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Govt free marriages

ValleyGal

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What verse is that?
There are marriage laws in Exodus, staring with the 7th commandment to not commit adultery. God goes on to give Moses all kinds of laws surrounding marriage and divorce. It is also peppered throughout the OT and the NT....
 
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ValleyGal

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Becasue it is the family law courts specificly that are especially corrupt. Most other areas of contract and criminal law in the USA are pretty good.

So just because the government is corrupt, do you abstain from voting? Or just because police are corrupt, do you engage in a car chase if they try to pull you over? By that logic, you need to never leave your house, never turn on your tv, never talk to another human being, because we are ALL corrupt....

You sign a contract you better uphold your end or the courts will make you pay. Not so in a "marraige contract", there are no consequences (mostly for the woman) for adultry, bad behavior, sexual refusal, out of control spending of the family finances, etc. The courts will hold men accountable for this kind of behavior but rarely hold women FULLY accountable because women can use kids as a shield to keep payments comming. Even in cases where there are no kids women can still get large pay outs even if they are the ones to break contract (especailly in states like Colorado).

Have you ever considered that this could be because women make less money than men and typically wind up in poverty after divorce - whether they are raising children or not? Or that a lot of couples decide that she should stay home to care for the children, only to have her husband desert her and leave her without education, skills or a job? As I stated earlier, you are only seeing your side of the coin... Imo, the laws are there to help protect women from being left destitute by men who abandon them. If men would "man up" and stay with the woman he vowed to love till death do them part, then the courts would not need laws like this to ensure that she will not be left destitute.

So yea its an issue. Powers of attorney are completely different areas of law.

The only area of criminal law women are treated with kid gloves is false rape claims. If a woman is found to have made a false claim she should get the same sentence the man would have got if the claim had stuck.

These sorts of injustices do drive behavior but I am frankly surprised that we have not seen macro scale consequences yet. Or maybe we have and I have just done a good job insulating myself from it.

Are you aware that most women will not even bother to report rape because it rarely leads to arrest; of those, it rarely goes to trial, and of those, even less are actually found guilty? And the number of women who report false claims is so incredibly small that using this as an excuse to not get married properly with a license is grasping at straws.

Family law courts think everything should be fair and equitable, no it should not, there is usually someone at majority fault and they should not get a cushy settlement. Poor behavior should have negitive consequences that potentailly lead to suffering. Thats how life works. When you start punishing good or neutral behavior you will get less people doing good because it is being punished.

I don't really care who is at fault.. .the fact is that if we were to use our marriage as a platform to demonstrate Jesus' ministry of reconciliation as our testament to the unsaved world, divorce would not happen. If we were to bend our knee in humility and service for our spouse, we would not need divorce courts. If we would obey scripture and have the integrity to live up to our vows, there would be no need for divorce law.

But sin leads to divorce. Sin is corrupt - just as corrupt as the courts who enact divorce laws. And we all know that we are all guilty... no one is without sin; we are ALL corrupt. It is a matter of self-righteousness to think you are too good to submit to family law.
 
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Stealth001

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Did anyone here consider or do a govt free marriage. Is this becomming more and more accepted socially and in most churches?

My wife and I have a "government free" marriage. We've been together roughly 6 years. Both of us are divorcees who had very negative experiences in the family court system with regards to our previous marriages. After much study and prayer we came to the conviction that it is best to leave the state out of your marriage. We found that we strongly agree with the Quakers as it pertains to marriage.
 
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South Bound

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There are marriage laws in Exodus, staring with the 7th commandment to not commit adultery. God goes on to give Moses all kinds of laws surrounding marriage and divorce. It is also peppered throughout the OT and the NT....

You said government laws, not commandments.

We're not the Nation of Israel.
 
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Stealth001

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In ancient Israel, marriage was a private contract between two individuals or two families. That contract is called the Ketubah. The groom and his father drafted a Ketubah with the assistance of a rabbi to ensure that it was in harmony with the Law of Moses. The bride and her father had to agree to the contract for the betrothal to be established. The wedding didn't involve an agent of the state or government. The wedding was planned and officiated by the groom and/or the father of the groom. Both families were expected to be in attendance. The bride's father then gave the bride to the groom and his family. This was witnessed by both families. The couple would then retreat to the Chuppah and consummate the marriage, making it recognized by both families. This Ketubah was more than a contract, it was a covenant. An agreement between the couple and God alone. The Ketubah prescribed all the expectations of the marriage and even various clauses and terms for divorce. So each Ketubah was unique and reflected the intentions of each family unit. There wasn't a one size fits all social contract. Divorce was handled in accordance to the law of Moses, as interpreted by the groom and a rabbi. Women didn't have the right to file for divorce. Upon a wife's violation of the Ketubah, the groom could have a rabbi draft a "get" (divorce decree). It took a few hours to draft and the rabbi typically charged what would be equal to about $300 in today's currency. This document permitted the man to send a woman out of his house and allowed her to remarry within the community. The wife and her family typically kept the dowry as her insurance should she be divorced. No child support or spousal support was ordered. To this day, the Jewish faith requires a couple to have a Ketubah for a Jewish marriage to be established, even if the couple is married under "civil law". And even if a Jewish couple has a "civil divorce decree", they must seek the "get" (Jewish divorce decree) to be considered truly divorced in the Jewish community. Thus marriage, as understood by Israel, was a private contractual agreement between the couple and a covenant with God.

Early Christianity had no form of wedding ceremony or procedure. In fact, the early church blessed marriages "ex post facto". This allowed the church to bless Roman marriage and Jewish marriages. In fact, the church even blessed a couple's marriage based on the couple's word that they had exchanged marriage vows, with no witnesses or corroborating evidence needed. This was standard up until the 1200's when the church began to require a posting in the parish prior to the marriage or to have a priest "witness" the marriage. Soon, during the 1500's, the church required priests to "validate" or establish the marriage through the authority of the church.

Protestants rejected the notion that the church had any real authority over marriage and then handed this authority to municipal governments. So, civil government has essentially been the authority over marriage for a little over the past 500 years.

Most civil governments began requiring "marriage licenses". The primary reason was to grant the state authority to set the terms and conditions of the marriage. This authority was used to deny mixed couples the right to marry in the United States up until the SCOTUS shot down such statutes as being un-Constitutional in Lovings vs. Virginia. These terms and conditions normally come into play today only should the couple seek a divorce.

When marriage licenses began to be issued by civil governments and municipalities in Europe and the Untied States many groups protested against the state's authority over marriage by establishing their own marital customs, denying the state involvement. One such group is the Society of Friends, better known as the Quakers. George Fox, founder of the Quaker movement stated:

"The right joining in marriage is the work of the Lord only, and not the priest's or magistrate's; for it is God's ordinance and not man's...we marry none; it is the Lord's work, and we are but witnesses." ~ George Fox, 1669​

Britain passed special tort laws to recognize both Quaker and Jewish marriages outside of the boundaries of the municipal Anglican marriage system.

In the United States most Quaker marriages were recognized under common law, as marriage was regarded as a "common right" or "natural right". However, as states began to drop common law marriage statues the pressure has been on for Quakers to embrace marriage licensing. A primary issue here is that Quakers do not have state licensed clergy to act as "agents of the state" by signing marriage licenses. Also Quakers continue to feel that marriage isn't the domain of the state and that it is an entirely private arrangement between a couple and their God. Here are some excerpts from "Faith and Practice":

"Quaker Marriage Procedure"...

"Marriage is a sacred commitment of two people to love one another in faithful partnership with the expectation that the relationship will mature and be mutually enriching. Friends know that marriage depends on the inner experiences of the couple who marry and not on any external service or words. Thus, the ceremony in which the couple enter into this commitment is performed by the couple alone, in the presence of God, the families, and the worshiping community. Both the solemnity and the joy of the occasion are enhanced by its simplicity."

"While most Friends’ marriage ceremonies conform to civil law, couples who do not want, or are not eligible to contract a legal marriage occasionally ask for a ceremony of commitment or a wedding under the care of the Meeting. The Religious Society of Friends has long asserted its freedom to conduct under divine leading marriage ceremonies not conforming to civil law."​

So, within the Quaker community many couples have marriages that are not recognized by the civil government. And it is viewed by the Quakers as entirely their prerogative under God to have it this way.

With the "government" rewriting divorce law with the adoption of "no fault" divorce statutes and establishing the legal recognition of "gay marriage" many deeply conservative Christians have begun to rethink their commitment to "civil marriage". Some have opted to bless private unions in "commitment ceremonies" or ceremonies of "Christian Matrimony" and leave the choice to be married under "civil law" entirely up to the couple. There is a movement of Southern Baptists doing this in Texas, a church advocating for this in Colorado (Mercy Seat), most Christian libertarians, and even a wide variety of Evangelicals who have signed, "The Marriage Pledge" (link: The Marriage Pledge).

So, yes, more and more churches are looking into this. And it is a growing movement. It resonates within our culture because nearly half of American couples have opted to live together because they feel that "civil marriage" as it is today offers little security and is essentially a "high stakes gamble".

At the end of the day... it's now up to individual pastors as to what unions they wish to bless. Will they bless only those in "civil marriages" or will they also begin blessing couples married in the eyes of God?

The evolution of marriage continues...
 
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WolfGate

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Probably mentioned already, but I'm not going to read the entire thread. Instead this anecdotal comment.

Position of our church is that Romans 13 requires us to be subject to the governing authorities, and therefore married couples should follow the "civil marriage" process. "Government free" would not fit within our beliefs.

Typically, churches perform for couples both the religious ceremony and the civil process. There has been preliminary discussion of potentially getting out of the civil process portion of marriage. Yes, that would require our members getting married to both go to the government for the civil process and then the church for the religious marriage. However, it would also help remove confusion among attendees at our church about the two different definitions of marriage - the governmental and the biblical. We really cannot do anything about the same word, "marriage", being used for both. But we can help assure the difference is understood.
 
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ananda

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Probably mentioned already, but I'm not going to read the entire thread. Instead this anecdotal comment.

Position of our church is that Romans 13 requires us to be subject to the governing authorities, and therefore married couples should follow the "civil marriage" process. "Government free" would not fit within our beliefs.

Typically, churches perform for couples both the religious ceremony and the civil process. There has been preliminary discussion of potentially getting out of the civil process portion of marriage. Yes, that would require our members getting married to both go to the government for the civil process and then the church for the religious marriage. However, it would also help remove confusion among attendees at our church about the two different definitions of marriage - the governmental and the biblical. We really cannot do anything about the same word, "marriage", being used for both. But we can help assure the difference is understood.
Yet the common Bible states this:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

How can you justify how a Christian couple, in light of this, submit themselves to enter into a three-way government-managed trust?
 
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WolfGate

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Yet the common Bible states this:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

How can you justify how a Christian couple, in light of this, submit themselves to enter into a three-way government-managed trust?

Obeying the law has nothing to do with being unequally yoked. By your logic we would not have to obey any civil laws, which directly contradicts Romans 13.
 
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ananda

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Obeying the law has nothing to do with being unequally yoked. By your logic we would not have to obey any civil laws, which directly contradicts Romans 13.
The law does not require State "marriages". They are only required if you want the State to 1. formally recognize your State created corporate trust aka "marriage", and 2. administer/govern the trust.
 
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Stealth001

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Yet the common Bible states this:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

How can you justify how a Christian couple, in light of this, submit themselves to enter into a three-way government-managed trust?

Good point...

The other issue at hand is how "civil marriage" binds a couple to resolve any divorce or dispute in the "civil court" system. In the New Testament Paul admonishes Christians NOT to go before the unbelieving court systems of their day:

1 Corinthians 6:1-8 (ESV)
1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

To Paul, the church should be able to administer proper arbitration as it relates to various issues and disputes pertaining to this life. Paul explains that it would be better to walk away "suffering wrong" and being "defrauded" than to go before the world's court system to settle these matters.

In addition, when addressing Christians married to unbelievers who wish to abandon the marital union, Paul writes...

I Corinthians 7:15 (ESV)
15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

In other words, Paul would have the unbelieving depart from the union peacefully. The believing spouse is then released from their obligations concerning this union upon the unbelieving spouse's departure. However, in a "civil marriage" the believer must take the unbeliever to court to have the marriage dissolved. Thereby, the ability to simply allow the unbelieving spouse to depart in peace, leaving the believer freed from the obligations of the union, becomes nearly impossible.
 
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Stealth001

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Position of our church is that Romans 13 requires us to be subject to the governing authorities, and therefore married couples should follow the "civil marriage" process. "Government free" would not fit within our beliefs.

Interestingly, private government-free marriages are not "illegal". There isn't a single statute or penalty against them. However, those in such unions must realize that the government will not "recognize" their union for purposes of taxation, etc., without proper powers of attorneys, wills, etc.

Quakers have been blessing couples in marriages that are not recognized by the civil construct for hundreds of years.
 
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I actually stopped watching all TV and listening to all radio about 2 years ago. I leave my house to go to work (where I get some news online), and do things with my girlfriends family and my family as well as engage in sports, etc. However, anything dealing with money or property I make sure things are signed and notoraized and everything is legal.

Also you are aware that 70% of the divorces initiated are initiated by women NOT men. If a woman is the majority cause of a divorce she SHOULD be left destitute. When people steal from their employers or engage in some other unscrupulus behavior they can be fired and potentially left destitute, should the employer be forced to pay to support them for years after termination?

No fault divorce made the man the default consequence bearer. It is not relavent who makes more money, what is relavent is fault. WAY back in the day I would agree with you, men would leave there wife of 20 years who were good them and in THOSE cases the men should pay. Now days a guy might get a few good years of sex and then taken to the cleaners for the next 10-18 years and you wonder why guys dont want to get married or have kids. Your arguments apply to a bygone era.

My comment on rape was a separate issue. The reason its rare is becasue bonified cases of rape are rare (ie someone in a black ski mask breaking into a womans home and forcibly assulting her) most of the time there are poor decisions made on the part of the woman and she feels guilty and wants to call it rape but it really isent.

I will take being accused of being self rightious as I drive my new truck past the guy walking to work becuase his ex bleed him dry and as I fly a private plane around and live in a decend home because I doing believe in being stolen from. When the family law courts take huge sums of money it has real life coneqeunces that I dont want to deal with.

So just because the government is corrupt, do you abstain from voting? Or just because police are corrupt, do you engage in a car chase if they try to pull you over? By that logic, you need to never leave your house, never turn on your tv, never talk to another human being, because we are ALL corrupt....



Have you ever considered that this could be because women make less money than men and typically wind up in poverty after divorce - whether they are raising children or not? Or that a lot of couples decide that she should stay home to care for the children, only to have her husband desert her and leave her without education, skills or a job? As I stated earlier, you are only seeing your side of the coin... Imo, the laws are there to help protect women from being left destitute by men who abandon them. If men would "man up" and stay with the woman he vowed to love till death do them part, then the courts would not need laws like this to ensure that she will not be left destitute.



Are you aware that most women will not even bother to report rape because it rarely leads to arrest; of those, it rarely goes to trial, and of those, even less are actually found guilty? And the number of women who report false claims is so incredibly small that using this as an excuse to not get married properly with a license is grasping at straws.



I don't really care who is at fault.. .the fact is that if we were to use our marriage as a platform to demonstrate Jesus' ministry of reconciliation as our testament to the unsaved world, divorce would not happen. If we were to bend our knee in humility and service for our spouse, we would not need divorce courts. If we would obey scripture and have the integrity to live up to our vows, there would be no need for divorce law.

But sin leads to divorce. Sin is corrupt - just as corrupt as the courts who enact divorce laws. And we all know that we are all guilty... no one is without sin; we are ALL corrupt. It is a matter of self-righteousness to think you are too good to submit to family law.
 
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Stealth001

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Most haven't really thought about it... but "no fault" divorce law has become a major game changer. With a spouse able to freely leave a marriage and reap financial gain from it by taking the other to the cleaners in court... where is this "alleged security " supposedly promised in a "civil marriage"???

Now that a spouse can file for a "no fault" divorce practically out-of-the-blue... it appears that "civil marriage" has lost all it's "security" and has become a "high stakes gamble". Interestingly, cohabitation without "civil marriage" now offers far more security for both parties as it relates to property and income.

What protections or security does "civil marriage" provide that can't be provided through powers of attorney or wills??? Has "civil marriage" not become a serious high stakes gamble???
 
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pittsflyer

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I would whole heartidly agree except that in modern times the courts can track you via computers and continue taking money from you FAR into the future. Restrict your movement by canceling passports professional licneces and drivers licences. With the click of a few keys garnish any dividends wages or tax returns. They can make your life a living hell with relativly little effort.

I would rather deal with the criminal who can steal what I have on me at the time rather than the govt who can litterally steal my future.

Good point...

The other issue at hand is how "civil marriage" binds a couple to resolve any divorce or dispute in the "civil court" system. In the New Testament Paul admonishes Christians NOT to go before the unbelieving court systems of their day:
1 Corinthians 6:1-8 (ESV)
1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!
To Paul, the church should be able to administer proper arbitration as it relates to various issues and disputes pertaining to this life. Paul explains that it would be better to walk away "suffering wrong" and being "defrauded" than to go before the world's court system to settle these matters.

In addition, when addressing Christians married to unbelievers who wish to abandon the marital union, Paul writes...
I Corinthians 7:15 (ESV)
15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
In other words, Paul would have the unbelieving depart from the union peacefully. The believing spouse is then released from their obligations concerning this union upon the unbelieving spouse's departure. However, in a "civil marriage" the believer must take the unbeliever to court to have the marriage dissolved. Thereby, the ability to simply allow the unbelieving spouse to depart in peace, leaving the believer freed from the obligations of the union, becomes nearly impossible.
 
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ananda

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... When the family law courts take huge sums of money it has real life coneqeunces that I dont want to deal with.

Most haven't really thought about it... but "no fault" divorce law has become a major game changer. .. What protections or security does "civil marriage" provide that can't be provided through powers of attorney or wills??? Has "civil marriage" not become a serious high stakes gamble???
:thumbsup:

If anything, IMO Christians should be protesting against civil unions as unjust travesties foreign to the commandments of the Bible. Besides, civil laws governing divorces disagree with what the Bible commands regarding divorces. Another reason for Christians to forsake civil unions!
 
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pittsflyer

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I agree this is impossible because women almost always demand something in the 11th hour in order to let you "go in peace". And they are typically the ones that are already cheating and have a foot out the door OR they have obstinately refused to perform basic marital functions and just want to hang out while you support them.

I have known NO man that has walked out on a woman who was doing what he wanted in bed, doing her part at work and in the home and keeping up her looks and health. NONE.

Good point...

The other issue at hand is how "civil marriage" binds a couple to resolve any divorce or dispute in the "civil court" system. In the New Testament Paul admonishes Christians NOT to go before the unbelieving court systems of their day:
1 Corinthians 6:1-8 (ESV)
1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!
To Paul, the church should be able to administer proper arbitration as it relates to various issues and disputes pertaining to this life. Paul explains that it would be better to walk away "suffering wrong" and being "defrauded" than to go before the world's court system to settle these matters.

In addition, when addressing Christians married to unbelievers who wish to abandon the marital union, Paul writes...
I Corinthians 7:15 (ESV)
15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
In other words, Paul would have the unbelieving depart from the union peacefully. The believing spouse is then released from their obligations concerning this union upon the unbelieving spouse's departure. However, in a "civil marriage" the believer must take the unbeliever to court to have the marriage dissolved. Thereby, the ability to simply allow the unbelieving spouse to depart in peace, leaving the believer freed from the obligations of the union, becomes nearly impossible.
 
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Stealth001

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I've been in a "government-free" marriage for a little over 6 years. We call it a "Covenant Marriage", and sometimes, a "Quaker Marriage". It has been a tremendous blessing, and no church that we have fellowshipped has yet to challenge our being married. Of course we reserve the right to enter a "civil union" should we want to. But honestly, neither of us have the desire to. Our rings are testimony enough to our covenant.

Someone once asked me, "What if she just up and leaves you for someone else?"

Should that happen, she clearly doesn't "love" me. Nor is she taking our covenant seriously. Why would I want to use the threat of court to "coerce" her to consider staying with me when she really wishes to leave? Should she truly desire to leave me, why would I want to spend thousands of dollars to release her? Why would I want to put her in a position to have to spend thousands of dollars for her release? She isn't my property. Why would I want to be legally obligated to give her a portion of my income and half of my retirement? Is she not the one abandoning me? Why not just allow her to take what property is hers and call it a day?

They had no answer. lol
 
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Stealth001

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Our wedding (or commitment ceremony) was styled after the Quaker manner of marriage. We invited family and a few friends over to our home for my wife's birthday party. In the midst of the party we stood together and I addressed the group and explained that we had decided to enter into the covenant of holy matrimony through what is known as a "Quaker Wedding". I explained that in a Quaker wedding there isn't a priest or a preacher that officiates, but rather we enter into the covenant ourselves as a couple before God, friends and family serving as witnesses. They were very charmed and happy at the prospect of seeing this transpire. I took her hand, placed the ring upon her finger, and spoke the Quaker "promises" (Quakers don't give "vows"):

"In the presence of God and these our friends I take thee, to be my wife, promising with Divine assistance to be unto thee a loving and faithful husband so long as we both shall live."

She then took my hand, placed the ring upon my finger, and spoke the "Quaker promises":

"In the presence of God and these our friends I take thee, to be my husband, promising with Divine assistance to be unto thee a loving and faithful wife so long as we both shall live."

Our children then rang the wind-chimes and we kissed. Our friends and family cheered and we were embraced and congratulated. We then served up dinner, cake, and the party continued until later that evening. It was very modest.
 
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pittsflyer

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They never do, I have found most church goers don't really study the bible (not saying that I speak perfect ancient greek or have memorized the bible myself). That is actually look into greek roots for key words or look into context. Its more about peer pressure and control.

I have heard multiple church leadership from more than one church say they did not care about the majority of the bible only the parts they could use to control others or hit others on the head with (they did not say it in those terms but that is functionally what they were doing). They were looking for problems because do gooders get bored if there is not enough drama going on and since most people are not worshiping idols anymore nor have ashrae poles then as a do gooder you have to start stretching the bounds of what sin is in order to rope in more benign behavior so that they can feel justified in making others uncomfortable as part of "church disapline".

Obviously the biggest one is legal marraige becuase with out the licence you are "fornicating" (which is not in the bible) but it is in the NKJ and thats all they need to fuel up the persecution machine.

I have to remind myself that God is omnicent and is infinantly smarter than enstine so you would think he can look down and see the situation with family law. Wives dealing treacherously with their husbands (as opposed to the OT of the opposite).

Because marriage involves more than one person it is exponentially more complex sitatution which is why paul later came and said let a non believer depart.

I've been in a "government-free" marriage for a little over 6 years. We call it a "Covenant Marriage", and sometimes, a "Quaker Marriage". It has been a tremendous blessing, and no church that we have fellowshipped has yet to challenge our being married. Of course we reserve the right to enter a "civil union" should we want to. But honestly, neither of us have the desire to. Our rings are testimony enough to our covenant.

Someone once asked me, "What if she just up and leaves you for someone else?"

Should that happen, she clearly doesn't "love" me. Nor is she taking our covenant seriously. Why would I want to use the threat of court to "coerce" her to consider staying with me when she really wishes to leave? Should she truly desire to leave me, why would I want to spend thousands of dollars to release her? Why would I want to put her in a position to have to spend thousands of dollars for her release? She isn't my property. Why would I want to be legally obligated to give her a portion of my income and half of my retirement? Is she not the one abandoning me? Why not just allow her to take what property is hers and call it a day?

They had no answer. lol
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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If anything, IMO Christians should be protesting against civil unions as unjust travesties foreign to the commandments of the Bible. Besides, civil laws governing divorces disagree with what the Bible commands regarding divorces. Another reason for Christians to forsake civil unions!

Well, no, just because the government provides for divorce is no reason to hold back from marrying. My goodness, they aren't going to URGE you to have a divorce!

And of course, its perfectly possible to have a government free divorce even if you're married. Just start living separately and filing taxes separately, the deed is done. Of course, in such a case getting another marriage might be an interesting challenge, but hey . . . just live together, right?

Don't look for me to indulge in such antics.
 
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