Would it be wrong for God to let everyone into Heaven?

[RDKirk]

Correct me if I misrepresent what you mean.

So, if someone lives a good life and does not believe Jesus was God and they die, they will then be in a position to recognize Jesus was God and since they lived a good life (like a Christian) they will be allowed to enter heaven?

Hard to say.

I have no problem accepting that someone who never had a chance to hear the gospel can fall within that category--there is quite a bit of scripture to support that proposition.

In CS Lewis' example, the Calormen soldier had heard a sufficiently reprehensible intepretation of "the gospel of Aslan" (so to speak) that he could not accept what he had heard.

So what does "does not believe Jesus was God" actually mean on a case by case basis?

 

[Inkachu]

I know you weren't asking me that question, Bhsmte, but I'd like to respond as well.

IMHO God's grace and mercy are vast, and if a person simply hasn't heard the gospel (doesn't specifically know the name "Jesus") but realizes due to their own conscience, their human experience, and the evidence of creation (nature) around them, that there is a creator, and they perceive His nature (love, goodness, truth, justice, humility, etc; the "fruits of the Spirit"), understand their own flawed human nature and need for a relationship with their creator, and devote themselves to a relationship with Him, even if they never know the words "God" or "Jesus" or "Christian", then they would be saved and go to Heaven. God isn't confined to terminology, in other words.

 

[jayem]

Just to complicate the matter a bit more, there is a well-established Christian doctrine claiming that God has decided in advance who will be saved, and who won't. No one is saved by his own free will. This is a logical conclusion if one begins with the premise that God is totally sovereign.

 

[bhsmte]

So what does "does not believe Jesus was God" actually mean on a case by case basis?

[/QUOTE]

Simple, one does not buy the Christian claim that Jesus was God as credible and can not bring themselves to believe it is true even after analyzing the gospels.

Yet, this person lives a morally good life, which people are capable of doing while not believing Jesus was God.

 

[Inkachu]

Just to complicate the matter a bit more, there is a well-established Christian doctrine claiming that God has decided in advance who will be saved, and who won't. No one is saved by his own free will. This is a logical conclusion if one begins with the premise that God is totally sovereign.

That is far from being universally believed by all, or even most, Christians.

What would God's sovereignty have to do with it?

 

[Inkachu]

Simple, one does not buy the Christian claim that Jesus was God as credible and can not bring themselves to believe it is true even after analyzing the gospels.

Yet, this person lives a morally good life, which people are capable of doing while not believing Jesus was God.

They're rejecting God, because Jesus IS God. You know what God desires more than "goodness"? INTIMACY. Goodness is a natural consequence of intimacy with God. They don't have to be exclusive from one another.

So that's a nope from me.

 

[bhsmte]

I know you weren't asking me that question, Bhsmte, but I'd like to respond as well.

IMHO God's grace and mercy are vast, and if a person simply hasn't heard the gospel (doesn't specifically know the name "Jesus") but realizes due to their own conscience, their human experience, and the evidence of creation (nature) around them, that there is a creator, and they perceive His nature (love, goodness, truth, justice, humility, etc; the "fruits of the Spirit"), understand their own flawed human nature and need for a relationship with their creator, and devote themselves to a relationship with Him, even if they never know the words "God" or "Jesus" or "Christian", then they would be saved and go to Heaven. God isn't confined to terminology, in other words.

I am not referring to people who have not heard the gospels or know what they claim, because clearly, most people have.

I was a Christian for 40 years and heard the gospels yet, when I decided to really investigate them thoroughly, it was part of the reason I simply couldn't believe the story any longer and I only would have been fooling myself if I pretended that I did.

 

[keith99]

I've never heard much beyond the simple "those who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior go to Heaven".

What other theories are you hearing, and what groups, specifically, are saying them? I'm curious.

Well for a start How about those who say Lord, Lord didn't we prophesy and cast out demons in your name and get told 'Depart from me I never knew you'.

Going the other direction there are verses seeming to promise salvation to those who aid the chosen. Things about a cup of cold water and things being done for the least of His being in fact done for Christ himself.

If the Christian God is real and if the common image of judgement where one might even be allowed to speak in their defense then I'll say my chances are far better than most Christians. For most Christians if asked why will speak of their works or keeping the Law. I will at least have learned one lesson well and if asked why I should enter Heaven will answer, "there is no reason at all save for Your mercy".

 

[bhsmte]

They're rejecting God, because Jesus IS God. You know what God desires more than "goodness"? INTIMACY. Goodness is a natural consequence of intimacy with God. They don't have to be exclusive from one another.

So that's a nope from me.

Ok, thanks.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Sure, it pales in comparison. But since we can't compare to what we haven't experienced yet, I can definitely enjoy my earthly life to the fullest while I'm here. I don't feel deprived that I'm here and not in Heaven, but if it were reversed, and I'd been up there and had to come back here, I'm sure I would feel that way.

From your perspective, would it not be better to put yourself in situations that might make you more likely to "meet your Maker"?

If there is eternal bliss waiting for you upon your death, then don't you want death to come sooner rather than later? And wouldn't you want death to come sooner rather than later for all your saved friends and family? Why encourage life-saving drugs and medical treatments?

Maybe you should encourage your children to go play on a busy freeway?




I'm being somewhat facetious here, but in all honesty, I don't understand how an afterlife gives life greater value. To me, it seems like it always decreases the value of our life on Earth. It makes death the "great escape" --the ultimate vacation -- rather than something to be avoided.

 

[RDKirk]

Simple, one does not buy the Christian claim that Jesus was God as credible and can not bring themselves to believe it is true even after analyzing the gospels.

Yet, this person lives a morally good life, which people are capable of doing while not believing Jesus was God.

That would be questionable, IMO. That person is living what he himself judges as "morally good"--which could be anything.

The real "requirement" is the willingness to ultimately accept Jesus as moral authority. A person who has never heard the gospel may do that, as well as a person who has heard only a perverted version of the gospel--scripture gives indication of judicial leeway for both categories.

In the NT, there was one person described as having faith that "astounded" Jesus--that was the Roman centurion who introduced and characterized himself as "a man under authority." Being ultimately willing to accept authority is the key.

 

[bhsmte]

Simple, one does not buy the Christian claim that Jesus was God as credible and can not bring themselves to believe it is true even after analyzing the gospels.

Yet, this person lives a morally good life, which people are capable of doing while not believing Jesus was God.

That would be questionable, IMO. The real "requirement" is the willingness to ultimately accept Jesus as moral authority. A person who has never heard the gospel may do that, as well as a person who has heard only a perverted version of the gospel--scripture gives indication of judicial leeway for both categories.

In the NT, there was one person described as having faith that "astounded" Jesus--that was the Roman centurion who introduced and characterized himself as "a man under authority." Being ultimately willing to accept authority is the key.[/quote]

How do you know the real requirement is accepting Jesus as a moral authority, because your interpretation of the bible says so?

I would fall into the category of some atheists towards the Christian God, that used to be Christian, but when a thorough investigation into the gospels took place, believability of the same went out the window.

Did I hear a perverted version of the gospels? I don't think so, it was a matter of the more I learned of the historicity of the gospels, the less believable they became.

Each person has to reconcile the Christian story on their own and I simply couldn't reconcile the story any longer, when I accumulated knowledge I previously did not possess.

 

[Inkachu]

I am not referring to people who have not heard the gospels or know what they claim, because clearly, most people have.

I was a Christian for 40 years and heard the gospels yet, when I decided to really investigate them thoroughly, it was part of the reason I simply couldn't believe the story any longer and I only would have been fooling myself if I pretended that I did.

So, you're still referring to people who reject God and Christ, but simply lead a "good" moral existence?

 

[Inkachu]

Well for a start How about those who say Lord, Lord didn't we prophesy and cast out demons in your name and get told 'Depart from me I never knew you'.

OK, so what group would that be, in our modern times? Maybe the pentecostal/charismatic scammers? Or some other group?

Going the other direction there are verses seeming to promise salvation to those who aid the chosen. Things about a cup of cold water and things being done for the least of His being in fact done for Christ himself.

Sorry, but what do those verses have to do with salvation or going to Heaven?

If the Christian God is real and if the common image of judgement where one might even be allowed to speak in their defense then I'll say my chances are far better than most Christians. For most Christians if asked why will speak of their works or keeping the Law. I will at least have learned one lesson well and if asked why I should enter Heaven will answer, "there is no reason at all save for Your mercy".

Exactly. That's the crux of it right there. You can't work your way into Heaven. You either accept God's grace by faith or you don't. It's free to all so that nobody can boast and say "I'M going to Heaven cause I'm BETTER than all of you!"

 

[Inkachu]

From your perspective, would it not be better to put yourself in situations that might make you more likely to "meet your Maker"?

Of course not lol. He's got me here for a reason. He'll take me when it's the right time. It's not for me to decide that time.

If there is eternal bliss waiting for you upon your death, then don't you want death to come sooner rather than later?

Nope, I love life and I'm not eager to die.

And wouldn't you want death to come sooner rather than later for all your saved friends and family?

Nope. Life is beautiful. We're all here for a purpose, and that purpose isn't to get out as quickly as possible lol.

Why encourage life-saving drugs and medical treatments?

See above answer.

Maybe you should encourage your children to go play on a busy freeway?

Facetious or not, that's a horrible, horrible thing to say to a mother.

I'm being somewhat facetious here, but in all honesty, I don't understand how an afterlife gives life greater value. To me, it seems like it always decreases the value of our life on Earth. It makes death the "great escape" --the ultimate vacation -- rather than something to be avoided.

I don't think we should hurry death, and I don't think we should view it as the ultimate horror, something to be avoided at all costs. It's part of natural life for every single human being. It simply is what it is. It's a sad and unfortunate reality for mankind, but for believers, it's also a release from this flawed world and a doorway into the perfection that's to come next. So it's bittersweet, I guess is what I'm saying.

 

[RDKirk]

How do you know the real requirement is accepting Jesus as a moral authority, because your interpretation of the bible says so?

What did your interpretation tell you?

 

[jayem]

That is far from being universally believed by all, or even most, Christians.

It's far from being universally believed that the Bishop of Rome is infallible when he speaks as the successor of St. Peter on a matter of faith and morals. But it's well established doctrine for many Christians. How do you know it's incorrect?

What would God's sovereignty have to do with it?

Very simple. If God has total sovereignty over the universe, then everything that happens must be in accordance with his grand plan. Which would necessarily include who is saved.

 

[RDKirk]

Just to complicate the matter a bit more, there is a well-established Christian doctrine claiming that God has decided in advance who will be saved, and who won't. No one is saved by his own free will. This is a logical conclusion if one begins with the premise that God is totally sovereign.

You'll need to ask that question of one of those people who believe that.

 

[keith99]

OK, so what group would that be, in our modern times? Maybe the pentecostal/charismatic scammers? Or some other group?

Sorry, but what do those verses have to do with salvation or going to Heaven?

On the first a literal reading would seem to limit it to the pentecostal/ charismatics. If I were Christian I'd be careful on that limitation, I think it can be seen to any who claim great works.

On the second perhaps a full citation will help:

Mark 9:40"For he who is not against us is for us. 41"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Matthew 25:34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

One might argue these teach a degree of salvation by works. I'd argue that it is not the works that matter but what they show about the heart of the person who either does such works or neglects them.

 

[bhsmte]

What did your interpretation tell you?

It tells me this:

If one does not truly believe jesus was god and accept him as your savior, a person is doomed regardless of the life they live. Also, those who do accept jesus as god and may have lived mostly a morally bankrupt life are saved from doom.

IMO, a morally bankrupt position.