Experiential evidence for religion

[dlamberth]

But what you've described seems to just be ordinary, everyday occurrences.

I wouldn't say that they are ordinary, everyday occurrences. But I do think that they are more common than most people think. Again, I go back to the "experience" of aweness upon seeing a rainbow as an example. It happens, but it's a bit different than an ordinary occurrence.

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[GabrielWithoutWings]

What exactly would you say to someone whose brain is wired to be non-religious by default, such as someone with Asperger's Syndrome?

Every time I've tried simply praying, I felt like I was playing make believe, talking to an empty room. I don't understand people that can have intense, burning relationships with a concept or a force that may not exist.

 

[light upon light]

What exactly would you say to someone whose brain is wired to be non-religious by default, such as someone with Asperger's Syndrome?

Every time I've tried simply praying, I felt like I was playing make believe, talking to an empty room.

Well God isn't "out there", so your feeling is in some respect fully justified.

That feeling of "empty room" can also apply to our own sense of self. Which is also an illusion (just as the "God out there I am talking to" is).

I don't understand people that can have intense, burning relationships with a concept or a force that may not exist.

Because as one becomes conscious of their relationship with God and begins to act through faith, God is seen more and more manifesting within one's own life. One acheives a condition known as "certitude" in the Baha'i writings - that is, living in a state of confirmations from the Divine Reality.

Certitude isn't an absolute knowing - we don't know anything absolutely, other than that "I Am" (which is one of the names of God, in fact!) Certitude is knowing from personal experience that when we are aligned with God and open to God, amazing things happen that we can't explain. When we start living from that place, the idea of "proving" God is real becomes - irrelevant, even slightly humorous.

 

[light upon light]

But IMO that isn't experiential evidence for believing in a religion; it's just an altered mental state. I want to see the Red Sea parted.

What do you want to see, really?

Evidence for a transcendental aspect to reality that exists?

Evidence that consciousness is more than brain activity?

Evidence that (Moses / Jesus / Muhammad / Etc.) were speaking truth from "God", whatever that may mean?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I would say that the mystical experience is when we experience things that we cannot quantify through our normal sensory experience or rationale, and that lack of quantification presents a person with an element of mystery, a “just what was that” type of experience, and of course due to its lack of physical identifications that sometimes allows any repeat experience hard to come by. I’m sceptic at heart and have always been curious and asked folk ‘why’ they believe what they believe, if they are intent on sharing their views with me. Most revert back to doctrinal prose as the default setting, which is quite acceptable (for them) but it never answers my questions. Also I’ve never hoped for any experimental evidence regarding religions and their truths. I’ve been keen on understanding myself and the world I live in, and I used to quite like reading grounded self help books, then areas of neuroscience, psychology, the natural sciences and biology, then meditation practices (although I’m scant in my application) and in the course of that I’ve had experiences that have led me on certain paths and to certain understandings, and they have re-shaped who I am, but I have never been compelled to join any religion due to it being ‘truthful’, but can see elements of truth in all of them, and of course many have laws and social constructs of the time that are still enmeshed within those faiths today that really are not relevant to me and where I sit today.
Really a detraction from that part of ourselves that drives us in normal everyday life, (the logic and reason) is where the mystical experience lies, because it lacks solid structure generally, its hard to parcel up, and in the course of parcelling it up it loses something that others can’t relate to, because they then apply the logic and reason to something that didn’t have it originally. You can also lose something of yourself in the process of a mystical experience, you lose some of your identity due to this removal or detraction from your thoughts etc, even if its momentarily and fleetingly, which can be confronting to some extent, and of course hard to share.

 

[dlamberth]

What exactly would you say to someone whose brain is wired to be non-religious by default, such as someone with Asperger's Syndrome?

Every time I've tried simply praying, I felt like I was playing make believe, talking to an empty room. I don't understand people that can have intense, burning relationships with a concept or a force that may not exist.

My advice? Don't worry about it. Prayer or even God concepts aren't for everyone. But if you can feel thankfulness, find a way to express it. It helps a lot to be greatful if only to life itself. I say "Thank You" a lot during the day.

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[Eyes wide Open]

I'd say that a lot of work that Einstein did was from the place of a mystic. Many artist, when they really get into their work, work from the place of a mystic as do musicians and composers.


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This is my favourite quote.

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift.” Albert Einstein.

 

[dlamberth]

I would say that the mystical experience is when we experience things that we cannot quantify through our normal sensory experience or rationale,

I'm a bit confused because I think most mystical experiences are through those avenues of normal sensory experiences and rationale. For instance, the way Einstein worked one could say it was a mystical type of trajectory. He would follow his mathematical expressions as a particle to see what they did.

You can also lose something of yourself in the process of a mystical experience,

Mystics will say just the opposite. They talk about finding themselves.

you lose some of your identity due to this removal or detraction from your thoughts etc, even if its momentarily and fleetingly, which can be confronting to some extent, and of course hard to share.

Fear of the unknown is a tough one to overcome. I completely understand from where you coming from. But once overcome, there is a whole new world to explore.

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[cloudyday2]

What do you want to see, really?

Evidence for a transcendental aspect to reality that exists?

Evidence that consciousness is more than brain activity?

Evidence that (Moses / Jesus / Muhammad / Etc.) were speaking truth from "God", whatever that may mean?

That's a good question... Maybe I'll have a different answer after I think, but here are some ideas:
- If there is some task I'm supposed to do that I wouln't accomplish as an atheist, then I want a clear understanding of that task and some evidence that it isn't all in my imagination.
- If there is no task, then I'm not very interested in metaphysical questions. I would be a happy atheist, and even if God exists it wouldn't change how I should live my life.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I'm a bit confused because I think most mystical experiences are through those avenues of normal sensory experiences and rationale. For instance, the way Einstein worked one could say it was a mystical type of trajectory. He would follow his mathematical expressions as a particle to see what they did.

We would need to observe how Einstein literally worked. He was left handed, left handed people have a propensity to use their right hand brain hemisphere as a more dominant feature, as opposed to the left hand hemisphere (which right handed people use more dominantly) which drives our logic and reason. Many creative types are left handed but I believe Einstein had a natural lean towards intuitive guidance and then was highly skilled and obviously very intelligent and productive adding logic and reason to his intuitive drives. I've heard intuition described as the relationship between the head and the heart, a resonant aspect to our being. As you can see from the quote I posted, he followed his intuition, hunches, gut feelings and intuitive drives, also he dreamt about many of his ideas, then applied his faithful servant which was a massively impressive intelligence. Intuition stems from the brain operating in an Alpha brain wave state, it requires, stillness, mediation and a calm environment to present itself to us, focussing on ones breath within a busy environment will assist in that process which is an altered state not driven by sensory means, e.g eyes, ears, mouth, touch, smell etc, although all of those things can amongst certain conditions produce an altered state (or a more intuitive connected feeling) as well.

Mystics will say just the opposite. They talk about finding themselves.

The identity I was referring to was the 'self' as a singular experience, and yes a greater sense of self can be found but can initially be something confronting if one has operated with a strong sense of singular self, or large ego.

Fear of the unknown is a tough one to overcome. I completely understand from where you coming from. But once overcome, there is a whole new world to explore.

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Away from immediate adrenal response to imminent danger fear is created in the mind, our thinking aspect of self, normally projecting a future outcome on our present reality. Of course sometimes that is valid, but mostly its caustic, so I've found that my absence of fear is to find the right amount of balance regarding how I think and feel, and of course that is subject to my own environment and life. So I limit my future projection as much as I can and live in the present, and of course in doing so I release one of our greatest fears, which is the fear of death. Yes that present, 'presents' a whole new world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

What exactly would you say to someone whose brain is wired to be non-religious by default, such as someone with Asperger's Syndrome?

Every time I've tried simply praying, I felt like I was playing make believe, talking to an empty room. I don't understand people that can have intense, burning relationships with a concept or a force that may not exist.

There are many windows to reality - at least as many as there are sapient consciousnesses, and potentially much more than that. I do not hold much stock in exoteric tribalism that would argue that you MUST embrace a specific point of view in order to be saved/enlightened/liberated/operating thetan/whathaveyou. Nor in esoteric enthusiasts who'd elevate their own experiences to the status of Divine Pronouncement, often laying the groundwork for new exoteric structures.

Your window is as viable and as valid as anybody else's. I'd say that any person who tries to make the best of the information available to him or her is on the right path - what works for me does not necessarily work for you, and vice versa.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I will admit that I have something of a natural distrust towards people. When I'm told of mystical experiences and all that kind of stuff, I first question if they had any sort of hallucination or the like. I have never had anything close to what would qualify as a mystical experience. I have no belief that I ever will. When people talk of them, I truly feel like they have lost their minds even if I know they haven't.

Well, if you trusted to the personal experiences of others, we'd be back at square one. I don't think any kind of mystical experience, satori, or altered state of consciousness is required in order to have a meaningful life, to build an identity (collective or individual), or even to be religious/spiritual.
I do not think the point of life is to be "saved", or enlightened, or whatever a religion might teach on that account. Living it suffices completely.

Moving onto your point about me accepting the Torah but not accepting other's personal experience, the Torah has kept the Jews though very, very rough times. At the Seder we say that in every generation people rise up against us to destroy us and, quite frankly, history kind of bears that out. But we're still here so I put stock in the Tanach. We're still here, there must be something to what we're doing.

Well, I consider that more of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Jews have constructed a very cohesive collective cultural identity, which in turn encouraged them to keep apart from assimilating surrounding cultures (and to maintain their identity over the course of millennia), which in turn alienated them from their neighbours, which in turn led to tribalist frictions, etc.
And if perseverance in the face of adversity is so strongly built into the very fabric of this identity, it's no miracle that it'd thrive in times of persecution and animosity from others.

But if that works for you, who am I to gainsay it? It would not work for me - but neither would my personal experiences hold any value for you.

 

[Zoness]

I will admit that I have something of a natural distrust towards people. When I'm told of mystical experiences and all that kind of stuff, I first question if they had any sort of hallucination or the like. I have never had anything close to what would qualify as a mystical experience. I have no belief that I ever will. When people talk of them, I truly feel like they have lost their minds even if I know they haven't.

Moving onto your point about me accepting the Torah but not accepting other's personal experience, the Torah has kept the Jews though very, very rough times. At the Seder we say that in every generation people rise up against us to destroy us and, quite frankly, history kind of bears that out. But we're still here so I put stock in the Tanach. We're still here, there must be something to what we're doing.

What a fantastic post, I think that the first paragraph is especially important to me. Be it in the context of Paganism, Christianity, Islam...whatever! People describe these experiences that made them come to God but even when I was at my most religious and most faithful, I never once had anything that could be called a spiritual vision. I don't fall play to mass emotional manipulation because that simply isn't how my mind works, in the Pentecostal days I wasn't "filled with the spirit" I was just confused and uncomfortable about what was going on.

You're lucky that as a Jew, you have the Torah to go on and a long-running culture. I have nothing but my own experience which not only doesn't count for other people but barely counts for myself since I've never had "mystical experiences", its quite an unpleasant feeling to be where I am sometimes. I'd say I am vaguely jealous of the Jewish identity as I have nothing remotely close to that to identify with in my life. I mostly identify with the kinds of software projects I develop for online and the games I play with friends LOL.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, if you trusted to the personal experiences of others, we'd be back at square one. I don't think any kind of mystical experience, satori, or altered state of consciousness is required in order to have a meaningful life, to build an identity (collective or individual), or even to be religious/spiritual.
I do not think the point of life is to be "saved", or enlightened, or whatever a religion might teach on that account. Living it suffices completely.

And Judaism doesn't teach me the point is to be saved, enlightened, or whatever. I find most of Judaism's teachings to be practical and useful in my life. Sure, people always point to shellfish and bacon and stuff like that, but that's more the surface of Judaism not the meat.

Well, I consider that more of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Jews have constructed a very cohesive collective cultural identity, which in turn encouraged them to keep apart from assimilating surrounding cultures (and to maintain their identity over the course of millennia), which in turn alienated them from their neighbours, which in turn led to tribalist frictions, etc.
And if perseverance in the face of adversity is so strongly built into the very fabric of this identity, it's no miracle that it'd thrive in times of persecution and animosity from others.

Other cultures that had similar resistances did not stand the test of time when thrown among a larger group. They tended to be destroyed by force or by culture and eventually went away entirely with maybe a few lingering cultural items. But, yeah, it could just be that we were the ones that "hit the lottery" so to speak. I won't discount that as a possibility.

But if that works for you, who am I to gainsay it? It would not work for me - but neither would my personal experiences hold any value for you.

Different people are different.

 

[gord44]

I haven't had a real mystical experience either besides maybe some 'revelation' moments where I 'got' something. But a vision or something? No. I like what a few mystics have called true mysticism...Compassion for others, not some vision or experience.

The revelation moments are more like....wow....that's how that works and not anything 'mystical'. Like this Easter while reading some Hindu literature I after years of trying to figure it out, discovered that Jesus is truly The Lord of the universe. It was a wild revelation, but came with little fanfare or insight. No visions. Just a smile and a nod to myself.

 

[gord44]

Different people are different.

Wise words. If more people realized this, there would be more peace in the world

 

[Eyes wide Open]

What a fantastic post, I think that the first paragraph is especially important to me. Be it in the context of Paganism, Christianity, Islam...whatever! People describe these experiences that made them come to God but even when I was at my most religious and most faithful, I never once had anything that could be called a spiritual vision. I don't fall play to mass emotional manipulation because that simply isn't how my mind works, in the Pentecostal days I wasn't "filled with the spirit" I was just confused and uncomfortable about what was going on.

I think a lot gets lost in semantics and patterns of rhetoric that don't really mean that much. I first came here a couple of years ago and I'd never really heard abouts mystics and the like. I was curious to learn that many were vegetarian which was a big part of my own outlook. Although I didn't associate myself as a mystic I felt part of something wider that was relavant to people of all faiths on a spirtual path.

 

[Zoness]

I haven't had a real mystical experience either besides maybe some 'revelation' moments where I 'got' something. But a vision or something? No. I like what a few mystics have called true mysticism...Compassion for others, not some vision or experience.

The revelation moments are more like....wow....that's how that works and not anything 'mystical'. Like this Easter while reading some Hindu literature I after years of trying to figure it out, discovered that Jesus is truly The Lord of the universe. It was a wild revelation, but came with little fanfare or insight. No visions. Just a smile and a nod to myself.

"Golden moments" like when you finally understand a difficult math concept or in my case, solve a programming concept that's been plaguing you; that to me is the closest thing I can experience to a mystical encounter, and those moments are pretty great.

I think a lot gets lost in semantics and patterns of rhetoric that don't really mean that much. I first came here a couple of years ago and I'd never really heard abouts mystics and the like. I was curious to learn that many were vegetarian which was a big part of my own outlook. Although I didn't associate myself as a mystic I felt part of something wider that was relavant to people of all faiths on a spirtual path.

I think that mysticism is a concept that transcends any one religion, there are threads of mysticism that run through everything and that is OKAY to me, I just have a hard time taking other people's clearly subjective experiences as fact. That's a notorious expectation of certain new movements like Pentecostalism and the like. It's very difficult for me to understand and communicate through.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I haven't had a real mystical experience either besides maybe some 'revelation' moments where I 'got' something. But a vision or something? No. I like what a few mystics have called true mysticism...Compassion for others, not some vision or experience.

The revelation moments are more like....wow....that's how that works and not anything 'mystical'. Like this Easter while reading some Hindu literature I after years of trying to figure it out, discovered that Jesus is truly The Lord of the universe. It was a wild revelation, but came with little fanfare or insight. No visions. Just a smile and a nod to myself.

I like Jung's theory about syncronicity, I simplify it as like tiny pieces of a jigsaw fitting together to form a picture. We sniff about here and there living our lives collecting this and that, throwing some pieces of the jigsaw away due to having no image, or one that doesn't fit, and collecting the ones that do. Of course we don't often know we are doing it, until a picture is formed, and hindsight allows some understanding of some connected elements to life. By the way I came to the same understanding above that you did via Hindu literature.

 

[cloudyday2]

I haven't had a real mystical experience either besides maybe some 'revelation' moments where I 'got' something. But a vision or something? No. I like what a few mystics have called true mysticism...Compassion for others, not some vision or experience.

The revelation moments are more like....wow....that's how that works and not anything 'mystical'. Like this Easter while reading some Hindu literature I after years of trying to figure it out, discovered that Jesus is truly The Lord of the universe. It was a wild revelation, but came with little fanfare or insight. No visions. Just a smile and a nod to myself.

I'm curious about your Jesus revelation if you feel like going into more detail and if it can be explained in words.