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Why live at all?

Cute Tink

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I read about 95% of this topic (skipped some of the more monotonous stuff).

Here's my take: I make my own purpose in life. I don't need a purpose outside of myself. I don't care how one might seek to define that because trying to box my position with extra stuff does not mean I embrace anything else that comes with that box.

As to the OP: the reason I don't off myself is not because I want to suffer, it's because I want to enjoy the non-suffering part. I don't feel the need to avoid the suffering to that degree.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I think God is evident. You just choose not to acknowledge Him.


If God was evident, then humans throughout history would have had very similar views about what God is. Instead, we've had wildly varying views of mono or polytheistic gods, many of which are mutually exclusive or otherwise completely incompatible. Not to mention people who never developed the concept of a god (and yes, there are cultures that fall into that category).

Basically, if God was evident, there'd be no need to debate so much about him. The very reason forums like this exist is because God is clearly not evident, which calls for a lot of discussion or debate about what God is, or if it even exists at all.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Sure you do. You just choose not to acknowledge Him.


Are you calling all Atheists liars?

Secondly, if your assertion was true (and it's not), why would we choose to not acknowledge him? That makes absolutely no sense.
 
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Ken-1122

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If there is a scarecrow out in your yard, how do you know he is not made of snow?


Duh, because a scarecrow is made of straw right?

God BY DEFINITION is a necessarily existing being.
That all depends upon your definition of God. Some people were known to worship the Sun! Now if you wanna proclaim the Sun as your God; that's fine! But don't go proclaiming things to this God that the Sun obviously doesn't do!

Ken
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I think God is evident. You just choose not to acknowledge Him.

Ah. The 'everyone already knows god exists' argument. I love this one, because it utterly destroys itself.

Your assertion is predicated on information that you do not, and cannot possibly, possess. But I do possess it. All I need to disprove this assertion is knowledge of at least one person who does not know your god exists. As it happens I do know of such a person - me.

To put it another way, your argument is contingent on information known only to me. As such, you have effectively granted me the ability to discern, with 100% certainty, that your god does not exist. Thanks for that.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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If God was evident, then humans throughout history would have had very similar views about what God is. Instead, we've had wildly varying views of mono or polytheistic gods, many of which are mutually exclusive or otherwise completely incompatible. Not to mention people who never developed the concept of a god (and yes, there are cultures that fall into that category).

Basically, if God was evident, there'd be no need to debate so much about him. The very reason forums like this exist is because God is clearly not evident, which calls for a lot of discussion or debate about what God is, or if it even exists at all.

I think God is evident because He created the world and all that is within it. Humans included.

Since God is love, He would create us in such a way that His existence would be undeniable. And it is. Yet people deny He exists. The Bible speaks of such people as fools. Fools because in professing to be wise, they have become fools and worship themselves rather than the One who made them.

You see, subjects like sin and righteousness and worship and honor and reverence leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the proud. For the one who worships himself, worshiping God is simply not something he is willing to do.

Jesus said it so well when He said: "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?"

So we can get past the silly notion that you do not believe because there is no evidence. You do not believe because you do not like the fact that in believing, you must acknowledge you are not God. You would have to admit the world does not revolve around you but one greater than you. Disbelief stems from a refusal to honor God as He deserves. Disbelief is a result of idol worship, a deliberate and intentional violation of the first commandment.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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That all depends upon your definition of God. Some people were known to worship the Sun! Now if you wanna proclaim the Sun as your God; that's fine! But don't go proclaiming things to this God that the Sun obviously doesn't do!

Ken

Ah. The 'everyone already knows god exists' argument. I love this one, because it utterly destroys itself.

Your assertion is predicated on information that you do not, and cannot possibly, possess. But I do possess it. All I need to disprove this assertion is knowledge of at least one person who does not know your god exists. As it happens I do know of such a person - me.

To put it another way, your argument is contingent on information known only to me. As such, you have effectively granted me the ability to discern, with 100% certainty, that your god does not exist. Thanks for that.

P1 - Jeremy's god is a being that everyone knows exists
P2 - I do not know Jeremy's god exists
C - Jeremy's god does not exist

While we are able, let us get past the formalities and get to the heart of why you two are atheists shall we?

The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.
 
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Ken-1122

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I think God is evident because He created the world and all that is within it. Humans included.

Since God is love, He would create us in such a way that His existence would be undeniable. And it is. Yet people deny He exists. The Bible speaks of such people as fools. Fools because in professing to be wise, they have become fools and worship themselves rather than the One who made them.

You see, subjects like sin and righteousness and worship and honor and reverence leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the proud. For the one who worships himself, worshiping God is simply not something he is willing to do.

Jesus said it so well when He said: "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?"

So we can get past the silly notion that you do not believe because there is no evidence. You do not believe because you do not like the fact that in believing, you must acknowledge you are not God. You would have to admit the world does not revolve around you but one greater than you. Disbelief stems from a refusal to honor God as He deserves. Disbelief is a result of idol worship, a deliberate and intentional violation of the first commandment.
Perhaps you should find yourself a good "choir" to preach to. With us it would be more effective if you would at least attempt to answer some of our questions, or admit you can't.

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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While we are able, let us get past the formalities and get to the heart of why you two are atheists shall we?

The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.
I know of many people who say they are Christians, do not worship God the way you do. They never mention God, never go to Church, never honor, worship or give glory to the God they claim to worship. They just go through life as if this God doesn't exist.
If what you said were true, what is to stop me from being one of these type of Christians?

Ken
 
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Golden Yak

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I think God is evident because He created the world and all that is within it. Humans included.

This assertion is not evident.

You see, subjects like sin and righteousness and worship and honor and reverence leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the proud. For the one who worships himself, worshiping God is simply not something he is willing to do.
None of that has anything to do with belief - you could know for a fact that God exists and still not choose to worship him. Isn't that what a bunch of his closest servants decided to do?

So we can get past the silly notion that you do not believe because there is no evidence. You do not believe because you do not like the fact that in believing, you must acknowledge you are not God. You would have to admit the world does not revolve around you but one greater than you.
I don't believe God exists, nor do I believe I am God obviously - I have no supernatural powers. Never understood that accusation, of wanting to be God or thinking of yourself as God - ridiculous, easily disproved accusation.

Neither do I believe, nor have I ever, that the world revolves around me. I do not consider myself to even be the most important thing in my life. So you're flat out wrong there.

Disbelief stems from a refusal to honor God as He deserves. Disbelief is a result of idol worship, a deliberate and intentional violation of the first commandment.
Refusal to honor God doesn't depend on disbelief of Him. One could believe and still refuse to honor. So, again, this notion that disbelief stems from dislike is not valid.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I think God is evident because He created the world and all that is within it. Humans included.

You're assuming your conclusion, that's not evidence at all.

Since God is love, He would create us in such a way that His existence would be undeniable. And it is. Yet people deny He exists. The Bible speaks of such people as fools. Fools because in professing to be wise, they have become fools and worship themselves rather than the One who made them.

God is not love, God is God, and Love is Love. They have distinct definitions, and do not mean the same thing. You can claim your God loves things, but to assert that he is love is nonsensical. If you are arguing for the God of the Bible, it's also clear that god is not all loving in the least.

And for your holy book to proclaim that people don't believe in it are fools isn't at all convincing. For example, if I wrote a book and claimed that whoever doesn't accept it as fact is a fool, that adds to credibility to my book at all. I don't see why Christians think that particular passage is anything special... It may as well be a Fox News anchor calling a non-republican a fool.

Lastly, atheists do not worship themselves.... One would think the practice would be rather redundant and/or pointless....


You see, subjects like sin and righteousness and worship and honor and reverence leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the proud. For the one who worships himself, worshiping God is simply not something he is willing to do.

Again, we don't worship ourselves... the very idea is meaningless. Secondly, we judge what is right and what is wrong based on how harmful or beneficial something is for society, or an individual. Things must be weighed on a case by case basis, this is known as situational ethics. Morality is not following a set of rules imposed upon you, morality is knowing and being able to judge that which is right.

Jesus said it so well when He said: "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?"

Actually, that's what the writer of that Gospel said. And I have no reason to take him seriously either.

So we can get past the silly notion that you do not believe because there is no evidence. You do not believe because you do not like the fact that in believing, you must acknowledge you are not God. You would have to admit the world does not revolve around you but one greater than you. Disbelief stems from a refusal to honor God as He deserves. Disbelief is a result of idol worship, a deliberate and intentional violation of the first commandment.

A) I fully acknowledge I am not God.
B) I fully acknowledge the world does not revolve around me
C) Disbelief stems from the fact that you simply have no evidence to back your claims. All you have are empty, incorrect assertions about Atheists. Do you really expect us to take you seriously when you are pushing things on us which we clearly are not true about ourselves? Seriously, what are you hoping to accomplish?

Here's a hint, if you want to know what Atheists think, try asking an Atheist rather than taking the word of whatever pastor filled your head full of that nonsense.
 
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Dave Ellis

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While we are able, let us get past the formalities and get to the heart of why you two are atheists shall we?

The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.


And where did you get that idea? I've never heard an Atheist proclaim that, and that's certianly not my viewpoint.

I've heard plenty of Christians lob those unfounded assertions around though in an attempt to smear us. It's a shame you have bought into their bigotry.
 
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Gadarene

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While we are able, let us get past the formalities and get to the heart of why you two are atheists shall we? The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.

Ah this daft old chestnut.

Not worship yourself = you worship yourself.

Except funnily not worshipping Christ =/= worshipping Christ.

Consistency is nice.
 
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super animator

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Ah this daft old chestnut.

Not worship yourself = you worship yourself.

Except funnily not worshipping Christ =/= worshipping Christ.

Consistency is nice.
Yup, it the classical "I know your beliefs better than you do" type of projection. Anyone who studies public speaking and/or some form of rhetoric knows you can't persuade someone if you can't get their stance on the subject matter right. Otherwise your knocking down a straw-man.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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While we are able, let us get past the formalities and get to the heart of why you two are atheists shall we?

The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.

Once again, you attempt to predicate your non-argument on information that you do not, and cannot possibly, possess. This type of asinine naked assertion internally refutes itself, and barely even rises to the level of fallacy.

Any other hilariously inept apologetics in your arsenal, or are you done making an example of yourself?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Yup, it the classical "I know your beliefs better than you do" type of projection. Anyone who studies public speaking and/or some form of rhetoric knows you can't persuade someone if you can't get their stance on the subject matter right. Otherwise your knocking down a straw-man.

Pretending to possess knowledge that is either non-existent or impossible to access is a time-honored tradition of theology.
 
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Eudaimonist

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The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.

Can you seriously not entertain other explanations, such as being rationally unconvinced that a God exists? Is that so difficult to see?

Where are you getting that narrative from? Why is that the only narrative that springs to mind? Don't you find it unlikely?

I don't believe in gods or goddesses, but I am certainly willing to give reverence (dulia, not latria), honor, and glory to human individuals other than myself who deserve those distinctions. Though, I personally find the idea of glory old-fashioned, and rather like the modern concept of a "cult of personality".

I certainly don't see myself as the most amazing individual in existence. There are other individuals far more deserving of praise and honors. I also do not especially live for praise, though I do appreciate a metaphorical pat on the back now and then when I do a good job at something, as I suppose anyone does.

The psychology you mention is not much like my own. Sure, when I had graduated from college and participated in the graduation ceremony, I felt a momentary pride at my accomplishment, and I felt honored to be a part of the ceremony. It was nice, but not really that big a deal. It was not something that I had craved.

I certainly did not feel worshiped, and I simply can't imagine wanting to be worshiped, by others or by myself. That is extremely foreign to my psychology.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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variant

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The two of you are unbelievers because you cannot bear the fact worship honor and glory are due to one other than yourself.

It's offensive to simply assign people motivations when you wish to dismiss them.

Most people are unbelievers because they don't believe the message of religion.
 
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