How is the law and sabbath different?

[from scratch]

Not according to is qualified by 'how' it was given. Not what was given, or who it was given to. Just how it is applied.

Oh hogwash too!!!!

Not according to has nothing to do with administration.

 

[annier]

Sure. The COI agreed to the covenant issued verbally prior to Moses coming back with the stone tablets. The COI broke the covenant while Moses was getting the stone tablets.

The COI broke a conditional covenant. "IF" you keep my covenant I will make you a kingdom of priest.
Aaron and his sons were already priests, and the Levites were the only ones which did not sin, with the Golden calf and were joined to the priesthood. The law was added through the Levitical priesthood.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

 

[Raeneske]

Are you SDA? You're certainly pushing their teaching.

It isn't perverse to not keep a covenant that has no jurisdiction.

OK you've already made that statement of unfounded personal opinion about obeying God's law. The problem as I see it is there is a New Covenant. That by itself means there used to be another covenant.

The Ten Commandments have nothing to do with God's character.

Have you read John 15:10? If so please identify the 2 sets of commandments Jesus talked about.

Who is God speaking to in Ex 20:6?

You know I'm with you on the not sinning part. Paul lists a group of sins in Gal 5 without once referring to them as violations of the law. Instead he calls them lusts of the flesh. In Romans 5 Paul says sin was before the law. In Gal 3Paul says the law came after Abraham which agrees with Moses' statement of Deut 5:3.

Please explain what you mean by quoting Phil 2:5.

No, I am not a SDA. I am SDR, though not an official member of the church yet.

All Ten Commandments remain in the New Covenant, and have remained, for it is the Law of God.

What is personal opinion? That the Law of God is a transcript of God's Holy Character?

And yes, the 10 Commandments have to do with God's character. The ten commandments, properly understood, are a transcript of God's character.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

God is speaking to all that will obey His commandments in Exodus 20:6. The commandments were not written only for the Jews, but were written for the stranger as well.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

You should look at Galatians 5 again. Those are violations of the law.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As for Philippians 2:5, I was trying to show that we are to have the mind of Christ, keeping the law in the newness of spirit.

Philippians 2:1-5 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

It is all about love. Love for God, and love for our neighbor. If you love God, you will keep His commandments. If we are found hating our brother in our heart, we are breaking commandment number 6. If we are committing any sexual sins, we are breaking commandment number 7. If we are breaking the commandments, then how can we say we love God and our neighbor? And yes, this includes the Sabbath. We worship the God of creation, who rested upon the 7th Day. The Sabbath was made for man, yet still it is a commandment. We are to keep the Seventh Day Holy.

 

[from scratch]

The COI broke a conditional covenant. "IF" you keep my covenant I will make you a kingdom of priest.
Aaron and his sons were already priests, and the Levites were the only ones which did not sin, with the Golden calf and were joined to the priesthood. The law was added through the Levitical priesthood.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Yes that's correct the covenant issued at Sinai is conditional on both parties performance. God kept His part of the covenant. Since the Israelites refused to keep the covenant it is them who rescinded the covenant, thus a replacement was needed. The replacement doesn't depend on our performance. The New covenant is a one way covenant requiring performance on the only One able to keep it. That One is God.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you SDA? You're certainly pushing their teaching.

Just because he admits to the Bible fact that God's TEN Commandments are still valid?? That makes him SDA??

What about these "Sunday Sources"?? Are they all "SDA"???

 

[from scratch]

No, I am not a SDA. I am SDR, though not an official member of the church yet.

Is that Seventh Day Adventist Reformed? That is the closest I could come to SDR.

All Ten Commandments remain in the New Covenant, and have remained, for it is the Law of God.

This simply isn't true according to the prophets.

What is personal opinion? That the Law of God is a transcript of God's Holy Character?

Do you have something from the Bible to back that up? I should love to see it. So far no one has.

And yes, the 10 Commandments have to do with God's character. The ten commandments, properly understood, are a transcript of God's character.

You already said that. I see no need to repeat my answer. The above will suffice.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I see. Now where did you say Jesus says these are His commandments? Don't forget the context of the conversation Jesus was having.

God is speaking to all that will obey His commandments in Exodus 20:6. The commandments were not written only for the Jews, but were written for the stranger as well.

Where on earth do you get this? It isn't from the Bible? God is speaking to the COI only.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Who did it say can't work? Do you do business on the Sabbath? If you use electricity from a provider you do. Thus you don't keep the Sabbath and sin according to what you posted. This is willful sin. No matter how much you confess and repent, continuation proves no repentance and a love for selfish consuming sin that will bring death.

You should look at Galatians 5 again. Those are violations of the law.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Where does Paul even quote the law in Galatians 5? No where! In fact Paul says if your righteousness comes from the law you reject the righteousness of God and salvation. Jesus has become ineffective - v 4.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The list you quote deals only with sin and not the law. The previous verse says -

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

As for Philippians 2:5, I was trying to show that we are to have the mind of Christ, keeping the law in the newness of spirit.

Philippians 2:1-5 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Yes I see. You're trying to say since Jesus kept the law we're also to keep the law. But since Jesus didn't teach the law that can't be His mind.

Jesus said -

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You need to seriously identify those commandments I bolded. Jesus kept the Ten Commandments which are His Father's commandments.

Did John, a disciple of Jesus not know? He wrote this -

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

My friend Dr. Luke wrote this -

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Is he also pulling a fast on us? Do I need to bold the details?

It is all about love. Love for God, and love for our neighbor. If you love God, you will keep His commandments. If we are found hating our brother in our heart, we are breaking commandment number 6. If we are committing any sexual sins, we are breaking commandment number 7. If we are breaking the commandments, then how can we say we love God and our neighbor? And yes, this includes the Sabbath. We worship the God of creation, who rested upon the 7th Day. The Sabbath was made for man, yet still it is a commandment. We are to keep the Seventh Day Holy.

If one isn't subject to the law (covenant issued at Sinai) they can't violate it. We have a new covenant according to Jesus. Unless you can show there is more than one new covenant it isn't like the previous one (meaning contents not movement). Movement changes nothing.

 

[from scratch]

Just because he admits to the Bible fact that God's TEN Commandments are still valid?? That makes him SDA??

What about these "Sunday Sources"?? Are they all "SDA"???

I'd say you're a wee might out of focus. None of your Sunday sources sound like SDA. She does enough for me to ask.

 

[BobRyan]

I'd say you're a wee might out of focus. None of your Sunday sources sound like SDA.

Which is my point. They affirm the TEN Commandments as stilll applicable to all saints - and are not SDA.

Yet you responded to a post by someone simply affirming the SAME points about the TEN Commandments as the Sunday Sources listed below - as if that makes them SDA.

How odd.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

The ten commandts are Mosaic Law, also the law was for the Jews. The law of grace replaced the old one. Also if you want to keep the sabbath why aren't you keeping all the other law. The 10 commandts are not just only law. 618 laws have to be kept. Also using the whole Adam had the Sabbath. God didn't created a contract with Adam.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Gentiles which Christians aren' under the ten commands but Grace. The Mosaic Law was put into to place for saving but the replacement was the law of grace. Believing is Jesus . In fact 9 commands were repeated. Also part of the Mosaic Law was Circumcision.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

AD 90 - The DIDACHE

1. But every Lord's day [Sunday] do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
2. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?
Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?
Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?
Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?
While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?

 

[SayaOtonashi]

If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?
Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?
Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lord's Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20:7?
Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lord's Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?
Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?
If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20:9; 31:17
If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished, then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5
How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?
If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3)
If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?
Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40)
Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?
If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Also hpw many of you SDA actually work, do traveling after church service? However of you do something while on the Sabbath? You have sin and would be put to death. Many of you


Lev. 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings."

Deut. 5:12-14 "Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall not do any work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you." If you have any friends over that are not Christian they must observe the rest day also.

Also Remember there is to be no traveling (Ex. 16:29) No trading no buying (Amos 8:5). Not only does it affect your household but in Exod. 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.'" Since you are not allowed to trade or buy you can't cook either it must be done the day before.

 

[BobRyan]

Also hpw many of you SDA actually work, do traveling after church service? However of you do something while on the Sabbath?

Christ did one or two things on the Sabbath -- before the cross - while it was in full force even by the standards of those who today oppose God's Sabbath.

So it is clear that helping the sick, the poor, preaching etc are valid God-ordained activities for Sabbath keeping.

but as you point out - no shopping, no entertainment TV etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?

In Jer 31:31-33 the NEW covenant includes the promise of writing God's "LAWs on our heart and mind" and is affirmed in Heb 8 as still being of that very same form.

Now the moral law known to Jeremiah - the one that defines what sin is - is the same today as in OT times and has always included the TEN Commandments as even the following list of Sunday Sources will admit.

The spiritual Old Covenant had that SAME law external on tablets of stone but not on the heart - so salvation is only under the NEW Covenant in both OT and NT.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?

There are NO - first century sources showing Christians keeping Sunday holy - or keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath.

There is NO - Bible source claiming that Sunday is the Sabbath.

There is NO - Bible source or first century source showing that the Christians celebrated the Lord's Supper weekly from Sunday to Sunday.

There is NO - Bible source or First century source calling week-day-1 anything other than "week-day-1".

Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?

There are many such documents - check out the book "FROM Sabbath To Sunday".

And of course you will find "Sabbath after Sabbath" worship services with both Jews and Gentiles hearing Christian sermons - in places like Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 -- but not One example of "week-day-1 after week-day-1" instances in all of the NT.

If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20:9; 31:17

It is a day of "solemn assembly" and must also then be a day of "Holy Convocation" -- it would be odd to expect that God's Holy day would NOT be a day for corporate worship. I don't understand why you would expect it to be day where we are NOT supposed to attend church and worship to be valid.

Notice Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished,

Where do you read "book of the law abolished" in the actual Bible?

"Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5

Deut 5 comes 40 years after Ex 20. Ex 20 TEN Commandments are kept INSIDE the ark - but not the book of the law.

Deut 5:12 says to keep the Sabbath just as it was given 40 years before - on tablets of stone.

Why would these make someone think it was to be broken as it is repeated in Deut 5?

Notice that "Honor your Father and Mother" are also listed in Deut 5.

How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

I don't remember ever saying that Moses and not God was the author of scripture.

Even Christ said "It was NOT Moses that gave you manna in the wilderness"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3)

God is the author of all of them - why would He not be given 1 Tim 3:16??

But as for the laws and ceremonies given in animal sacrifices ending - Hebrews 10:4-12 is explicit - they alone end.

If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?

Again - since all scripture is given by God - why would you expect anything different?

Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40)

You are lumping everything in the book of Leviticus as ceremonial. Not only do Sabbatarians not do such a thing -- neither do the Sunday Sources listed at the end of this post.

Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?

Jesus talked about Daniel writing, and Isaiah and Jeremiah and Moses -- why is that surprising when we know that even though we have Bible writers - still God is the Author of all scripture.

If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?

[/quote]

No feast days "Changed" - rather the predictive laws pointing to the sacrifice of Christ end when the event predicted occurs.

But moral law is "prescriptive" not "predictive" - in the same way that a speed limit sign is 'prescriptive" and not "predictive". if one person keeps the speed limit - that does not mean everyone else can go 90. Just because Jesus honored his parents on earth - does not leave us free to dishonor ours.

I think you will agree with that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?

There are a number of the TEN Commandments that are only quoted in part in the NT - the Sabbath is one of them. It is quoted in part in Heb 4, in Rev 14 and in Acts. But there is ONE of the Ten Commandments not quoted at all in the NT. The third commandment is not even quoted in part - in the NT.

Fortunately since there is no such Bible command as "whatever is not repeated must be deleted" -- we still must keep the 3rd commandment.

Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations",
the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?

Many moral laws were referred to that way - including the third commandment about not taking God's name in vain.

5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?

There are NO examples of a weekly gathering of "just Christian" on week-day-1 Sunday in all of the NT.

There are a number of examples of Sabbath-after-Sabbath weekly gatherings for Gospel preaching in the NT.

What is really interesting is that when Gentiles begin to respond to the Gospel on Sabbath they are NEVER told to come to a Sunday service of Christians on the next day. But only to "come back next Sabbath".

how instructive.

Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?

In Is 66:23 we are informed that "ALL MANKIND" will keep the Sabbath forever.

In the NT there is no quote of the 3rd commandment.

So we HAVE a rule/command in the case of Is 66:23. But the idea that if there is on command to keep the 3rd commandment or the 4th commandment specifically repeated then we can ignore them - is a "made up rule".

In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus flatly condemns the attempt of church leaders to try and sidestep one of the TEN Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The ten commandts are Mosaic Law

That is like saying "Love your neighbor as yourself" is "Mosaic Law".

or saying that the fact that God created the world is "Mosaic Law".

Christ said "IF they do not listen to Moses NEITHER will they listen though one rises from the dead". Lk 16.

, also the law was for the Jews. The law of grace replaced the old one.

In the Bible "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19.

Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

Also if you want to keep the sabbath why aren't you keeping all the other law. The 10 commandts are not just only law. 618 laws have to be kept.

There are 1050 commands in the NT.

Hebrews 10 tells us that the ceremonial laws given in animal sacrifices - ended at the cross.

What is the Methodist view of the "Westminster Confession of Faith"?

John Wesley?

All of whom accept that the TEN Commandments are binding on all Christians to this very day.

in Christ,

Bob