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Christians, what would it take...

Ana the Ist

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No, you've already said that he's proven he's a god. But you also said that he said that Jesus is not God, which, by his own admission, admits that he is not the god of the Bible.

For the sake of this conversation, I have no problem believing he's a god. I just believe that, by stating that Jesus is not God, he's admitted that he's not the God described in the Bible.



Why isn't God's Word as revealed in scripture good enough for you to believe Him?

Uhhh...ok, the point was that he is the god though...the one and only. So if you want to word it as "he isn't the god of the bible" that's fine...but it's no different than there not being a god from the bible. This god is claiming he's it and there isn't any other higher.

So would you believe his statement? (Now that we've cleared that up)
 
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South Bound

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Uhhh...ok, the point was that he is the god though...the one and only.

Except the OP describes him as admitting that he's not.

So if you want to word it as "he isn't the god of the bible" that's fine...but it's no different than there not being a god from the bible. This god is claiming he's it and there isn't any other higher.

So would you believe his statement?

As I've stated several times now, of course not. Why should I believe his statement over the Word of God?

Why do you accept the ancient writings of men over the words coming from God Himself?

I don't.

If I understand the hypothetical correctly, this is the God of the bible. He's just letting you know the whole, Jesus thing isn't true.

The problem is that Jesus is the God of the Bible. If this "god" tells you that Jesus isn't God, then, by definition, this "god" isn't the God of the Bible.

So what do you do? Do you believe the ancient writings or do you believe the creator of the Universe, telling you they aren't entirely true?

How do I know this "god" is the creator of the Universe? And if this "god" is the God of the Bible, then He's contradicting Himself so how do I know which to believe? What He said then? Or what he says now? And, for that matter, why should I believe a "god" who can't even get his own story straight?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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As I've stated several times now, of course not. Why should I believe his statement over the Word of God?

Why do you accept the ancient writings of men over the words coming from God Himself?

If I understand the hypothetical correctly, this is the God of the bible. He's just letting you know the whole, Jesus thing isn't true.

So what do you do? Do you believe the ancient writings or do you believe the creator of the Universe, telling you they aren't entirely true?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Except the OP describes him as admitting that he's not.



As I've stated several times now, of course not. Why should I believe his statement over the Word of God?



I don't.



The problem is that Jesus is the God of the Bible. If this "god" tells you that Jesus isn't God, then, by definition, this "god" isn't the God of the Bible.



How do I know this "god" is the creator of the Universe? And if this "god" is the God of the Bible, then He's contradicting Himself so how do I know which to believe? What He said then? Or what he says now? And, for that matter, why should I believe a "god" who can't even get his own story straight?

I don't have the OP as describing god as anything but god. Whatever you think god "is" that's the god I'm speaking about...and he's telling you that christianity isn't true.

I understand that you think god is the god of christianity...that's why this is called a hypothetical. Obviously, you don't believe that your god would tell you that christianity is false...it would be silly of me to claim such a thing. I'm assuming you do understand what a "hypothetical situation" is...but if you don't I'll happily provide a definition.

Keep in mind that in this hypothetical situation...god has provided you with whatever evidence you would need to believe he was in fact god. God has also told you that christianity is false. I would even go as far as saying that if it was necessary for you to believe that claim...he would travel back in time with you to the days of Jesus's life and show you that he wasn't the son of god, god himself, or anything other than an ordinary guy. None of the stories of the bible really happened the way the bible depicts them, and Jesus eventually dies of a fever in his mid-forties.

So...with all that information (which hopefully clears up what I'm getting at in the OP) would you still believe in christianity?
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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I don't have the OP as describing god as anything but god. Whatever you think god "is" that's the god I'm speaking about...and he's telling you that christianity isn't true.

I understand that you think god is the god of christianity...that's why this is called a hypothetical. Obviously, you don't believe that your god would tell you that christianity is false...it would be silly of me to claim such a thing. I'm assuming you do understand what a "hypothetical situation" is...but if you don't I'll happily provide a definition.

Keep in mind that in this hypothetical situation...god has provided you with whatever evidence you would need to believe he was in fact god. God has also told you that christianity is false. I would even go as far as saying that if it was necessary for you to believe that claim...he would travel back in time with you to the days of Jesus's life and show you that he wasn't the son of god, god himself, or anything other than an ordinary guy. None of the stories of the bible really happened the way the bible depicts them, and Jesus eventually dies of a fever in his mid-forties.

So...with all that information (which hopefully clears up what I'm getting at in the OP) would you still believe in christianity?

I only entertain hypotheticals that are possible. It is not possible for God to tell me Christianity is false. So I do not entertain it.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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But it is possible for you to lose debates about that god. And I doubt you thought that possible... so hey, maybe more is possible than you thought.

I think it is possible for me to lose debates about God so there is no need for you to doubt that I think that.
 
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jacks

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From a strictly scientific view; if I was sure (no I'm not answering the extra credit question) it was God, I would believe anything He told me. Until then I plan to stick with the belief/philosophy that makes the most sense to me, Christianity. Like others I tried atheism and it just doesn't hold up to much scrutiny... not that you asked. ;)
 
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Ana the Ist

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I only entertain hypotheticals that are possible. It is not possible for God to tell me Christianity is false. So I do not entertain it.

That's a pretty amazing talent...knowing what god is and isn't capable of doing. Perhaps people should consult you before praying to god.
 
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Ana the Ist

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From a strictly scientific view; if I was sure (no I'm not answering the extra credit question) it was God, I would believe anything He told me. Until then I plan to stick with the belief/philosophy that makes the most sense to me, Christianity. Like others I tried atheism and it just doesn't hold up to much scrutiny... not that you asked. ;)

Lol no, I didn't ask...but that hasn't stopped anyone else either, so thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:

Personally, I think it's pretty brave of you to admit such a thing. I never really realized before I started this thread the power of the stigma attached to christians doubting their faith (not that you do) or even considering the possibility that christianity is false. It seems that such things are a big no-no amongst christians and the fact that you and leslie were able to despite that stigma is rather impressive. :clap:
 
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Eudaimonist

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I'd only disbelieve if Jesus came down from Heaven and said he wasn't God.

Oh wait.

Yes, but what if Allah comes down from Heaven, along with the human prophet Jesus, and they both tell you that the Christians have gotten some important details wrong about Jesus's life.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ViaCrucis

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If somebody dug up some bones in Palestine, and could demonstrate uncontestably that they were those of Jesus of Nazareth, the central claim of Christianity would have been falsified, and the Pope would be out of a job.

This, basically.

I would also add that while I would certainly be impressed by a super powerful cosmic being showing up, snapping its fingers, and pulling a universe out of a hat. That isn't quite the essential definition of Deity in my belief system. God is first and foremost the One made known in and by Jesus. A superbly powerfully profound being could show up and do all sorts of wonders, but if that is all it did and then proceeded to say that the Gospel is nonsense, then that--from where I sit presently theologically--disqualifies it from being Deity.

Which I think brings up another equally as interesting question (at least for Trekkies such as me). What is the difference between an encounter with God and an encounter with Q?

320x240.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
 
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Eudaimonist

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I would also add that while I would certainly be impressed by a super powerful cosmic being showing up, snapping its fingers, and pulling a universe out of a hat. That isn't quite the essential definition of Deity in my belief system. God is first and foremost the One made known in and by Jesus.

So you are just defining Deity as specifically the Christian God? If that "God" didn't create the universe, something is going to break down in your understanding somewhere.

Which I think brings up another equally as interesting question (at least for Trekkies such as me). What is the difference between an encounter with God and an encounter with Q?

Nothing, if Q visited Earth in the First Century as what people think of as Jesus Christ, according to your definition.

However, if Q is an evolved being in the universe (as presumably were Trelane, the Organians, and every other superalien species in Star Trek), then Q would not be God if God is defined as Creator of the universe. Q would just be part of the universe's ecosystem.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Josephus

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For you to stop believing in Christianity? Hear me out on this, as I know you're probably already thinking this is a "trolling" thread, but it isn't. It's intended as a philosophical question regarding the importance of evidence in regards to your belief in Christianity. Seriously...please take the time to read through the OP and consider it as a sincere question. I'll explain...

I've been on this forum for awhile and every few months or so a new christian to the forum decides to pop the same question atheists here have all seem many times over. They want to know what, if anything, would get an atheist to believe in god? The atheists, depending on how tired they are of hearing/answering this question, usually respond with some form of evidence that would get them to reconsider their position on the lack of an existing god. So this got me thinking...why does no one ever really ask the same question of christians?

Granted, it's not the exact same question, since I'm not asking what it would take to get you to stop believing in god. Rather, I'm curious as to what kind of evidence would make you stop believing in christianity? For example...

Say that god appeared before you and some friends one day and proved to you that he was in fact god. Whatever it would take for him to do this...whether it's parting a sea, bringing someone back to life, curing a paraplegic of a spinal injury and making them walk again, telling you every prayer you ever made...exactly as you made it...and whether or not he answered those prayers, showing you that he's able to create life or even a tiny universe from nothing....whatever it would take for him to prove to you that he is, in fact, the one and only god...he does this to prove to you that he's god so that you'll take what he tells you next seriously.

He tells you christianity is wrong...Jesus was just some guy...that pretty much the whole story of the bible is made up and merely a work of fiction. He tells you this because (for whatever reason) he's tired to people living by a made-up story. Then he leaves...not sticking[bless and do not curse]around to answer your numerous questions.

Would you stop believing in christianity? Why or why not? If you wouldn't...does evidence mean nothing to your belief in christianity? (I'm only asking this because whatever evidence "against christianity" you would have after this experience would be more than you had "for christianity")

Also, extra credit if you tell me what god could do to prove to you that he is god.

Actually, the Torah addresses this very scenario in Deuteronomy 13:1-6

1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.{P}

2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder,

3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them';

4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.

6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.{S}


There's just one problem with a new God claimant arising and doing what you said he could to prove he was G-d to me, and then say something that contradicts verse 1 above. Moses' G-d showed up first. He spoke to Moses and millions of people heard. Millions of people saw the miracles of the exodus from Egypt. No other god ever did so before. The G-d of Moses proved himself first before any other.

By right of first dibs in the proof department, He sets the rules for anything that follows. Including instructing us in the verses above that even if a prophet arises and performs miracles, if ever he contradicts verse 1 and speaks of a different god, G-d has already warned us not to believe him, and instead we are to view his existence and power as a test allowed by G-d to see if we will cleave to Him, and not a false god, and thus obey G-d's commands and not follow after a false god. Even if the false prophet performed authentic miracles.

Its the right if first dibs. Any other G-d claimnant has already missed out on proving himself.

If the collective memory of that generation of millions of Jewish people were erased, and no longer transmitted from generation to generation as to this very day, then and only then would there be reason to not believe in the G-d of Moses and to go shopping for an alternative.
 
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madaz

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The last two Christians I put this question to in real life, both said nothing would stop them believing in Christianity, even if they were shown good evidence that Christianity is a false religion, it would not make their faith in Christianity any weaker. They would always believe in Christianity no matter what.

Rather unsound reasoning if you ask me.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This, basically.

I would also add that while I would certainly be impressed by a super powerful cosmic being showing up, snapping its fingers, and pulling a universe out of a hat. That isn't quite the essential definition of Deity in my belief system. God is first and foremost the One made known in and by Jesus. A superbly powerfully profound being could show up and do all sorts of wonders, but if that is all it did and then proceeded to say that the Gospel is nonsense, then that--from where I sit presently theologically--disqualifies it from being Deity.

Which I think brings up another equally as interesting question (at least for Trekkies such as me). What is the difference between an encounter with God and an encounter with Q?

320x240.jpg


-CryptoLutheran

Didn't Q once admit his race wasn't always Godlike?
 
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Ana the Ist

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The last two Christians I put this question to in real life, both said nothing would stop them believing in Christianity, even if they were shown good evidence that Christianity is a false religion, it would not make their faith in Christianity any weaker. They would always believe in Christianity no matter what.

Rather unsound reasoning if you ask me.

Yea...and I'm beginning to wonder if that's really.the case for them or if it has more to do with the stigma attached to questioning one's faith or god that seems to pervade Christianity.

Edit: I find it so odd a pile of bones holds more weight with you than the word of god himself. Is that really the case?
 
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