Why live at all?

[quatona]

Bingo!



Precisely !!!!!!!!!!!!!





you are right again. My goodness I am proud.

Make sure you aren´t hyperventilating.

I do not think anyone throws away their life as being meaningless atheist or not.

You think your life is meaningful, its just that there is a small problem with that...

It is an exercise in self-delusion if God does not exist.

No, it isn´t - unless you use "meaning" in a certain way that I don´t use it in.

If God does not exist, you exist for no reason or purpose that could be said to be rooted or grounded in something outside of yourself.

I know. I didn´t say I did. So where´s the delusion, where´s the problem?

You just exist like a rock or a moth or a piece of metal.

As far as I know there are significant differences between rocks/metal and humans.

You unlike they, can think and reason, but nothing and no one decided that you should think or reason. No one or nothing designed or made you to differ than they.

But, as you conceded above (after having said the very opposite in the previous paragraph) I am different than them (i.e. I do think and reason).

You just are different than they in that respect.

What do you mean - "just"?
You seem to be telling me that in the absence of a God I would be uncreated, just like them. Now, if there´s a God, they would be created, just like me. So what is your point?

While you may think you are somehow better off for your ability to think and reason and this causes you to feel a certain way about yourself,

I don´t think I am better off than them.

these thoughts are just thoughts.

Again: what is it with the "just"? I don´t expect thoughts to be anything else but thoughts, in the first place.

They are by-products of socio-biological evolution like your hands or feet or teeth. You exist because you are the result of some natural occurrences that began a long time ago. No one decided or determined or planned that you were to be different than the worm.

So what? I am different - as you have already established - in that I think and reason.

The worm is not deluded or deceived by ideas of greatness or significance like you are.

1. You still haven´t substantiated the delusion/deception part.
2. We weren´t talking about greatness or significance.

But he is no better off or worse off than you.

And that is a problem exactly how?

You and the tapeworm are one.

Doesn´t follow.

So when you speak of meaning and purpose you do so as a result of certain socio-biological processes interacting within your brain. These thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. You exist in a closed system.

Yes, so? You don´t tell me anything new here. I am aware of that. So where is the delusion?

This is life if God does not exist. As long as you maintain God does not exist, you are speaking, thinking, living in a closed system. You, like the rock, will be forever bound inside this system as the mosquito was bound inside the fossilized tree sap on Jurassic Park. No scientist "out there" exists to stick his needle down into the amber to pull you out.

You just "are" until you "are no more".

You say that as if it were surprising news to me. It isn´t.
Now please stop beating around the bush and get back to substantiating how I am deluded/deceived.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God is not dependent on anything outside of Himself for His existence. If He were, He would be less than God.

Label it what you will. God is the Greatest Conceivable Being.

Who is greater? One who is dependent upon something external to himself for his existence of One Who is dependent on none?

call Him asfas or lkjlj

label Him as whatever you wish but if in your mind asfas is the Greatest Conceivable Being then asfas exists necessarily not contingently.

God is the commonly used word and that is why i used it

Sounds like ontological argument silliness.

You think your life is meaningful, its just that there is a small problem with that...

It is an exercise in self-delusion if God does not exist. If God does not exist, you exist for no reason or purpose that could be said to be rooted or grounded in something outside of yourself. You just exist like a rock or a moth or a piece of metal. You unlike they, can think and reason, but nothing and no one decided that you should think or reason. No one or nothing designed or made you to differ than they. You just are different than they in that respect. While you may think you are somehow better off for your ability to think and reason and this causes you to feel a certain way about yourself, these thoughts are just thoughts. They are by-products of socio-biological evolution like your hands or feet or teeth. You exist because you are the result of some natural occurrences that began a long time ago. No one decided or determined or planned that you were to be different than the worm. The worm is not deluded or deceived by ideas of greatness or significance like you are. But he is no better off or worse off than you. You and the tapeworm are one.

So when you speak of meaning and purpose you do so as a result of certain socio-biological processes interacting within your brain. These thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. You exist in a closed system.

This is life if God does not exist. As long as you maintain God does not exist, you are speaking, thinking, living in a closed system. You, like the rock, will be forever bound inside this system as the mosquito was bound inside the fossilized tree sap on Jurassic Park. No scientist "out there" exists to stick his needle down into the amber to pull you out.

You just "are" until you "are no more".

I don't see it that way. You seem to think that the only way for life to have meaning is for you to have been designed by someone for their own purposes. This makes you little more than a tool, designed to achieve a particular end, beyond which you are of little or no further use. That to me sounds like a "closed system" of meaning; a system in which one is assigned one's purpose from the beginning. A purpose that one merely watches unfold with tedious inevitability.

Am I equivalent to a tapeworm? In some respects, yes. We are both living organisms. We are both made of the same stuff. But the stuff is arranged differently, and it's this arrangement that makes all the difference in the world. We can contemplate the vastness of the cosmos. We can contemplate even the mystery of our ability to contemplate. That we have such an ability, which seems so exceedingly rare among organised systems, is something precious, something that ought not to be squandered.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Why should I think gods exist? If there is no evidence for gods that does not have far more parsimonious explanations, it is not self-delusion.

Davian, Davian, Davian......

How long shall I bear with thee...

I said the one who maintains his life is meaningful whilst denying God is engaging in self-delusion....

Not.....

That the one who denies God's existence due to lack of evidence is self-delusional.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

You did pretty good except for the part about existing in a closed system because my thoughts "have no reverent to anything outside of what brought me into existence." My thoughts come from within and they are limitless.
I agree I was not designed for a specific purpose, and my purpose in life is not rooted in something outside of myself; you just got a little off track with that “closed system” stuff.

Ken

I did not say you necessarily existed in a closed system because your thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. I stated what is referred to as a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.

My primary reason for stating you live in a closed system is your denial of God.

 

[quatona]

I did not say you necessarily existed in a closed system because your thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. I stated what is referred to as a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.

My primary reason for stating you live in a closed system is your denial of God.

All this doesn´t make a lot of sense to me. Maybe you could, for starters, give us a short introduction into the concept of "closed vs. open system" you are arguing from. It doesn´t seem to refer to the standard definitions. What is this "system" you are contemplating on - the universe?

Next you may want to tell us how my opinion has an impact on the system that I live in, i.e. changes a closed system into an open one or vice versa.

 

[Ken-1122]

I did not say you necessarily existed in a closed system because your thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. I stated what is referred to as a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.

My primary reason for stating you live in a closed system is your denial of God.

So why does my denial of your God cause me to live in a closed system?

Ken

 

[bhsmte]

So why does my denial of your God cause me to live in a closed system?

Ken

Because you disagree with him.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I did not say you necessarily existed in a closed system because your thoughts have no referent to anything outside of what brought you into existence. I stated what is referred to as a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.

My primary reason for stating you live in a closed system is your denial of God.

We don't deny god, if anything, god denied the human race.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why should you live at all? If you are going to die in the future, why live at all? Is it not better to end any instance of suffering?

Life is the source of all good -- of everything of value. Death is non-existence -- a big zero.

Life gives me a reason to live. Death does not give me a reason to die.

As for ending suffering, suffering is not such a great evil that life is of no value if there is even the tiniest bit of suffering.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

Davian, Davian, Davian......

How long shall I bear with thee...

I said the one who maintains his life is meaningful whilst denying God is engaging in self-delusion....

Deny - refuse to admit the truth or existence of;

No, that is not what I am doing. I am ignostic on the subject of gods. If you think you have the truth, feel free to demonstrate it.

My life has meaning. That meaning may not survive me, or the extinction of the human race, but it has meaning at this time.

What meaning can your god offer?

Not.....

That the one who denies God's existence due to lack of evidence is self-delusional.

And that should read, the one that does not accept the god claims due to lack of evidence is justified in their position.

Why should I think gods exist?

 

[bhsmte]

Why should I think gods exist?[/quote]


Because then, he would feel better about his belief in God. You know, the more the merrier. It is not comfortable when others bring up objective evidence that points the other way, this must be warded off at all costs.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Sounds like ontological argument silliness.

Whether or not you think the ontological argument is silly is irrelevant to whether or not necessary existence is a great making property.

I don't see it that way.

Of course you do not see it that way. *Stepping into the metaphysical naturalism shoes I have sitting here on the carpet, I shall now speak*:

Your physiology is slightly different than mine. The computations and biological processes taking place in your brain cause you to see things slightly different than I do. But your thoughts, like mine, are simply by-products of evolutionary processes. We both think life meaningful, it just so happened that nature's processes have led me to believe meaning is derived from God while nature's processes have led you to believe meaning is derived from whatever you think it is. The truth is that we exist, like a snowflake if you will. While we appear to be designed and marvelously crafted by some great mind, in actuality, we, like the snowflake, just so happened to come to exist as a result of natural processes acting on matter over time, and like the snowflake melts and evaporates into the air, so we too shall die and cease to be very soon.

You seem to think that the only way for life to have meaning is for you to have been designed by someone for their own purposes.

With my "red slippers still on*:

Yes I think that. You do not. However, the same biological processes that have made my thoughts what they are, are the same biological process that make your thoughts what they are. The only difference is in the way these processes interact with one another in your grey matter, thus producing slightly different thoughts.

This makes you little more than a tool, designed to achieve a particular end, beyond which you are of little or no further use. That to me sounds like a "closed system" of meaning; a system in which one is assigned one's purpose from the beginning. A purpose that one merely watches unfold with tedious inevitability.

Indeed. But, "with my naturalism slippers still on":

I am actually not a tool at all. Neither are you. We are like a piece of iron ore, or a grain of sand, or a roach. We exist as a by-product of natural processes. In order for me to actually be a tool, I would have had to be made by a person who had a specific purpose in mind when making me. But since my existence is owed to natural processes acting on matter, there was no person to make me for a specific purpose. So even though the processes and computations taking place in your grey matter cause you to think my views make me a tool, in reality, I am not. I am just like you and both of us are like a tree, or a daffodil.

Am I equivalent to a tapeworm? In some respects, yes. We are both living organisms. We are both made of the same stuff. But the stuff is arranged differently, and it's this arrangement that makes all the difference in the world.

Precisely, now you've got it!!!

*Slippers still on of course*

The arrangement of the matter is what makes you different than say, a slug. But this arrangement is the result of natural processes acting on matter. And this arrangement is of such a nature as to produce in you these things called "thoughts". Taking it one step further, theses thoughts also differ according to their arrangement. Some thoughts are arranged "meaning" wise, and some thoughts are arranged "love" wise, or "happy" wise or any other concept. So when you say something like: "My life is meaningful", your saying this is the result of a thought you have. And this thought you have is the result of a peculiar combination of processes and interactions in your grey matter that are produced purely by natural means. So the thought, "life is meaningful" is not actually based on anything other than said processes. You having the thought in question is akin to me farting, or burping. It is simply a manifestation of natural processes interacting with matter.

The same processes that lead nihilists to hold the views they do are the same processes that lead you to have the views you do. It is the arrangement and synchronization of these processes that differ.

We can contemplate the vastness of the cosmos. We can contemplate even the mystery of our ability to contemplate. That we have such an ability, which seems so exceedingly rare among organised systems, is something precious, something that ought not to be squandered.

I am taking my slippers off now.

What you have just said is in reality, fundamentally no different than you farting or blinking your eye. It is a manifestation or a "reflex" caused by the particular arrangement of molecules and atoms in combination with natural processes acting on said matter. In fact, if all of our thoughts and perceptions are simply the manifestations of certain particular combinations of natural processes acting on matter, how would we ever know if these thoughts and perceptions actually presented us with a true view of reality????

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

So why does my denial of your God cause me to live in a closed system?

Ken

Are you a metaphysical naturalist?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Deny - refuse to admit the truth or existence of;

No, that is not what I am doing. I am ignostic on the subject of gods. If you think you have the truth, feel free to demonstrate it.

My life has meaning. That meaning may not survive me, or the extinction of the human race, but it has meaning at this time.

What meaning can your god offer?

And that should read, the one that does not accept the god claims due to lack of evidence is justified in their position.

Why should I think gods exist?

You seem to be hung up on the gods thing. Follow me closely:

Question 1

Are you a metaphysical naturalist or metaphysical non-naturalist?

 

[quatona]

You seem to be hung up on the gods thing. Follow me closely:

Question 1

Are you a metaphysical naturalist or metaphysical non-naturalist?

The group addressed in this thread, and the group you addressed in your previous posts were atheists.
Did you manage to find out the mistakes in your arguments and are now silently moving the goalposts?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

The group addressed in this thread, and the group you addressed in your previous posts were atheists.
Did you manage to find out the mistakes in your arguments and are now silently moving the goalposts?

You are either a metaphysical naturalist or you are a metaphysical supernaturalist.

I assumed the atheists here would fall into the former rather than the latter. If you are a supernaturalist then that is fine. If you are, I would love to hear your take on your understanding of our origin, meaning, morality and destiny as human beings.

 

[Davian]

You seem to be hung up on the gods thing.

So I set the bar lower, for your benefit. We can move on to specific gods later.

Follow me closely:

Question 1

Are you a metaphysical naturalist or metaphysical non-naturalist?

I asked first:

Why should I think gods exist?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

So I set the bar lower, for your benefit. We can move on to specific gods later.


I asked first:

Why should I think gods exist?

You should'nt think gods exist.

Moving on once again:

Are you a metaphysical naturalist?

 

[Davian]

You should'nt think gods exist.

So no gods then. That must be awkward for you. Are you not a theist?

Moving on once again:

Are you a metaphysical naturalist?

I do not self-identify as such.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

So no gods then. That must be awkward for you. Are you not a theist?


I do not self-identify as such.

Then you are a supernaturalist?