Ministers threatened with jail and thousands in fines for refusing to marry gays

Status
Not open for further replies.

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
"Considering the RFRA (which I hate to break it to you, but it is also a piece of civil rights legislation) was signed into law more recently than the civil rights act, it trumps the Civil Rights Act from the 1960s where the two conflict." Statement by Garfield.

He probably could have phrased his statement more eloquently but, unless a specific exception was made in some federal law I am not aware of, all federal statutes are subject to federal RFRA, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This does not mean, and should not be construed as RFRA is paramount to the Civil Rights Act or the Civil Rights Act yields at all times to the RFRA, when and where to two are alleged to conflict or a lawsuit is instituted alleging a conflict.
The bold portion here refutes his implied contention that the RFRA always trumps the Civil Rights Act. Especially given that his reasoning was that it would do so simply because it was more recently passed. There is no way to eloquently phrase his comment to make it go from incorrect to correct.

BTW, with regards to this comment;

all federal statutes are subject to federal RFRA, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

aren't the RFRA and all other statues also subject to the Civil Rights Act?
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
I am quite familiar with the Burwell v. Hobby Lobby decision and you aren't illuminating any new information with your statement above. Well, I pause to state your characterization of the case above does not completely capture the entirety of what the "case was about" but I digress.

Is the word red herring and tangent weird or strange to you? Your comment above is irrelevant to the point under discussion and the point under discussion was whether the word "person" in the Idaho RFRA could include a business. Hence, I stated, "While this may seem weird or strange to you, the Hobby Lobby case was about what benefits a company can offer its employees, not what people they can refuse to serve as customers. I would love to see a closely held corporation claim that their within their legal rights to refuse to serve blacks or Muslims because of their religious beliefs and see how quickly the RFRA defense is shot down."
You didn't make the comment you have in quotes there, I did. Were you too busy trying to come up with a snarky response that you didn't bother to read what you copy/pasted?

Your comment above does not address this point. Hence it is not germane to the point under discussion and therefore a red herring, a tangent.
Apparently your claimed legal expertise does not define the terms red herring or tangent correctly. If it did, you wouldn't be trying to apply a case that was focused on what benefits a company can be forced to offer its employees as opposed to who a company can refuse to serve as customers.

:doh:This remark above was in response to my comment of, "In addition, Volokh's view is very relevant. Volokh offers a legal defense of the Hitching Post irrespective of the city's perceptions of the situation. This is rather significant because Volokh provides alternate reasons why the Hitching Post may be exempt."

It is mystifying why you are referencing Hobby Lobby when I never stated Volokh relied upon Hobby Lobby and indeed if one were to read the links, they'd understand Volokh's analysis isn't dependent upon and does not invoke the Hobby Lobby case. So, once again, your statement above is not an adequate reply since it does not address at all the substance of Volokh's position.
:doh:I referenced the Hobby Lobby case because you brought that case into the discussion in the next paragraph.

And again, in case you missed it before, "Don't take this wrong but I couldn't care less about Volokh's opinion."

Application of this ordinance to these ministers was a palpable concern, as Volokh discusses, and the city had not unequivocally expressed the point of view application of the ordinance would not necessitate pastor's perform a cermony. Hence, Volokh's analysis is relevant.
However a reasonable person would not interpret an ordinance that specifically references actions that "places of public accommodation" cannot do, as automatically applying to individuals. Last time I checked, individuals weren't places of public accommodation.

BTW, don't take this wrong but I couldn't care less about Volokh's opinion.

Please note for the second time, the only part of your original post to TLK that I was responding to was this;

Interestingly enough, the ACLU refused to contest decision of the chapel ministers, and apparently the city has reversed its position. The city's decision is a very prudent exercise of discretion.
So again, I don't care what Volokh's opinion is. I really don't.

I notice you fail to acknowledge the timeline of events showing that the city changed its mind following the Hitching Post's reorganization as a religious corporation. Something you claimed you couldn't find evidence of. Did you need more evidence?

I can be just as snarky and condescending as you so feel free to stop and have a conversation like an mature adult whenever you wish.
 
Upvote 0

GarfieldJL

Regular Member
Dec 10, 2012
7,872
673
✟26,292.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
You didn't make the comment you have in quotes there, I did. Were you too busy trying to come up with a snarky response that you didn't bother to read what you copy/pasted?

He could be having the same problem I sometimes have on this board when I try to quote people, where I just get a blank page, so I have to go back and enter each and every quote manually.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
He could be having the same problem I sometimes have on this board when I try to quote people, where I just get a blank page, so I have to go back and enter each and every quote manually.
Which doesn't change the fact that he didn't bother to go back and check to make sure he quoted the correct person. Especially given that he posted that particular quote twice.
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟517,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
aren't the RFRA and all other statues also subject to the Civil Rights Act?

RFRA is a statute creating a possible exception to federal laws. Hence, it is more accurate to think there maybe an RFRA exception to those federal laws.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
RFRA is a statute creating a possible exception to federal laws. Hence, it is more accurate to think there maybe an RFRA exception to those federal laws.
I don't see a difference in status/primacy between the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Civil Rights Act. Can you elaborate?

Also, why wouldn't there be a Civil Rights Act exception to those same federal laws?
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟517,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I can be just as snarky and condescending as you so feel free to stop and have a conversation like an mature adult whenever you wish.

Kettle calling the pot black and a hint of irony and contradiction. Imply I'm not acting like a "mature adult" and in doing so personally insult. Tell me, does a mature adult conversation include ad hominem like your remake above one with the contradictory tone? Oh the irony of this remark.

You didn't make the comment you have in quotes there, I did. Were you too busy trying to come up with a snarky response that you didn't bother to read what you copy/pasted? Apparently your claimed legal expertise does not define the terms red herring or tangent correctly. If it did, you wouldn't be trying to apply a case that was focused on what benefits a company can be forced to offer its employees as opposed to who a company can refuse to serve as customers.

First, this is a red herring because the original point was the word "person" in Idaho's RFRA could include a business. Your responses to this point have been red herrings and a tangent. Second, I cited to Hobby Lobby for no other reason than to illuminate it isn't unheard of for the word person to include a business for RFRA purposes. Hence, nothing you have said in response about the Hobby Lobby case has been germane to my point. All you have posted on this point is a bitter diatribe also constituting as a red herring to my point.

Recall, the point at issue was whether the word person in Idahos RFRA could mean a business and Hobby Lobby case was invoked to show it isn't at all unheard for the word person to mean a business. To this point you've said nothing relevant.

again, in case you missed it before, "Don't take this wrong but I couldn't care less about Volokh's opinion."
.

Then stop addressing his point.

However a reasonable person would not interpret an ordinance that specifically references actions that "places of public accommodation" cannot do, as automatically applying to individuals.
.

This is a pleasant legal fiction, and indeed not an accurate reflection of reality. What are places of public accommodation but entities composed of and ran by people. It is not as if public accommodations have a life of their own independent and separated from people.
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟517,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Which doesn't change the fact that he didn't bother to go back and check to make sure he quoted the correct person. Especially given that he posted that particular quote twice.

Posting from your phone is rather difficult to do and can lead to some errors. You'll live and get over it.
 
Upvote 0

keith99

sola dosis facit venenum
Jan 16, 2008
22,939
6,617
71
✟327,066.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
He could be having the same problem I sometimes have on this board when I try to quote people, where I just get a blank page, so I have to go back and enter each and every quote manually.

I get that some of the time and it seems to be post dependent. Retrying is no help, but other posts, even by the same poster are fine. At one point I was thinking it might be that i was on ignore by the poster, but that isn't it.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Kettle calling the pot black and a hint of irony and contradiction. Imply I'm not acting like a "mature adult" and in doing so personally insult. Tell me, does a mature adult conversation include ad hominem like your remake above one with the contradictory tone? Oh the irony of this remark.
Just replying in kind to how I was treated. I assumed from the Golden Rule that since you were treating me with scorn and derision that was how you wanted to be treated and I was obliging you.

First, this is a red herring because the original point was the word "person" in Idaho's RFRA could include a business. Your responses to this point have been red herrings and a tangent. Second, I cited to Hobby Lobby for no other reason than to illuminate it isn't unheard of for the word person to include a business for RFRA purposes. Hence, nothing you have said in response about the Hobby Lobby case has been germane to my point. All you have posted on this point is a bitter diatribe also constituting as a red herring to my point.
This entire line of reasoning is a red herring because, as I have pointed out several times now, the only part of your comment to TLK that I was addressing was this;

Interestingly enough, the ACLU refused to contest decision of the chapel ministers, and apparently the city has reversed its position. The city's decision is a very prudent exercise of discretion.
Nothing else.

Recall, the point at issue was whether the word person in Idahos RFRA could mean a business and Hobby Lobby case was invoked to show it isn't at all unheard for the word person to mean a business. To this point you've said nothing relevant.
No the point at issue that I was responding to was this;

Interestingly enough, the ACLU refused to contest decision of the chapel ministers, and apparently the city has reversed its position. The city's decision is a very prudent exercise of discretion.
My post was very clearly a simple comment on why the city reversed its stance. Nothing more.

Then stop addressing his point.
I don't believe I have ever addressed his point. As I have stated once or twice, I couldn't care less about Volokh's point.

This is a pleasant legal fiction, and indeed not an accurate reflection of reality. What are places of public accommodation but entities composed of and ran by people. It is not as if public accommodations have a life of their own independent and separated from people.
However they are independent and separated from any one individual person when it comes to the rules they must follow. Therefore businesses have certain rules they must follow that transcend the individuals in the store at the time. Whatever employes are manning the store at any particular time must follow those rules as well.

Some of those rules are set by the owners, some are set by the government over the wishes of the owners. If the owners don't wish to follow the governments rules, there are ways around that. The Hitching Post found a way around city ordinance quite nicely. Without I might add, consulting Eugene Volokh.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟45,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Posting from your phone is rather difficult to do and can lead to some errors. You'll live and get over it.
Indeed I will. Had you not prefaced that paragraph with

"Is the word red herring and tangent weird or strange to you?"

I would likely have not said anything at all.
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟517,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Just replying in kind to how I was treated. I assumed from the Golden Rule that since you were treating me with scorn and derision that was how you wanted to be treated and I was obliging you.

Just replying in kind to how I was treated. I assumed from the Golden Rule that since you were treating me with scorn and derision that was how you wanted to be treated and I was obliging you.

Lol. No, you were portraying yourself as taking the "high road" but in fact chose not to take the "high road" while simultaneously recommending me to take the "high ride."

This entire line of reasoning is a red herring because, as I have pointed out several times now, the only part of your comment to TLK that I was addressing was this;

Sigh, it is unfortunate you have to be reminded of how incorrect you are with your statement above. Let's reminisce together, give me a beat! Okay in post number 581 you said:

According to the Idaho RFRA, their business has nothing to do with it.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (3) of this section, government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.

Their business is not their person.​

In post number 607 I responded to your indented comment above with "A few points. First, the word "person" can refer to a business and if I recall correctly, Idaho does have legal precedent for the word "person" to mean and include "business." Now, while this may seem weird or strange to you, this notion of the word "person" to include a "business" made news over the summer in the U.S. Supreme Court decision of Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, in which the federal statute of RFRA used the word "person" and under federal law "person" was defined to include, inter alia, "business."

Then in post number 618 you retorted with this stellar non-response, red herring, and tangent to my italicized comment above. You said in response:

While this may seem weird or strange to you, the Hobby Lobby case was about what benefits a company can offer its employees, not what people they can refuse to serve as customers. I would love to see a closely held corporation claim that their within their legal rights to refuse to serve blacks or Muslims because of their religious beliefs and see how quickly the RFRA defense is shot down.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the word "person" including "business" under Idaho's RFRA. Second, your retort demonstrates rather conspicuously you painfully misunderstood how Hobby Lobby was used by myself. I didn't invoke the Hobby Lobby case as any authority for the Idaho RFRA law regarding the meaning of person to include a business but rather Hobby Lobby was cited to illuminate the fact it was not unheard of or novel for the word person to include a business in an RFRA statute.

However they are independent and separated from any one individual person when it comes to the rules they must follow. Therefore businesses have certain rules they must follow that transcend the individuals in the store at the time. Whatever employes are manning the store at any particular time must follow those rules as well.

Yeah so? This has absolutely nothing to do with my comment of, "This is a pleasant legal fiction, and indeed not an accurate reflection of reality. What are places of public accommodation but entities composed of and ran by people. It is not as if public accommodations have a life of their own independent and separated from people." Now, recall my italicized remark was in response to your indented commentary below.

However a reasonable person would not interpret an ordinance that specifically references actions that "places of public accommodation" cannot do, as automatically applying to individuals.​

A reasonable person is going to understand it takes a "person" to comply with public accommodation law. In other words, a reasonable person isn't going to read and understand a public accommodation law will require a lifeless, brick and mortar building to not discriminate but rather a person, a flesh and blood human being, with human DNA, is going to comply with the public accommodation law.

If the owners don't wish to follow the governments rules, there are ways around that. The Hitching Post found a way around city ordinance quite nicely. Without I might add, consulting Eugene Volokh.

I award you no points for making an irrelevant and unnecessary remark about Volokh, especially since you have labored tirelessly you couldn't care less of his position, although his legal exposition is in fact relevant for me but not for you. Nice!
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟517,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Indeed I will. Had you not prefaced that paragraph with

"Is the word red herring and tangent weird or strange to you?"

I would likely have not said anything at all.


:cry::cry:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YeShallTread

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2012
1,589
240
✟2,637.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Do you take the bible being inspired by God on evidence, or is this something you take on faith?


It is written...have ye not read?


How does scripture interpret itself, without man to determine what the interpretation is?


The Holy Spirit doesn't teach us to read....He teaches us to understand what is written. When one verse explains another or gives deeper meaning then...it is written, have ye not read?
 
  • Like
Reactions: EdwinWillers
Upvote 0

YeShallTread

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2012
1,589
240
✟2,637.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm not sure which part of Romans 1 you believe applies. Could you be more specific?

God was specific enough...have ye not read?


I'm partial to Matthew 22:21 in this situation.


Ah, the chapter where Jesus is speaking to the wicked hypocrites. LOL The hypocrites trying, as some do here, to turn things upside down...good for bad and bad for good. Trying to place government over God. That is what you are "partial" to as are many liberals. I'm surprised you so easily confess this.


Matthew 22:18-22 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites? Shew Me the tribute money. And they brought unto Him a penny. And He saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto Him, Caesar's. Then saith He unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left Him, and went their way.​


What is Caesar's? What holds his image?


Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


As man cannot "serve God and mammon," what then is the moral of the above story?


Those serving mammon "left Him and went their way" because their way is not His way. When Caesar/government requires money/taxes, etc. then it must be paid. When God speaks then we render unto Him the things that are His. He is The Master we serve. His Word, not Caesar's changing ways and rules, are the things that are God's.

On this present topic...God has spoken and the government cannot change truth no matter how much it wants to be a flaming rainbow of color.





Again then logically you should agree that bans on discrimination against homosexuals should be overturned. Do you?


I think homosexual practices and approval of such practices should be overturned...don't you?


Nope. Going to a for-profit business that performs marriages and being discriminated against illegally is not the same as going to a pastor and be told he personally won't marry you.

Let's see:

Jesse Jackson:
“The culture has had to expand,” [Reverend Jesse] Jackson said at the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte last week in an interview for my SiriusXM OutQ radio program, discussing marriage for gays and lesbians. “For so long we thought it was a sin for blacks to have freedom. We thought it was a sin for black and white men and women to interrelate. We’ve grown in our appreciation of the fact that we live in our faith, and our faith may live under the law. All citizens deserve constitutional protections. You know, you have a right not to agree with interracial marriage but no one should be denied rights under the law.”

[snip]

HAHAHAHA. Jesse Jackson...what a joke! No more than a liberal has-been trying to gain more votes. That pretty much sums up the rest of your quotes...jokes, liberal jokes.


Including Biblical institutions such as slavery. Very sad.


Please provide the quotes and we can discuss them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YeShallTread

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2012
1,589
240
✟2,637.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yet theat is exactly what is happening.

Your arrogant condescenion is irrelevant.

[snip]

Thanks for your opinion.


You are more than welcome, always happy to oblige. :thumbsup:


"You can agree with me or
you can be wrong"

^_^
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.