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Wouldn't gender equality be a positive thing for all?

LinkH

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To me...it seems like knocking down the typical stereotypes (like the narrow definitions of what it means to be "feminine" and "masculine") would be a *good* thing---a liberating thing---that would offer *more* choices....more ability to "color outside the lines" so to speak and still be accepted.

Doesn't it emasculate men to have the idea that the bigger and stronger....less emotional kind of guy that has an occupation like lumberjack is more of a man than a guy that has an ectomorph build...is a writer/poet that is fluent in both articulating and being aware of his own emotions as well as the emotions of those he loves....and has no interest in sports?

Some stereotypes may not be useful. But we can tell by observation, and by statistics if necessary, that men tend to have more upper body strength, for example. Holding to some philosophical idea that men and women are 'equal' in terms of strength or other biological metrics is just silly. Men and women are not 'equal' in the ability to bear or nurse children.

These aren't really issues of equality. It's more about sameness than equality. The genders aren't exactly the same. There are a lot of areas where they are the same, and others where they are not.

What about child custody after a divorce? If the typical idea that women are the nurturers was taken off the table (which I think it has, in a lot of courts---thankfully) isn't that better for everyone? Shouldn't that be judged on more than just gender? Isn't there such thing as women that *aren't* the best sole custodial parent?

I agree this is a problem. Men can nurture, too, without being feminine, but sometimes in a different way. I was listening to a speech by Warren Farrell. He used to work for NOW in New York. He's popular with the men's movement nowadays. He's also an academic, a psychologist, I think, who does research on gender related issues. He seems a bit liberal, politically, from my perspective, but he does have a lot of good things to say.

He's argued that children raised by single dads tend to fair better than children raised by single mothers. Fathers, he has argued, teach empathy better than mothers. Children, he says, learn empathy by being told 'no' and by boundary setting. That teaches them to respect the other person's point of view. He argues that fathers tend to be a bit stricter with the boundaries than women.

A culture could believe that men and women have different strengths. If women's nurturing tendencies are valued, that doesn't mean they would have to get the children. If a society values men's tendency toward discipline, or being a provider, or whatever other trait (or stereotype), men can get custody in those situations, assuming the state interferes in the family as it does in ours.

If we are rewriting society, I think we should make divorces harder to get. There need to be grounds, at the very least. Or if divorce is no-fault, the one who decides to file without grounds should be at a severe disadvantage in getting custody. Covenant breaking and the willingness to put a child through the suffering of divorce should weigh heavily against a parent filing a 'no-fault' divorce in a custody battle. Children need parents who are honest and can honor commitments. If someone decides to 'blow up' a family, that should be a factor in child custody.

Attempts at gender equality have created a number of problems and social inequities, especially when society is trying to arrive at equality of outcome. Men tend to work longer hours, work more dangerous jobs, and work jobs that expose them to weather. Warren Farrell's research found that, controlling for a number of variables like these, women actually get paid more than men. Yet we still hear that men are paid more than women. Men tend to work longer hours. His research found that there is significantly larger pay on average for one working 44 hours a week than for one working 40 hours a week. Men tend to work more hours. The increase is not dollar-for-dollar per hour when we look at jobs like that. Men also tend to take hazardous jobs and are much more likely to die on the job.

Yet there are still hiring policies that favor women, government incentives for business women, scholarships for girls, etc. , and women complaining that the workplace is discriminatory.

I think our society would be a lot better if it let go of some of the Feminist ideology and valued some aspects of traditional male and female roles, while still allowing for freedom to work in different roles. Both father and mother roles need to be valued more. Men need to be appreciated more for being fathers. It needs to be a highly valued respectable thing. Women need to value staying at home, even if it means putting a career on hold or forgoing a career outside of the home. We need to value women who make these choices, instead of telling them they are wasting their education or wasting their lives by not pursing certain educational objectives. I think we've gone too far down the ideological rabbit hole.
 
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LinkH

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Back in the 1980's, there was a big push for the equal rights amendment, a rather simple statement of gender equality. But it did not go through, probably because both men and women had the good sense to realize that if there were a draft again, it is undesirable for most for the girls to be drafted. It doesn't sit well with a lot of men, or women. It would be bad enough for the state to impose this sort of thing on one's son, but on one's daughters? That's insane.

I believe it was the marines I heard about recently. They were eliminating the pull-up requirements necessary to be a foot soldier so women can enter. Very rarely could a woman meet their upper-body strength requirements. So instead of requiring every foot soldier meet up to a reasonably high standard of equal ability, the women were excused from the requirement. But does that really help the women or anyone? If they can't carry backpacks or pull soldiers up on a human wall if the get captured and stuck in a pit, who does that help? The standards lower for the sake of 'equality.' The women are probably more likely to get raped if a battle goes wrong in the middle east than the men are.

It makes sense to have some gender distinctions in our culture because there are biological differences.

This philosophy of doing away with gender distinctions has really wreaked havoc when it comes to marriage laws. Like our forum definition says, a union between one man and woman. That's what God instituted. Now, we have church-going people who think it is okay for a man to lie with a man as one does with a woman, to be an arsenokoite or malakos, one of those of whom Paul wrote that those who do such thing shall not inherit the kingdom of God. They think it's okay as long as some clergyman and the state approves the abomination and calls it 'marriage' in defiance against God.

That's another mess the gender-neutral philosophy has brought us. We should appreciate the fact that God made us male and female. Male is not female. And female is not male. And that is a really, really good thing.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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I believe Inkachu said it very well.

There is nothing wrong and everything right with not using gender stereotypes to dismiss behavior. Because of gender stereotypes, too many men measure their self-worth by the size of their paychecks, the bigger the better, and feel like a failure as a human being if they get passed over for that promotion. Likewise, too many women measure theirs by the size of their bodies, the smaller the better, and feel like a failure as a human being if they wear a bigger dress than they did last year.
 
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Ana the Ist

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To me...it seems like knocking down the typical stereotypes (like the narrow definitions of what it means to be "feminine" and "masculine") would be a *good* thing---a liberating thing---that would offer *more* choices....more ability to "color outside the lines" so to speak and still be accepted.

Doesn't it emasculate men to have the idea that the bigger and stronger....less emotional kind of guy that has an occupation like lumberjack is more of a man than a guy that has an ectomorph build...is a writer/poet that is fluent in both articulating and being aware of his own emotions as well as the emotions of those he loves....and has no interest in sports?

Wouldn't it be better for everyone if those ideas were something of the past?

What about child custody after a divorce? If the typical idea that women are the nurturers was taken off the table (which I think it has, in a lot of courts---thankfully) isn't that better for everyone? Shouldn't that be judged on more than just gender? Isn't there such thing as women that *aren't* the best sole custodial parent?

That's just the obvious things that come to mind.....but it really seems like more of a positive for everyone to be judged without these stereotypes than any possible negatives.

Are there even negatives?

Sure there are negatives...whenever you buck one of these gender "norms" you face ridicule from those around you who conform to the very same norms. I've rebelled against many stereotypical notions of masculinity my whole life. It's not even that I was always consciously aware that I didn't conform to some roles of masculinity...I just did what I liked.

Your example about sports is probably the most obvious to anyone who knows me. I don't follow or watch sports. I like some single competitor sports like boxing or tennis...but even those I hardly watch and never follow any athletes. So you can imagine then, the looks I draw from coworkers when they ask what I think about a player who got traded or if I'm going to watch the big game and I tell them I don't know what they're talking about. They assume that I've just been busy and haven't kept up with whatever is going on...then I casually explain that I don't follow that sport...or any others...at all. They look at me as if I've gone crazy...like I just said I'm planning to kill the president.

Overall, I think it's a good thing to challenge these notions of masculinity. They serve no real purpose other than being used as some arbitrary measuring stick of manhood by which men compare and look down upon one another. The more these standards are challenged, the less influence they have, the more we begin to value real aspects of a person's worth.

So there are downsides, but the net effect is positive.
 
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mkgal1

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Sure there are negatives...whenever you buck one of these gender "norms" you face ridicule from those around you who conform to the very same norms. I've rebelled against many stereotypical notions of masculinity my whole life. It's not even that I was always consciously aware that I didn't conform to some roles of masculinity...I just did what I liked.

Your example about sports is probably the most obvious to anyone who knows me. I don't follow or watch sports. I like some single competitor sports like boxing or tennis...but even those I hardly watch and never follow any athletes. So you can imagine then, the looks I draw from coworkers when they ask what I think about a player who got traded or if I'm going to watch the big game and I tell them I don't know what they're talking about. They assume that I've just been busy and haven't kept up with whatever is going on...then I casually explain that I don't follow that sport...or any others...at all. They look at me as if I've gone crazy...like I just said I'm planning to kill the president.

Overall, I think it's a good thing to challenge these notions of masculinity. They serve no real purpose other than being used as some arbitrary measuring stick of manhood by which men compare and look down upon one another. The more these standards are challenged, the less influence they have, the more we begin to value real aspects of a person's worth.

So there are downsides, but the net effect is positive.

Oh....I agree that going against the "norms" causes a person to uncomfortably stand out (daring to be different).....but I'm sort of perplexed at the small numbers of people (it seems, anyway) that agree that, in the end, it would all be worth it (for everyone, really). I just wonder *what* people are clinging to....and why they can't see that something better is possible (something that unites people....instead of the common gender "wars"). And, what you mentioned, allowing people to begin to value real aspects of a person's worth.

BTW....my husband also doesn't really follow any popular sport (he's a NHRA fan---drag racing). It's funny to us, whenever we go to practically any social event, when he gets asked the standard question you mentioned (and he *always* does, it seems)...."So did you watch The Game yesterday?". I'm very familiar with the look you mentioned.... :D
 
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mkgal1

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Hetta

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"stand firm like men"

So women can't "stand firm"? Are we weak and can't stand up?

That's the problem when people take a single line and interpret it literally.

I guess I'd better go and lie down because I stood in the line for Starbucks for 5 minutes and as I'm not a man, that was far too exhausting.
 
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mkgal1

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"stand firm like men"

Where do people even come up with these sorts of sayings, anyway?

My Bible (which, I assume, yours is the same?) doesn't have distinctions made like that....for instance:

"But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind."~James 1:6
 
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mkgal1

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Are you talking about 1st Corinthians 16:13, Link?

I can't say I am on board with the idea that's directly from God. Sorry. Paul may have penned it....and people of that time (and today) may "get it", because it will probably always be the standard to believe it's masculine to be strong.....but I just can't buy that's God's standard (to make that distinction). I don't know.....maybe it is a translation thing....I am not sure either way.


I believe Christ encouraged *all* of us to "stand firm in the faith" and praised a woman (and rebuked the men who were criticizing her) who was doing just that ("standing firm in her faith").

1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong.
 
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mkgal1

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Interesting. So it seems that the ESV and KJV (and a few others) are using "act like men" to mean "be courageous". I'm going to do a word study to see when the word "courage" is used to describe a woman (just out of curiosity).
 
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mkgal1

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There is a lot (IMO) that's interesting when looking at what "courage" means. I think it'd be interesting to sort of park there, specifically, for a bit.

Courage is not necessarily the absence of fear, but rather the presence of faith in action. See how making that a "man's attribute" practically cuts women out of the faith? Or at least taking part in the faith?
 
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LinkH

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MkGal1,

I looked up the passage in an interlinear. The word is andrizesthe. The interlinear renders it 'being ye manly.' The word even contains the Greek word for man.

But that is not to say women should not be courageous, also. But it does indicate a positive virtue associated with masculinity.
 
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mkgal1

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I saw that in the lexicon (the root word for that passage). I also noticed that was the only place in the Bible where that was used.

I just don't like the focus being placed on one gender over the other. Not that I want this thread to be another boys vs girls contest (I want the opposite, actually) but when thinking about "courage" a few women in the Bible come to mind:

Rahab
Vashti
Esther
Ruth
Mary Magdeline
Mary, the mother of Jesus
Deborah
Abigal
Sarah

That's off the top of my head.

Doesn't it benefit men to have courageous women in their lives? It benefited all Christians that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was courageous. It benefited Israel that Sarah & Vashti were. Doesn't it benefit men to share the courage (instead of them having to be the "strong and courageous" all the time while the women are the opposite)?
 
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tall73

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I saw that in the lexicon (the root word for that passage). I also noticed that was the only place in the Bible where that was used.

Yes and no. It appears 21 times in the LXX, the Greek Old Testament (still used by the Greek Orthodox Church, etc.).

And, according the Exegetical and Linguistic Key to the New Testament, it also appears in two passages of Josephus referring to fighting in battle, and is used also by Aristotle.

In a lot of the contexts in the LXX it is about facing enemies in battle or trusting in God to do so. Since it was often men who went to battle this may have something to do with their notion of courage being tied to being manly.
 
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WolfGate

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My whole thought on this topic is easy to sum up.

I agree the sexes should be equal. If a person is qualified (biblically or secularly depending on what it is) and has the desire and capability for a job or role in society they should be allowed to pursue that. So I believe in equality and where this is not a reality, yes, I agree it would be better for all.

I tend to like best women who have traits traditionally viewed as feminine and men who have traits traditionally viewed as masculine. Certainly when I was single, an androgynous female was not someone I was dating wise attracted to. So in this area, no, I do not believe men and women becoming more alike would be better.

Equal and identical are two separate concepts.
 
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mkgal1

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an androgynous female

This isn't quite what I'm meaning by "gender equality" (not that I have anything against an androgynous female).....but is that what comes to people's mind when they hear that term gender equality?

Does a woman choosing the profession of chemical engineer or a building contractor mean she has to appear androgynous? Isn't that an outward appearance? Isn't there *much* more than the external?

Equal and identical are two separate concepts.

Exactly....and we are talking about the former.
 
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