Did Paul preach Romans 10:9 to unbelievers?

[Hammster]

"Except it doesn't really say that, does it.
I know who he came to evangelize. But that's not what he says here."

This is vague and makes no argument. It does not point out 'the flaw' at all.

Then you missed the part where I said that it doesn't say what is being claimed.

 

[Hammster]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829613-6/#post65914408

I can't find that link anywhere in scripture.

 

[janxharris]

I can't find that link anywhere in scripture.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829613-6/#post65914408

What did Paul receive and pass on to the Corinthians when he first came to them?

1 Corinthians 15:1-3a
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance...

Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

The revelation that Paul received he passed on to the Corinthians when they were unbelievers. You cannot deny this. If it was the case that Paul was (in the letter) telling the now believing Corinthians about Christ's death for their's and Paul's sins, why write and specify the point in time when when he preached to them when they were unbelievers? Paul could be accused of ambiguity if, in reminding them of what he received by revelation which he before preached to them, he is actually telling them what is the case now. Reminding someone of what was said by indirectly quoting is confusing, but the tenability of your theology rests on just that.

 

[janxharris]

Then you missed the part where I said that it doesn't say what is being claimed.

Where does it say that Paul did not preach vv.3-4 to unbelieving Corinthians?

You have yet to explain why Romans 10:8c convinces you but 1 Cor. 15:11 doesn't. You said something about 'context'...you can't just throw out statements like this....it does not explain anything.

 

[Hammster]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829613-6/#post65914408

What did Paul receive and pass on to the Corinthians when he first came to them?

1 Corinthians 15:1-3a
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance...

Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

The revelation that Paul received he passed on to the Corinthians when they were unbelievers. You cannot deny this. If it was the case that Paul was (in the letter) telling the now believing Corinthians about Christ's death for their's and Paul's sins, why write and specify the point in time when when he preached to them when they were unbelievers? Paul could be accused of ambiguity if, in reminding them of what he received by revelation which he before preached to them, he is actually telling them what is the case now. Reminding someone of what was said by indirectly quoting is confusing, but the tenability of your theology rests on just that.

Where does it say "when I first came to you"?

 

[Hammster]

Where does it say that Paul did not preach vv.3-4 to unbelieving Corinthians?

You have yet to explain why Romans 10:8c convinces you but 1 Cor. 15:11 doesn't. You said something about 'context'...you can't just throw out statements like this....it does not explain anything.

Another argument from silence?

 

[janxharris]

Another argument from silence?

Where does it say that Paul did not preach vv.3-4 to unbelieving Corinthians?

You have yet to explain why Romans 10:8c convinces you but 1 Cor. 15:11 doesn't. You said something about 'context'...you can't just throw out statements like this....it does not explain anything.

 

[Hammster]

Where does it say that Paul did not preach vv.3-4 to unbelieving Corinthians?

You are making an argument from silence. No, it doesn't say that he didn't. But using your apparent logic, I can ask where does it say that he didn't preach naked while eating apple pie?

You have yet to explain why Romans 10:8c convinces you but 1 Cor. 15:11 doesn't. You said something about 'context'...you can't just throw out statements like this....it does not explain anything.

Convinces me of what? I'm not going to just assume your understanding of the two passages, when you can't even defend their use.

 

[janxharris]

You are making an argument from silence. No, it doesn't say that he didn't. But using your apparent logic, I can ask where does it say that he didn't preach naked while eating apple pie?

What Paul does say is that he reminds them of what he preached which saved them. He also says that he passed on to them what he received (a revelation form Jesus Christ - Galatians 1:12) and then states it. Verses 3 & 4 represent what was received and what he passed on. You seem to think he passed on something else.

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Convinces me of what?

Rom 10:8c convinces you that v,9 was preached by Paul to unbelievers.

I'm not going to just assume your understanding of the two passages, when you can't even defend their use.

Look, you accept Romans 10:9 was preached to unbelievers but won't accept 1 Cor 15:3-4. Why? One-liners won't suffice.

Is 1 Cor 15:3-4 the gospel? Yes or no? Does Paul say he preached it just as he says he preached the Romans 10:9 gospel? Yes or no?

 

[Hammster]

What Paul does say is that he reminds them of what he preached which saved them. He also says that he passed on to them what he received (a revelation form Jesus Christ - Galatians 1:12) and then states it. Verses 3 & 4 represent what was received and what he passed on. You seem to think he passed on something else.

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Your assumption, which isn't in the text, is that he's saying this is what he preached to them, and when they believed, they were saved. That is not what he says. You are reading your tradition into the text.

Rom 10:8c convinces you that v,9 was preached by Paul to unbelievers.



Look, you accept Romans 10:9 was preached to unbelievers but won't accept 1 Cor 15:3-4. Why? One-liners won't suffice.

Because he doesn't say that he preached that to them when they were unbelievers.

Is 1 Cor 15:3-4 the gospel? Yes or no?

He says it is.

Does Paul say he preached it just as he says he preached the Romans 10:9 gospel? Yes or no?

No, he doesn't.

 

[janxharris]

Your assumption, which isn't in the text, is that he's saying this is what he preached to them, and when they believed, they were saved. That is not what he says. You are reading your tradition into the text.

No assumption. I made a clear case - you haven't.

Because he doesn't say that he preached that to them when they were unbelievers.

Nor does Paul explicitly state that he preached v.9 to unbelievers...BUT YOU ACCEPT IT.

No, he doesn't.

THE WORD OF FAITH WE PREACH - you accept this.
THIS IS WHAT WE PREACH - you don't accept this.

You quite clearly are unable to defend your position. Vague one-liners won't suffice.

 

[OzSpen]

No, he wasn't. If he was a sheep, then Jesus was really confused. He thought that the lost sheep were wolves.

It's a Calvinistic theological system that is confused that won't admit that sheep can fall away from the fold through apostasy and be lost - as with Judas, and others such as Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:19), the latter shipwrecking their faith and being handed over to Satan.

 

[Hammster]

No assumption. I made a clear case - you haven't.

You've clearly stated your assumption. But you've not clearly shown (because it's not possible) that Paul is telling them what he preached to them as unbelievers.

Nor does Paul explicitly state that he preached v.9 to unbelievers...BUT YOU ACCEPT IT.

The context of his statements are different. He's actually talking about unbelieving Jews in Romans 10.

THE WORD OF FAITH WE PREACH - you accept this.
THIS IS WHAT WE PREACH - you don't accept this.

You quite clearly are unable to defend your position. Vague one-liners won't suffice.

You quite clearly can't substantiate your claim. Repeating it over and over as if you have will not suffice.

 

[Hammster]

It's a Calvinistic theological system that is confused that won't admit that sheep can fall away from the fold through apostasy and be lost - as with Judas, and others such as Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:19), the latter shipwrecking their faith and being handed over to Satan.

Do you ever tire of taking scripture out of context? Do you ever tire of accusing the Lord of being such a terrible shepherd?

 

[EmSw]

And if you pay close attention, you'll see Jesus' use of both metaphors and similes concerning his use of sheep.

Are you only a metaphor?

 

[EmSw]

No, he wasn't. If he was a sheep, then Jesus was really confused. He thought that the lost sheep were wolves.

Psalm 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I do not forget Your commandments.

So, you consider David a wolf. Hmm....

Jeremiah 50:6
My people have become lost sheep;

Then you must believe God's people are wolves.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...and the house of Israel were wolves to whom Jesus was sent. Hmm... Hmm...

It must be pretty confusing to remember what all you believe; therefore, I think you are confused, not Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please point out the line that says he preached that to them while they were unbelievers.

This kind of nit-picking is only a stall method to dodge reality.

The tenses are obvious. He preachED to them and they believED. He was reminding them of what he had preachED to them which they had believED.

But if that threatens one's theology, then it's expected that one will do anything but face that reality.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say "when I first came to you"?

Is this a demand for specific wording? The message is very clear in 1 Cor 15:1- I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

 

[Hammster]

Psalm 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I do not forget Your commandments.

So, you consider David a wolf. Hmm....

Jeremiah 50:6
My people have become lost sheep;

Then you must believe God's people are wolves.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...and the house of Israel were wolves to whom Jesus was sent. Hmm... Hmm...

It must be pretty confusing to remember what all you believe; therefore, I think you are confused, not Jesus.

Quite the opposite. Your post proved my point. Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

This kind of nit-picking is only a stall method to dodge reality.

The tenses are obvious. He preachED to them and they believED. He was reminding them of what he had preachED to them which they had believED.

But if that threatens one's theology, then it's expected that one will do anything but face that reality.

Last Sunday, and the Sunday before that, and the Sunday before that, etc., my pastors preachED the gospel. And I believED them. But I've been saved for years.