A Pondering of the Peculiar

[Sayre]

The only time personal experiences are harmful, is when people use them to cause harm to themselves, to others or to ignore obvious truths in the real world that go against their experiences.

This is why I have always said, if a person believes on faith and it makes them a better person, that they should keep believing on faith.

Thank you.

For what it's worth, I'm willing to grant you the same - that a consistent lack of experience of a God or gods is sufficient for you to be warranted in holding to a lack of belief in a God or gods.

I'm not sure there is anything more I can add to this thread - since all my evidence from here on in is personal and subjective, not objective or empirical.

 

[anyathesword]

Sorry, but if I know how something will turn out ahead of time there is not free will in the process.

An all knowing God eliminates the possibility of free will. Therefore if anyone goes to hell it is God's fault.

That's the point! YOU do not know! Your job is to decide what you want to do according to the faith. You have the ability to choose what you want, right now, tomorrow, in 10 years from now.

Remember this verse at least:

Isaiah 55:8-9 (NIV)
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


No matter how hard we try to define God, to understand how He works, to try to put Him into our définitions of "LOGIC", we will never succeed!!!

God is just to strong, to powerful, to intelligent for us to even begin to comprehend him (is comprehend an English word?)

WE are a created being. God is the Creator. We can begin to get a glimpse of Who He is if we read the Bible competely, not partially. The Bible has the answers, the true and correct descriptions of Him.

Our personal expériences can be misleading in defining God. Our feelings, our thoughts can come from other sources that can define God in the wrong way.

I'll use myself for example because I am not afraid or ashamed to share.

From the beginning to right now of my life, my definition of God is a punk rabbit who doesn't hear me, nor cares about my present circumstances.

But that doesn't sound like a loving God does it? No, so I go to the Bible and I look at some verses.
Like

Jeremiah 29:11 (NIV)
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Isaiah 58:11 ESV
And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

Proverbs 3:5 ESV
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Psalm 27:14 ESV
Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; wait for the Lord!

Psalms 139:13-18 (My favorite psalms)
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

16
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17
How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!

18
Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand—
when I awake, I am still with you.



Then after searching through the Bible, I see that what I think of God is not true. God loves me, He knew before I was born, He wants me to have a future and hope. All I need to do is wait and trust Him and sure it's not easy.

Some of our thoughts and définitions come from the one who is against God.

 

[Seipai]

So then you are saying that God is not all knowing.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

That's the point! YOU do not know! Your job is to decide what you want to do according to the faith. You have the ability to choose what you want, right now, tomorrow, in 10 years from now.

Omniscience is a fun problem. If god is omniscient then he knows beforehand which people in his creation will end up in hell. So whose fault is that then? God's for creating them in the full knowledge of what they will think and do every second of their lives leading them to be condemned to torment in hell for all of eternity (condemned by who is another fun question), or is it the person's own fault because, as is claimed, even though god created them knowing their actions and destiny beforehand, and even though god was the one who decided that they should be created to follow that destiny in hell which he knew about all along, it's somehow their fault because they exercised freewill to do what god knew they would do all along. Hmm, problems, problems.

Then there is a sort of black hole problem for omniscience, in which by definition, god would have to know all of his own actions in advance. He would have to know what he was going to think and do himself beforehand for every second of the rest of his existence. So in this picture, does god have freewill? How can he if he knows beforehand every thought and action? Is he not reduced to being an automaton? How can one actually think if you already know in advance what all your thoughts will be. That's why I call it a black hole problem - it sort of makes the existence of an omiscient god an impossibility.

It's fun though.

 

[driewerf]

Just because some claim to be Christians, does not make it so. Romans says they will be known by their works, so those that do ungodly things are not Christians even if they are the heads of churches. Jesus said I do the work of my father, while others did the work of theirs, the devil.

They may have started wars claiming to be on the side of right and had God's blessing, but by their acts showed who they truly followed. Religious war or normal war, the end result is the same, people die. There is no justification for either.

In your opinion, were they in spite of the Bible, or with respect to the Bible?

Above are two posts, separated by a few pages of discussion. The two posters aren't a reaction to each other, but have the same theme: the christian god doesn't wanted the Crusades, or the Inquisition.

Let' us concede the point. God didn't want
- the Crusades
- the witch hunt
- the massacre of the Cathares
- the massacre at Munster against the Anabaptists
- the Thirty Years War between catholics and protestants
- the killing of doctors who perform abortions

But in all these cases, god remained silent. He let it happen. As if he either doesn't care (speaking of being pro-life!) or he is... absent.
If there is a god, he has to know that killing the infidels would damn them for eternity to hell. Instead of killing them, keep on preaching, talking and, even better -- evangelise by example. But no. God let it happen. Or was absent.

 

[AV1611VET]

But in all these cases, god remained silent. He let it happen. As if he either doesn't care (speaking of being pro-life!) or he is... absent.
If there is a god, he has to know that killing the infidels would damn them for eternity to hell. Instead of killing them, keep on preaching, talking and, even better -- evangelise by example. But no. God let it happen. Or was absent.

Habakkuk had the same dilemma.

Habakkuk 1:1 The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
Habakkuk 1:2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
Habakkuk 1:3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
Habakkuk 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

God's reply follows:

Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

 

[anyathesword]

Omniscience is a fun problem. If god is omniscient then he knows beforehand which people in his creation will end up in hell. So whose fault is that then? God's for creating them in the full knowledge of what they will think and do every second of their lives leading them to be condemned to torment in hell for all of eternity (condemned by who is another fun question), or is it the person's own fault because, as is claimed, even though god created them knowing their actions and destiny beforehand, and even though god was the one who decided that they should be created to follow that destiny in hell which he knew about all along, it's somehow their fault because they exercised freewill to do what god knew they would do all along. Hmm, problems, problems.

Then there is a sort of black hole problem for omniscience, in which by definition, god would have to know all of his own actions in advance. He would have to know what he was going to think and do himself beforehand for every second of the rest of his existence. So in this picture, does god have freewill? How can he if he knows beforehand every thought and action? Is he not reduced to being an automaton? How can one actually think if you already know in advance what all your thoughts will be. That's why I call it a black hole problem - it sort of makes the existence of an omiscient god an impossibility.

It's fun though.

Why do you and others always say that God condemns you to hell because He knows what your choice will be?

Who has the decision and who can think for himself/herself??? YOU and ME and all the other people!! YOU are deciding what path to go! YOU are free to make any decision you want!

God created us to be with HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Genesis 1:27 ESV
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Why would God create you in His image if He wanted you to go to hell??

John 3:16-17 ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Why would God send His Son, Jesus to die for us, if He wanted us to go to hell?

Ephesians 2:10 ESV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Before we were born God created us to do good things and walk with Him.

It is OUR choice and always will be our choice to decide who we want to serve.

God knowing the outcome of every decision will not change the fact that you are able to choose and to live your life how you want.

 

[FredHoyle]

God's reply follows:

Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

Did he work a work?

 

[anyathesword]

Above are two posts, separated by a few pages of discussion. The two posters aren't a reaction to each other, but have the same theme: the christian god doesn't wanted the Crusades, or the Inquisition.

Let' us concede the point. God didn't want
- the Crusades
- the witch hunt
- the massacre of the Cathares
- the massacre at Munster against the Anabaptists
- the Thirty Years War between catholics and protestants
- the killing of doctors who perform abortions

But in all these cases, god remained silent. He let it happen. As if he either doesn't care (speaking of being pro-life!) or he is... absent.
If there is a god, he has to know that killing the infidels would damn them for eternity to hell. Instead of killing them, keep on preaching, talking and, even better -- evangelise by example. But no. God let it happen. Or was absent.

God works in ways that we will never understand.And children will all go to Heaven!

 

[anyathesword]

Did he work a work?

Yes

 

[Delphiki]

The mere fact that God felt it necessary to create a hell in the first place makes him the root cause for our damnation. If he really loves you, there are an infinite number of better ways to allow for your salvation. The biblical God is uncreative, temperamental, immoral, and an idiot.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Why do you and others always say that God condemns you to hell because He knows what your choice will be?

Because he had a choice, supposedly, of whether to create you in the first place, knowing that you would spend eternity in hell. Sort of makes your own choice in the matter rather irrelevant wouldn't you say?

Who has the decision and who can think for himself/herself??? YOU and ME and all the other people!! YOU are deciding what path to go! YOU are free to make any decision you want!

Even though god knew before he created you what you would choose to do and where you would spend eternity. Oh yes, it's all your fault that you were created by someone who knew what you would do and that you would suffer forever as a result. No blame attached to your omniscient god there at all!

God created us to be with HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Except for those he created knowing beforehand knowing that they wouldn't be with him but somewhere rather nastier.

Genesis 1:27 ESV
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Why would God create you in His image if He wanted you to go to hell??

I don't know. Tricky problem isn't it?

John 3:16-17 ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Why would God send His Son, Jesus to die for us, if He wanted us to go to hell?

Well, jesus is supposed to be god in human form, so arranging to have himself murdered in human form (or pretend to be murdered as god can't die) by humans for the benefit of humans is rather an odd idea. And that's without even mentioning that this sacrifice (interesting word for it) was supposed to pay the price for humanity's sins...to whom exactly? To whom was this price being paid? Who is making the decisions here about going to hell and heaven? Would that be god again? If it is, he's doing all this to impress himself enough to do a bit of forgiving which somehow he couldn't have done otherwise. So, yes, why would he do all that when he could just forgive in the first place? Your guess is as good as mine, but just having the story end with "and then god decided to forgive everyone without pretending to have himself murdered" wouldn't have been as good a story, would it?

Ephesians 2:10 ESV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Before we were born God created us to do good things and walk with Him.

Except, being omniscient, he already knew beforehand what each of us would do every second of our lives.

It is OUR choice and always will be our choice to decide who we want to serve.

That's nice. Doesn't really help absolve god of the responsibility of creating all those souls he knew beforehand would end up in hell for all eternity though, does it? What was that all about? Collateral damage just so he could have some company with those nice people who happened to be born in a part of the world that believed in the story of jesus? That's a hell of a lot of collateral damage so he could solve his loneliness problem. Still, never mind, he's definitely a loving god. Oh yes.

God knowing the outcome of every decision will not change the fact that you are able to choose and to live your life how you want

Apart from the problem of god's responsibility in the matter of creating those people who will end up in hell for all eternity. Did I mention that before?

 

[anyathesword]

Because he had a choice, supposedly, of whether to create you in the first place, knowing that you would spend eternity in hell. Sort of makes your own choice in the matter rather irrelevant wouldn't you say?
Even though god knew before he created you what you would choose to do and where you would spend eternity. Oh yes, it's all your fault that you were created by someone who knew what you would do and that you would suffer forever as a result. No blame attached to your omniscient god there at all!

Except for those he created knowing beforehand knowing that they wouldn't be with him but somewhere rather nastier.
I don't know. Tricky problem isn't it?

Well, jesus is supposed to be god in human form, so arranging to have himself murdered in human form (or pretend to be murdered as god can't die) by humans for the benefit of humans is rather an odd idea. And that's without even mentioning that this sacrifice (interesting word for it) was supposed to pay the price for humanity's sins...to whom exactly? To whom was this price being paid? Who is making the decisions here about going to hell and heaven? Would that be god again? If it is, he's doing all this to impress himself enough to do a bit of forgiving which somehow he couldn't have done otherwise. So, yes, why would he do all that when he could just forgive in the first place? Your guess is as good as mine, but just having the story end with "and then god decided to forgive everyone without pretending to have himself murdered" wouldn't have been as good a story, would it?

Except, being omniscient, he already knew beforehand what each of us would do every second of our lives.

That's nice. Doesn't really help absolve god of the responsibility of creating all those souls he knew beforehand would end up in hell for all eternity though, does it? What was that all about? Collateral damage just so he could have some company with those nice people who happened to be born in a part of the world that believed in the story of jesus? That's a hell of a lot of collateral damage so he could solve his loneliness problem. Still, never mind, he's definitely a loving god. Oh yes.

Apart from the problem of god's responsibility in the matter of creating those people who will end up in hell for all eternity. Did I mention that before?

Mr. Strawberry, you have not mentioned anything about the ability for an individual person to CHOOSE what they believe.

Why don't you look through your eyes for the moment. Do you have a decision you can make right now? Not even now lets say, but a year from now? Are you able to choose or not? Can you choose what you will eat? Can you choose where you want to live? Can you choose who you want to love? Can you choose if you want to drink or not? And can you choose if you believe in God or not?

Like I said, whatever decision YOU choose, God knows what the outcome will be! He knows it all, and it makes no difference to your ability to choose.

PEOPLE put themselves in hell by their décisions.

Why didn't God just forgive people like you said? HE DID!!

But guess what? THEY DELIBERATLY REFUSED AND SPAT IN GOD'S FACE!!!
Does anyone bother to read the Old Testament or you guys just pick and choose some verses that show that God is a mean and nasty fellow and not read what came before it to get the whole picture???

You can't get the whole pie if you only eat a slice!!

God repeatadly saved Isreal from it's enemies, blessing them and prospering them. But time after time they rebelled and decided to worship other gods, sacrifice their children, participated in all kinds of sexual immorality, and mocked God after delivering them.

Those people He created chose willingly to rebell against God. Their choice, not God's.

You have the choice Mr. Strawberry.

 

[anyathesword]

The mere fact that God felt it necessary to create a hell in the first place makes him the root cause for our damnation. If he really loves you, there are an infinite number of better ways to allow for your salvation. The biblical God is uncreative, temperamental, immoral, and an idiot.

God prepared hell for Satan and his Fallen Angels (demons), not for us.

Give me the infinite number of better ways that He can allow for your salvation.

And please don't mock God, it makes me angry.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Mr. Strawberry, you have not mentioned anything about the ability for an individual person to CHOOSE what they believe.

That is because it becomes irrelevant the minute you say that god knew beforehand what each person he created would do and what their fate would be. He either knew or he didn't.

Why don't you look through your eyes for the moment. Do you have a decision you can make right now? Not even now lets say, but a year from now? Are you able to choose or not? Can you choose what you will eat? Can you choose where you want to live? Can you choose who you want to love? Can you choose if you want to drink or not? And can you choose if you believe in God or not?

Did god know all of my actions and thoughts for every second of my life before he even created the universe. Yes or no? But he went ahead anyway. How is that not his responsibility?

Like I said, whatever decision YOU choose, God knows what the outcome will be! He knows it all, and it makes no difference to your ability to choose.

It makes a huge difference in ultimate responsibility. If he knew before he chose to make each person exist exactly what they would do every second of every day then the responsibility becomes his because he and he alone made the decision that every person should exist who will spend eternity in hell. It's fairly straightforward.

PEOPLE put themselves in hell by their décisions.

Which god knew they would make before he created those people. "Hmm, shall I create another person who will spend eternity in hell? Decisions, decisions." But strangely you think he isn't responsible for creating people who he knows will spend eternity in hell? Not his fault at all apparently!

Why didn't God just forgive people like you said? HE DID!!

Really? So no one goes to hell at all? That's good news isn't it!

But guess what? THEY DELIBERATLY REFUSED AND SPAT IN GOD'S FACE!!!
Does anyone bother to read the Old Testament or you guys just pick and choose some verses that show that God is a mean and nasty fellow and not read what came before it to get the whole picture???

Pick and choose verses that show your god is mean and nasty? Have you ever tried to count how many people your god kills in the old testament?

You can't get the whole pie if you only eat a slice!!

Well, to run with the metaphor, if the pie gives you indigestion it doesn't matter which slice you have.

God repeatadly saved Isreal from it's enemies, blessing them and prospering them. But time after time they rebelled and decided to worship other gods, sacrifice their children, participated in all kinds of sexual immorality, and mocked God after delivering them.

You're getting somewhat away from the point I was making, but the above can't exactly have come as a surprise to an omniscient god.

Those people He created chose willingly to rebell against God. Their choice, not God's.

Oh? So god didn't know before he created the universe exactly what each of those people would do. He didn't sit and and decide "you know what, I'll make them anyway"? Because being omniscient, he wasn't likely to be surprised at all was he? In fact, wouldn't it be fair to say in creating them and knowing what they would do, he chose to create that situation? I mean, he didn't have to create anyone. But as he is burdened with omniscience he has the problem of knowing the fate of everyone he creates before he creates them. Wouldn't you say that gives him just a teensy bit of responsibility?

You have the choice Mr. Strawberry.

But nowhere near as big a choice as your omniscient god when he decided whether or not to make people he knew would end up in hell. He chose to make them, billions and billions of them, knowing full well that their fate was eternity in hell. Still, not to worry, eh?. You've been saved and are going to heaven as your god always knew you would, so everything is nice and rosy in your picture, and your god is a lovely fellow.

Of course, none of this would be a problem for you if you didn't have t burden your god with omniscience. It is giving him this quality that makes him culpable. Foreknowledge gives him responsibility and no amount of thrashing about trying to pretend otherwise will make it go away.

 

[Delphiki]

God prepared hell for Satan and his Fallen Angels (demons), not for us.

And with all his omniscience, didn't have the foresight that human souls would be sent there as well.

Give me the infinite number of better ways that He can allow for your salvation.

How about just by being a great person to each other instead of requiring faith in his existence, for starters?

How about not having an afterlife, so that life is all you have, thus nobody gets an eternity of punishment or reward for a comparatively infinitesimal moment in time on earth?

How about participation in enlightenment through contributing to human knowledge?

Any of these would be better.

Frankly, it's far better that he doesn't actually exist, and that there is no heaven and hell. Considering how both heaven and hell are both described, I'd rather just not exist after I die.

And please don't mock God, it makes me angry.

It's not mockery. It's my analysis based on the very bible your'e reading. The bible paints God as a powerful, magical, super villain. It's just that as a Christian, you are trained to see all his killing, torturing, and destruction as justice and miracles.

Try reading the flood myth objectively. Or the story of Job. He's a tremendous, sadistic tyrant. I'm thankful that I've come to learn none of it is real.

 

[46AND2]

Of course! Just like if you decided to choose the orange now, God already knew you'd choose that.

Just like your decision now is to not follow God. He knows that.

But you have the free will to choose Him now!!! And He will already know.

You are really not following this conversation very well.

 

[46AND2]

Omniscience is a fun problem. If god is omniscient then he knows beforehand which people in his creation will end up in hell. So whose fault is that then? God's for creating them in the full knowledge of what they will think and do every second of their lives leading them to be condemned to torment in hell for all of eternity (condemned by who is another fun question), or is it the person's own fault because, as is claimed, even though god created them knowing their actions and destiny beforehand, and even though god was the one who decided that they should be created to follow that destiny in hell which he knew about all along, it's somehow their fault because they exercised freewill to do what god knew they would do all along. Hmm, problems, problems.

Then there is a sort of black hole problem for omniscience, in which by definition, god would have to know all of his own actions in advance. He would have to know what he was going to think and do himself beforehand for every second of the rest of his existence. So in this picture, does god have freewill? How can he if he knows beforehand every thought and action? Is he not reduced to being an automaton? How can one actually think if you already know in advance what all your thoughts will be. That's why I call it a black hole problem - it sort of makes the existence of an omiscient god an impossibility.

It's fun though.

Yes, and this is essentially the kind of thing I've been trying to explain to sayre.

 

[Black Akuma]

Try reading the flood myth objectively.

She can't.

 

[anyathesword]

And with all his omniscience, didn't have the foresight that human souls would be sent there as well.



How about just by being a great person to each other instead of requiring faith in his existence, for starters?

How about not having an afterlife, so that life is all you have, thus nobody gets an eternity of punishment or reward for a comparatively infinitesimal moment in time on earth?

How about participation in enlightenment through contributing to human knowledge?

Any of these would be better.

Frankly, it's far better that he doesn't actually exist, and that there is no heaven and hell. Considering how both heaven and hell are both described, I'd rather just not exist after I die.



It's not mockery. It's my analysis based on the very bible your'e reading. The bible paints God as a powerful, magical, super villain. It's just that as a Christian, you are trained to see all his killing, torturing, and destruction as justice and miracles.

Try reading the flood myth objectively. Or the story of Job. He's a tremendous, sadistic tyrant. I'm thankful that I've come to learn none of it is real.

Well, there is no other way to explain to you, you are trying to look through God's eyes, and frankly that's a bit complicated for a simple mind like yours or mine.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

Fortunatly for God His understanding and knowledge have NO LIMIT!!!



Why is it really important to think, oh God already knows if I'm going to hell or not. Well, sure, but do YOU know if you are going to hell or not when you die?

No you don't. Well, yes, if you decide to continiously deny God, than yes. The point is YOU do not know the future, you are in the present and that's all you know. You have the free will to decide what you want.

People are never born to go to hell.

Omniscience MEANS all knowing, His knowledge is vast, He knows everything.


Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Job 38:1-4 (NIV)


Our knowledge of God or of science or whatever is microscopic to God's knowledge. Good luck to try and question God, your mind just will not understand!!!!!!!!!!!!

So where were you when God laid the earth's foundation?