

 

[selfinflikted]

Faith isn't acceptance without evidence.

Of course it is. What evidence (not personal anecdote) do you have that the Bible (and by extension your particular god) is true? This is why it is called "faith."

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Not true. It is the kind of evidence that many many scientists refer to in their own papers. Dawkins speaks about the design seen in nature, Paul Davies, Lee Smolin too. They are not ID'ers either.

(my bold)

I don't think he'd go as far as to call that much more than the 'magic of life' (or something like that*)

Have you read: *The Greatest Show On Earth?

 

[Oncedeceived]

(my bold)

I don't think he'd go as far as to call that much more than the 'magic of life' (or something like that*)

Your point?

Have you read: *The Greatest Show On Earth?

No.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Of course it is. What evidence (not personal anecdote) do you have that the Bible (and by extension your particular god) is true?

Amazing how that English word, has done more damage than good to generations of Christians.

Hebrews 11:1 (Message)

The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It’s our handle on what we can’t see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd.

---

I can only speak from and apophatic position and say, that when it comes to the matter of God, this is it.
However, when it comes to Jesus -- the express image of his exact likeness, there is evidence -- the sort which St. Paul was willing to give up if it was shown to be a lie.
It's out of this forums reach, but there is evidence for Jesus -- maybe not God, but God's unique Son, etc. Surely, you know this?
Plus the experience of religious belief can be examined by various sciences.

Bloink.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Of course it is. What evidence (not personal anecdote) do you have that the Bible (and by extension your particular god) is true?

Amazing how that English word, has done more damage than good to generations of Christians.

Hebrews 11:1 (Message)

The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It’s our handle on what we can’t see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd.

---

I can only speak from an apophatic position and say, that when it comes to the matter of God, this is it.

However, when it comes to Jesus -- the express image of his exact likeness, there is evidence -- the sort which St. Paul was willing to give up if it was shown to be a lie. It's out of this forums reach, but there is evidence for Jesus -- maybe not God, but God's unique Son, etc. Surely, you know this?

Plus the experience of religious belief can be examined by various sciences.

Bloink.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

No.

Have you read any of Dawkins' books?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Have you read any of Dawkins' books?

Yes.

 

[sandybay]

Unfortunately it's just not the kind of evidence that can be shared with others.

Not true. It is the kind of evidence that many many scientists refer to in their own papers. Dawkins speaks about the design seen in nature, Paul Davies, Lee Smolin too. They are not ID'ers either.

Talking about something is not evidence for that something.
What has seeing design in nature got to do with there being design in nature? some people see art in a rubbish dump.

Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder seeing what you want to see is also down to the beholder.
If you want to see design in nature good for you and if you want to invent a designer then go for it, just don't think what you see everyone sees, your need for a designer or a god is not shared by everyone, very few in fact.

I once knew a man who could not understand why everyone was not fascinated by model railways.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Have you read any of Dawkins' books?

I think he's yet to write "the" book, but did one awhile back about the magic of reality*. I might give that one a miss, but the one** I referenced (which OD, has not yet read) was a good starter for me.

However, I have learned more about evolution talking to biologists, than I have from those who don't feel the need to invoke the divine every five minutes (to obey the great commission etc.)

I'm currently reading his autobiography***. A bit slow going, but I think he still might emerge to be a great writer.

Nothing like Steve Winwood, but he's trying: ( A Devil's Chaplain****, was interesting )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOlZutHUI4o

~~~
* http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Magic-Reality-whats-really/dp/0552778052
** http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Greatest-Show-Earth-Evolution/dp/055277524X
*** http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Devils-Chaplain-Selected-Writings/dp/0753817500 (An Appetite For Wonder)
**** http://www.amazon.co.uk/An-Appetite-For-Wonder-Scientist/dp/0552779059

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

OD,
As I said I'd reply to your post, here it is:

Education in the US if you are to go into any of the Biological Sciences you become accepting of evolution and for me not being a Christian at that time made acceptance undisputed.

(note my bold)

Which of the biological sciences did you go into, and to what degree? i.e. what degree, which institutions.

I didn't have any problem with religion nor evolution as religion was not a part of my life.

So when religion became a part of your life, it led to problems with both religion and evolution.

When I became a full born again Christian I still just accepted what I had been taught and felt that it was not a problem either because I could accept both.

(please note my bold)

So was it before you became a 'full' born again Christian, that you first experienced problems with religion and evolution -- but once you were one, you 'felt' that is was not a problem because you accepted both?

Now, I find myself, questioning why I just accepted what I was told about evolution. I did so due to the authority I gave to the evolutionary Scientists in their own fields. I wasn't in the research part of the Sciences and relied upon those who were.

So you are working in a University Lab., or you were doing that -- but now you question your professors etc. Where were you studying and who were the evolutionary scientists you were studying with? You were impressed with their knowledge, correct?

Its about authority and the mistaken idea that Scientists remain unbiased and do adhere to scientific objectivity.

Were all your professors like that?

I am finding that evolution has become so ingrained into the mindset of Science that objectivity is no longer a desired trait.

You speak as one who has studied at many Universities, and met and talked to many scientists. Is that correct?

One must not question evolution. Ever.

Really, that doesn't sound right?

Well I am no longer blinding myself nor resting on the authority of men and women that have their own agendas.

Your professors sound like monsters.

I am glad for my education because it does give me an advantage in determining evolutionary claims and what is supporting them.

You sound like some of the religious folks I've met, who had religion shoved down their throats. They ended up hating it. They are seldom objective about it. It's almost impossible to talk to them about it.

So while I still believe that evolution as defined happens, I am deeply looking into old accepted evolutionary explanations about life forms and systems.

Why? I'd think you'd be glad to be rid of it!!!!

So my advice to you is this, remember that nothing in Science should be a given.

(refer my bold)

I guess in time, you'll get over your negative bias.

Nothing in Science should be off limits of discord or alternate causes.

Are you a teacher of Chaos theory*? (or something like that)

When something is appearing like dogma it is time to question it.

I don't think you'll find any dogs in science, Ma. It's all about 'em tiny maggots and pixie dust.

~~~
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Why don't I accept evolution as fact, there is enough science in favour of creation. But for me I have see way to many miracles to believe anything else. Below are two recent examples from my life (from my website).

Recently we had a family member in China who contracted a rare virus, a sickness from which few people ever survive. In China the woman was shifted from hospital to hospital with no one being able to treat the disease. Eventually she was taken in by a hospital in Shanghi. Where her condition worstened. She eventually entered a coma state, and was no longer responsive to treatment. A state in which she remained for a long time. As a family we all prayed for her to be healed, many were praying in China, and my wife asked me if we could pray also (here in Australia). She asked me to pray for her healing and for the salvation of her unsaved family members. I layed hands on my wife, and spoke out what she had asked. As I spoke I felt a very strong impression that many people would be saved. It was so distinct and intrusive that it made me almost withdraw back in shock. In China the doctors considered the situation and sent a death notice to the family, considering her to be no longer alive. The family prepared them selves by asking their close family members in China to come for the last viewing of the woman around 20 to 30 people. On that day, the father of the girl a Christian did not give up praying. As he was praying outside the room, he felt a very strong impression from God that his daughter was awake, and it would be a testimony of God's ability. He kept asking the doctors to let him in to see her, but the doctors felt it was impossible, that there was no reason to do this. Eventually they allowed the father in and they found her awake, out of the coma. Not long after the family arrived. On seeing what had occured many of the family members who did not believe in Jesus gave their lives to Him. Also some of the doctors who saw this happen also gave their lives to Jesus. The woman has been back for regular checks to the hospital, and is normal, and back at home.

Some times it is hard to gauge how your prayers are going. However I recently had an experience that showed me that God does answer our prayers in miraculous ways. We have a client at work who is involved in Market Research, I pray for my clients on a regular basis. One day as I was working on their Website God spoke to me and said "How would I like to work for channel 9?" Channel 9 is a major free to air TV channel in our country. I was shocked by it and did not know what God was suggesting, but took care with the Website incase it was put on TV. However around a month latter Channel 9 approached the very client who I was working for when God asked me the question. And their business was put on channel 9's program called A Current Affair. God is in control of the affairs of men. As a further encouragement another client who I pray for, a charity, was put on the front page of the white pages in Brisbane, one of the cities major business directories.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Talking about something is not evidence for that something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEK6WtHxNfw

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

'.... there is enough science in favour of creation. ....'

(note my bold)

Please share some of this 'science' ?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It has been many years since i studied this topic, so I am probably quite rusty. But I found enough evidence to keep me saved.

For a start there is not any evidence of transitional forms, I challenge you to get a true series changes for the species we have on the planet. I bet you can only get one or two animals that look like a transition. They just don't exist.

At the molecular level, mutations are almost always destructive, damaging cellular information, not adding to it. etc.

Anyway I don't have the time to go over all the arguments. Creationists do that. I am just a guy who has seen miracles, and many of them.

Do you believe in miracles?