"No pornography!" say liberal atheists.

[Hetta]

So these are fake arguments

Who can the personal experience of women who were in pornography be "fake"? That was their real life experience.

it worries me that young persons might go into their lives expecting life to be anywhere similar to what the media suggest as being "normal", anyway

Are you a female?

Also agreed. However, the more general question is (and I feel unable to answer it): To which extent are (young) persons able to tell fiction from reality?

I assume that by the time they are old enough to operate a computer, they are probably old enough to differentiate between fiction and reality. However, a teen who hasn't had a RL sexual experience has nothing to which they can compare porn.

Personally, I wouldn´t dare to judge the aesthetic pleasure of an entire genre categorically

If it's not aesthetically pleasing to me to watch bodies engaging in scripted sex, then it's not. It doesn't matter what else the genre consists of, that's the main part of it - by definition. So, yeah, it doesn't please me aesthetically, period and I'm not going to sit and watch movie after movie to see if I change my mind.

 

[Hetta]

And btw I wouldn't say "no pornography". Just "no pornography for me."

 

[andy b]

How is porn exploitation if the people are willingly involved?

If I post a naughty picture of myself online, am I exploiting myself? Can I sue myself for exploitation?

if that was 100% true non ..but thats seldom the case ...google deaths of porn stars its a tale of tears..and its one ive contributed to by watching.

 

[andy b]

Well, you are entitled to your simplicity. It´s not a problem per se. It just becomes a problem when you make attempts at rational arguments (when I am presented an argument I tend to be under the impression that I am meant to take it seriously and that it´s meant to make me think about it).

im as thick as pig muck but there is no rational argument for porn that im sure of as a follower of Jesus

 

[quatona]

I think its worse as far as exploitation because our sexuality ties deeper into our psyche.

Since when does the industry care about the psyche of their employees?
Since when is that considered a problem for the consumers of their products?
And since when has that become a major concern of conservatives and the religious right - except when it comes to porn?

Of course but would you rather your mother be exploited as a b-movies actress with her clothes on because she needs the money or being filmed actually having sex with people for men to touch to ?

Sons typically have problems imagining their mothers (or parents) to have sex with anyone at all. So I am not sure where this appeal to son-mother-relationships is supposed to lead...
Whereas, if we leave the personal emotional stuff aside I must say I never felt there was a need for me to tell my mother what of the available options was less painful for her. I felt quite comfortable leaving that to her judgement.

If they are equal you should feel exactly the same way about both .

Exactly my point.
(While I must admit that the question "Would I like my mother to be a worker in the industry that produces this very product I am consuming?" is an entirely new approach for me. I´m not sure there are many products that would be left for me to consume if following this approach consistently. Besides, I am not sure that my personal preferences and feelings for my mother are an apt criterium for putting up general moral statements.)

 

[KitKatMatt]

if that was 100% true non ..but thats seldom the case ...google deaths of porn stars its a tale of tears..and its one ive contributed to by watching.

I really don't believe that it's "seldom the case".

I know that it does happen, but I seriously doubt that the majority of pornography involves non-consenting individuals and exploitation.

 

[Reeniee]

...being filmed actually having sex with people for men to touch to?

Not my area of expertise, but I suspect that men are not the entire audience, or the only people that touch to it. Given you are implying that it's bad in your post, you're kind of implying that men in general are bad, which I'd say is misleading at best.

 

[andy b]

even if its one per cent that wrong

 

[KitKatMatt]

It is wrong, no matter the amount. I definitely agree. However, you said that consenting in porn was "seldom", which implies that non-consent and exploitation is MUCH more than 1%.

Also, there is plenty of exploitation and downright slavery in many other industries. It's wrong there as well, why the focus on just porn?

 

[quatona]

Who can the personal experience of women who were in pornography be "fake"? That was their real life experience.

I didn´t say their personal experience was fake. I said something completely different.

Are you a female?

No. I am not sure, though, how this question addresses (or replaces addressing) the statement you asked it in response to:
It worries me that young persons might go into their lives expecting life to be anywhere similar to what the media suggest as being "normal", anyway
If, however, you are referring to the concern you initially expressed ["and it worries me that young boys..." (emphasis added)] I am not quite seeing how being male excludes me from having a valid opinion. Quite the opposite. Young boys are the primary target group of ego shooters and a lot of other stuff that 1. is - imo - not a good introduction into reality, and 2. deals with stuff they haven´t had RL experience with.

I assume that by the time they are old enough to operate a computer, they are probably old enough to differentiate between fiction and reality.

Personally, I am not sure about that.

However, a teen who hasn't had a RL sexual experience has nothing to which they can compare porn.

Agreed. However, this is true for a lot of other plots and actions displayed in movies, as well.

If it's not aesthetically pleasing to me to watch bodies engaging in scripted sex, then it's not. It doesn't matter what else the genre consists of, that's the main part of it - by definition. So, yeah, it doesn't please me aesthetically, period and I'm not going to sit and watch movie after movie to see if I change my mind.

I am not asking or demanding you to do that, and I have no intention for you to change them, anyway. You gave your personal statement, I gave mine.
I would never discuss anyone´s aesthetic preferences, to begin with.

However, the distinction between "staged" and "not staged" appears to be a cognitive performance (as opposed to an aesthetic preference), and a distinction that - I am assuming - isn´t consistently applied in your consumption of fiction, at that. In most cases, we seem to admire actors for succeeding in pretending. (Granted, though: it´s safe to say that the majority of porn actors are just poor at that, and maybe that´s what you actually feel: It´s too obviously staged.)

 

[quatona]

im as thick as pig muck but there is no rational argument for porn that im sure of as a follower of Jesus

Well, again: I was just addressing your particular argument against the consumption of porn - as you presented it.

 

[andy b]

your right whether its child labour for trainers in the west or what ever its wrong its only when you think deep into these issues you see the exploitation.Your young i assume so more naive im older may god forgive me

 

[quatona]

your right whether its child labour for trainers in the west or what ever its wrong its only when you think deep into these issues you see the exploitation.

Well, that was my very point.

Your young i assume so more naive im older may god forgive me

Well, it´s totally possible that you are even older than me, but me being 56 (as is displayed on top of each of my posts) does not exactly justify your generous and charitable willingness to write down my opinions to juvenile naivity.
Also, I don´t quite understand how finally agreeing with me on exploitation in the bigger picture prompts you to emphasize possible reasons for disagreement.

 

[KitKatMatt]

x

 

[quatona]

Also, there is plenty of exploitation and downright slavery in many other industries. It's wrong there as well, why the focus on just porn?

Well, maybe we should look at it this way:
Once they have begun to discover their empathy for the exploited in the porn industry there´s hope they´ll eventually also speak up against exploitation in other industries.

 

[andy b]

Well, that was my very point.

Well, it´s totally possible that you are even older than me, but me being 56 (as is displayed on top of each of my posts) does not exactly justify your generous and charitable willingness to write down my opinions to juvenile naivity.
Also, I don´t quite understand how finally agreeing with me on exploitation in the bigger picture prompts you to emphasize possible reasons for disagreement.

if im honest im not sure what your on about im 44 if that helps ...listen bud if ive upset you im sorry i think we have our wires crossed ...im new to debating on forums so i probabaly dont make much sense ..for that i apologises i just kind of churn it out as i think it God bless Quatona

 

[KitKatMatt]

Well, maybe we should look at it this way:
Once they have begun to discover their empathy for the exploited in the porn industry there´s hope they´ll eventually also speak up against exploitation in other industries.

People already speak out against both kinds of exploitation.

You still haven't defended your claim, though, that consent in porn is "seldom".

And since you haven't, I'm outtie.

 

[quatona]

if im honest im not sure what your on about im 44 if that helps ...

Well, you were generously assuming juvenile naivite on my part. The fact that you are 44 and I am 56 doesn´t justify your generosity, obviously. I don´t deserve the excuse you made for me. That what I was "on about".

listen bud if ive upset you im sorry i think we have our wires crossed ...

You haven´t upset me in the slightest. You were offering your argument, and I was offering my thoughts on your argument in return.
And finally we´ve found out that we agree in a substantial question.

im new to debating on forums so i probabaly dont make much sense ..for that i apologises i just kind of churn it out as i think it God bless Quatona

No problem at all - we´re cool.
However, if I may give you poor advice from a guy who has been around discussion forums for many years: Be prepared to have your arguments scrutinized if you post them here. That´s what discussion boards are for.

 

[andy b]

Well, you were generously assuming juvenile naivite on my part. The fact that you are 44 and I am 56 doesn´t justify your generosity, obviously. I don´t deserve the excuse you made for me. That what I was "on about".

You haven´t upset me in the slightest. You were offering your argument, and I was offering my thoughts on your argument in return.
And finally we´ve found out that we agree in a substantial question.


No problem at all - we´re cool.
However, if I may give you poor advice from a guy who has been around discussion forums for many years: Be prepared to have your arguments scrutinized if you post them here. That´s what discussion boards are for.

dont sweat it brother im here to have my faith tested...bring it on lol.....im not gonna be oscar wild over night so it is what it is

 

[quatona]

People already speak out against both kinds of exploitation.

All the better.
I am, however, under the impression that a lot of people speak out against exploitation in porn while appealing to capitalist mantras in all other areas.
I am also under the impression that a lot of people defend "consuming porn isn´t healthy for you" by referencing to the production conditions, while I have rarely heard "consuming bananas isn´t good for you" substantiated with reference to the production conditions. (IOW: the question whether it´s damaging your physical and/or mental health is a completely different question than whether the production conditions are acceptable.)
And on another note: If we all agree that the production conditions are unacceptable the obvious postulation to make would be to improve the production conditions (as opposed to criticizing the product, per se).

You still haven't defended your claim, though, that consent in porn is "seldom".

Sorry, but I don´t recall having made any statement to that effect. You must confuse me with another poster. If not, I´d be thankful if you´d point me to the post where I made this claim. I´ll be glad to stand corrected.