Do you believe we have a sinful nature?

[Aijalon]

Do you believe we have a sinful nature after we're saved?

Um, yeah. Pretty sure we do.

 

[Messy]

I would need to know what your definition of "sinful nature" is before answering. If you are referring to the Christian doctrine of "original sin" then no, I can't get on board that runaway train.

Yes that's what I mean, the old man, the fleshly sinful nature. I've been taught that we get a new spirit which can't sin, but our soul is not born again and everytime you sin it's the old man which you must keep dead or something.
I don't believe it anymore. It's from Romans 7 and 8, but I believe Paul was talking in Romans 7 about before he got saved and God delivered him and he could then walk in the Spirit and just say no to the flesh, which is not 'the old man' I think.
What I notice is some Messianic Jews just believe we don't have that and they just make a choice and do right, while when you Always believe you have this sinful nature, you think you just have to sin and it's impossible to ever not sin. Now when you lived in sin and were a slave, I believe you had a sinful nature which died with Jesus on the cross. Galatians 2:22
That's hope for the real sinners, like I was.
But I don't buy this dual teaching anymore. Jesus didn't have a sinful nature and still He was tempted, just because He had an earthly body.
I think the whole idea came from Calvin, who killed someone, so I can see he had a sinful nature. How can he teach me something about it? He didn't even repent, but thought he was doing God a favour. Saul killed christians and had a sinful nature, but he got saved and then he started to preach about that he died with Christ.

 

[Messy]

I doubt there is hope for me, as you say, '' I choose.''


willfully

Paul said he didn't choose wilfully.
Romans 7
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
And then he shows the way out in Romans 8.
Someone on the charismatic forum taught me this. He was a christian, but a porn addict for 38 years. He fasted and prayed and nothing worked. Then he said: Lord I give up. And the Lord appeared to him and said that with this He was well pleased, that he saw he couldn't do it and then God did it, he showed him his old man was already dead and he was set free immediately. I was a borderliner and did sins for which you will not inhabit the Kingdom and got set free by this teaching and by God showing me He loved me unconditionally. Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.
Yet I thought He doesn't condemn us that we can do nothing else but sin and we're forgiven and there's no way to live holy.

 

[Rubiks]

Yes believers have a sin nature after they're saved. Its a daily struggle we have to wrestle with this sinful nature which paul calls "the flesh"

 

[Near]

Yes that's what I mean, the old man, the fleshly sinful nature. I've been taught that we get a new spirit which can't sin, but our soul is not born again and everytime you sin it's the old man which you must keep dead or something.
I don't believe it anymore. It's from Romans 7 and 8, but I believe Paul was talking in Romans 7 about before he got saved and God delivered him and he could then walk in the Spirit and just say no to the flesh, which is not 'the old man' I think.
What I notice is some Messianic Jews just believe we don't have that and they just make a choice and do right, while when you Always believe you have this sinful nature, you think you just have to sin and it's impossible to ever not sin. Now when you lived in sin and were a slave, I believe you had a sinful nature which died with Jesus on the cross. Galatians 2:22
That's hope for the real sinners, like I was.
But I don't buy this dual teaching anymore. Jesus didn't have a sinful nature and still He was tempted, just because He had an earthly body.
I think the whole idea came from Calvin, who killed someone, so I can see he had a sinful nature. How can he teach me something about it? He didn't even repent, but thought he was doing God a favour. Saul killed christians and had a sinful nature, but he got saved and then he started to preach about that he died with Christ.

The idea didnt really come from Calvin, nor Luther.
It goes back to Augustine, who popularized it. He also taught a few other things.
This stuff was accepted by the "church", well the Catholic one, and protestants rebelled against a few things, but kept bad stuff... Mixed it around, and now we have thousands of denominations of protestantism.

We are tempted the same way Eve was in the Garden, she sinned, but didnt have a sinful nature.

Also, about Romans 7, early church fathers, such as Saint John Chrysostom, believe Paul was simply "painting a picture" so to speak of a "carnal man, sold under sin". That expression alone should be enough to say one is not saved, carnal as opposed to spiritual, sold under sin as opposed to redeemed.

If you look towards the end of Rom 7 there is a type of question Paul poses, the answer of which he know, "who will deliver me?" He isnt literally unaware of Christ, infact he tells us that he thanks God, and he then goes into detail about carnal vs spiritual in Romans 8.

 

[ananda]

Do you believe we have a sinful nature after we're saved?

In context, what is your definition of "nature"?

 

[Messy]

In context, what is your definition of "nature"?

Part of your soul that makes you want to sin.
This man can explain it:
Grace: Do I Have a Sinful Nature? Or, is it the Flesh? | Season of Peace | Freedom from fear, depression, anxiety and panic attacks.
we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin. We don’t learn to sin; rather, it comes natural to us since birth. When we come into this world, our spirits are dead and we must be born again.

 

[ananda]

Part of your soul that makes you want to sin.
This man can explain it:
Grace: Do I Have a Sinful Nature? Or, is it the Flesh? | Season of Peace | Freedom from fear, depression, anxiety and panic attacks.
we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin. We don’t learn to sin; rather, it comes natural to us since birth. When we come into this world, our spirits are dead and we must be born again.

Thanks.

My answer to your OP question then is "yes and no"

It all boils down to choice. The ability to choose is what conditions tendencies to sin - or not.

For example, I believe gluttony is a sin. I am not a glutton. I have made ongoing choices to restrain myself from eating beyond what I need to eat. I therefore do not have an urge that pushes me towards overeating. So, I do not have a part in my soul that makes me want to commit this sin.

However, if I make a choice to start eating more, I will be feeding the sin within me. Over time, if I choose to continue down this road, my urge to overeat will grow and I will become a glutton. So, I would grow this part in my soul that makes me want to commit this sin.

I think the real question is "do we have an inability to choose righteousness after we're saved?" (To that, I say "no")

 

[visionary]

Part of your soul that makes you want to sin.
This man can explain it:
Grace: Do I Have a Sinful Nature? Or, is it the Flesh? | Season of Peace | Freedom from fear, depression, anxiety and panic attacks.
we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin. We don’t learn to sin; rather, it comes natural to us since birth. When we come into this world, our spirits are dead and we must be born again.

I have two children, one I nicknamel sugar, and the other I call my spice. "Sugar" was the most beautiful soul right from the gitgo. "Spice" on the other hand is where I got my grey hair from. So no, I do not buy into the idea we have a dead spirit, nor do I believe we have a sinful nature. A weakness is not the same as a propensity.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Do you even want to please God?

If I speak of sin, it is most likely things that you would not consider sin.


Do you have a thousand dollars in the bank?


To me, this would be a great sin.


I don't make very much money, but I find myself in great sin if I spend what I make on myself.

Most people would not see this as sin, I do.


You say you have a big house, a brand new $15,000 car, to me this would be such great sin, but to you, I doubt it.

You go out to a have a nice meal and spend 50 bucks?

To you, it's just going out to eat, no sin in it, I suppose.

But with me, I feel so sinful when I do it, that I don't do it too often.

I can't sit at a nice Diner treating myself well, while at the same time knowing there is an old crippled man who could have used that 50 bucks for his medicine.

Every time I open my mouth I am in sin.

But most people do not find sin in these things.


Do you ever get mad at a waiter, or anyone where you get angry for some stupid reason?

Or does anyone really treat you bad and then you speak against them?


I get angry, I will speak up for myself when wronged, but an hour later I feel like Satan and I will seek that person out who hates me and begin crying because I am so remorseful.

I look at sin much different then most people.


What I have and what I get, is to be used for charity, but sometimes I get selfish and see to my own needs, and this is a great sin to me.

 

[Near]

If I speak of sin, it is most likely things that you would not consider sin.


Do you have a thousand dollars in the bank?


To me, this would be a great sin.


I don't make very much money, but I find myself in great sin if I spend what I make on myself.

Most people would not see this as sin, I do.


You say you have a big house, a brand new $15,000 car, to me this would be such great sin, but to you, I doubt it.

You go out to a have a nice meal and spend 50 bucks?

To you, it's just going out to eat, no sin in it, I suppose.

But with me, I feel so sinful when I do it, that I don't do it too often.

I can't sit at a nice Diner treating myself well, while at the same time knowing there is an old crippled man who could have used that 50 bucks for his medicine.

Every time I open my mouth I am in sin.

But most people do not find sin in these things.


Do you ever get mad at a waiter, or anyone where you get angry for some stupid reason?

Or does anyone really treat you bad and then you speak against them?


I get angry, I will speak up for myself when wronged, but an hour later I feel like Satan and I will seek that person out who hates me and begin crying because I am so remorseful.

I look at sin much different then most people.


What I have and what I get, is to be used for charity, but sometimes I get selfish and see to my own needs, and this is a great sin to me.

So, would you impose everything you consider sinful on others and call them sinful for things not in scripture?

 

[ContraMundum]

Born dead. Unable to save oneself.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

With a propensity to sin, caused by the sin nature.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

With a deceitful heart that might even make you think you have control over yourself!

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Guys- it's real simple. You sin because you want to. You choose sin because you are a sinner. Whether you call it original sin or not, it's a simple fact that if you were thoroughly holy you would never choose to sin. Was it CS Lewis or GK Chesterton that said that the doctrine of original sin is the easiest to prove and most undeniable doctrine of the church? Makes perfect sense to me.

The thing is, as I look at this thread, I completely shocked to find that no one here actually even understands this doctrine and the various nuances in the way it has been historically understood.

 

[Near]

Born dead. Unable to save oneself.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

With a propensity to sin, caused by the sin nature.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

With a deceitful heart that might even make you think you have control over yourself!

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Guys- it's real simple. You sin because you want to. You choose sin because you are a sinner. Whether you call it original sin or not, it's a simple fact that if you were thoroughly holy you would never choose to sin. Was it CS Lewis or GK Chesterton that said that the doctrine of original sin is the easiest to prove and most undeniable doctrine of the church? Makes perfect sense to me.

The thing is, as I look at this thread, I completely shocked to find that no one here actually even understands this doctrine and the various nuances in the way it has been historically understood.

So, i choose not to sin...

Therefore I have a holy nature according to your logic.

 

[Messy]

What I have and what I get, is to be used for charity, but sometimes I get selfish and see to my own needs, and this is a great sin to me.

If I see my brother having nothing and I have a feast every day like the rich man and give him nothing, I consider it a sin. But you must love your neighbour as yourself. You can go too far, f.i. I didn't eat for months, only bread with cheese as a dinner, so I could help a brother and give him the money I got for holiday and what I got for my birthday from my sister. Then I saw he just ate and I had to feed my kids with 50 euro a month, so yeah it's good, in Acts they had everything in common, but they didn't sell their house to give the money to others and lived on the street themselves, only the ones that had more than one house sold the rest. Prosperity teaching to keep everything for yourself isn't good, but poverty thinking either. I got so sick of it, I prayed: God give me some money. Now I can get 20.000 euro and help him out too. Isaac was rich and got richer. Money isn't the root of all evil, the love of money is.

 

[visionary]

If I see my brother having nothing and I have a feast every day like the rich man and give him nothing, I consider it a sin. But you must love your neighbour as yourself. You can go too far, f.i. I didn't eat for months, only bread with cheese as a dinner, so I could help a brother and give him the money I got for holiday and what I got for my birthday from my sister. Then I saw he just ate and I had to feed my kids with 50 euro a month, so yeah it's good, in Acts they had everything in common, but they didn't sell their house to give the money to others and lived on the street themselves, only the ones that had more than one house sold the rest. Prosperity teaching to keep everything for yourself isn't good, but poverty thinking either. I got so sick of it, I prayed: God give me some money. Now I can get 20.000 euro and help him out too. Isaac was rich and got richer. Money isn't the root of all evil, the love of money is.

It isn't money we are to ask for, it isn't self interest we are to ask for.... but you can ask for the means to help your neighbor, and the Lord will richly bless you to not only help your neighbor but your family too... Just don't try to kid God... it will back fire.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

So, would you impose everything you consider sinful on others and call them sinful for things not in scripture?

I think it is to each his own.

If you consider something sin and you do it, it really doesn't matter what the thing is, does it?

I think a person should live his life in study, 16 hours a day if possible.

I believe there is a goal to reach for, and that goal is to go all the way to death after a person has trained for many years.

I don't think it's a sin for a man to have a wife, but I do see it as a weakness.

I don't see a man having a nice house and family who he supports, but that man will never know what it means to be completely free.

If a man seeks after death, and he wants to go all the way to death, then life must become a trivial thing, a thing that is not even real.

If a man goes into a wilderness where he knows there is no water and nothing to eat, should he complain?

Why does the man go into the wilderness where there is no water and no food?

Why does he go up to a mountain?


Moses went up to the mountain for 40 days, he completed the process, but then something happened.

He said to himself,'' Now look what you have done, now I have to go through the same process again.''

Again he goes forth to die, completes the process, and tries it again.


What is so sinful about a people complaining that they have no water and no food?

Aren't they natural feelings that come over the body?

Why so much sin?

Think of the punishment they endured because of this sin of hunger and thirst, they were not willing to go all the way to death.

If a person seeks to go all the way to death, trivial things become sin to him.

Just to say,'' Dear Lord, I am so hungry and I am going to die of thirst.''

How does one go all the way to death?



Sell everything you own and give to the poor, work every day at whatever your hand finds.

Sell your house or move the needy into your house.


Terrible advise isn't it?


How many people have houses and walk past the homeless all the time?

Is it your fault he is homeless?

No, but what has happened after you have turned a blind eye?

Is it sin to have a nice house all the while personally knowing people in dire straights?


I guess it just matters what the person considers to be sin to himself, and if he goes against what he believes, this is sin.

I find sin in everything I do though.

I will find sin in this post.

 

[visionary]

I think it is to each his own.

If you consider something sin and you do it, it really doesn't matter what the thing is, does it?

I think a person should live his life in study, 16 hours a day if possible.

I believe there is a goal to reach for, and that goal is to go all the way to death after a person has trained for many years.

I don't think it's a sin for a man to have a wife, but I do see it as a weakness.

I don't see a man having a nice house and family who he supports, but that man will never know what it means to be completely free.

If a man seeks after death, and he wants to go all the way to death, then life must become a trivial thing, a thing that is not even real.

If a man goes into a wilderness where he knows there is no water and nothing to eat, should he complain?

Why does the man go into the wilderness where there is no water and no food?

Why does he go up to a mountain?


Moses went up to the mountain for 40 days, he completed the process, but then something happened.

He said to himself,'' Now look what you have done, now I have to go through the same process again.''

Again he goes forth to die, completes the process, and tries it again.


What is so sinful about a people complaining that they have no water and no food?

Aren't they natural feelings that come over the body?

Why so much sin?

Think of the punishment they endured because of this sin of hunger and thirst, they were not willing to go all the way to death.

If a person seeks to go all the way to death, trivial things become sin to him.

Just to say,'' Dear Lord, I am so hungry and I am going to die of thirst.''

How does one go all the way to death?



Sell everything you own and give to the poor, work every day at whatever your hand finds.

Sell your house or move the needy into your house.


Terrible advise isn't it?


How many people have houses and walk past the homeless all the time?

Is it your fault he is homeless?

No, but what has happened after you have turned a blind eye?

Is it sin to have a nice house all the while personally knowing people in dire straights?


I guess it just matters what the person considers to be sin to himself, and if he goes against what he believes, this is sin.

I find sin in everything I do though.

I will find sin in this post.

Transcend the thing beholding to the eye, and in your continuous prayer conversation with God see through His eyes, and know that which to say and do about the things that cross your path. Not every situation are you called to do for those before you, for it could be that they need to do for themselves, and if you pick them up, that lesson is lost on them. Not that you do not do for them, if God moves upon your heart to help them. Being in tune with Him will be the key to understanding what they really need. It may not be obvious to the world, but the right message may be perfect for them, for that moment.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

There was a little girl who at the age of 4 who was terribly abused by her own family. Sexually abused, traumatized over and over all her life.

Given drugs by her own father and uncle to put her in a haze.

Later in life she could not escape what had happened, she becomes an a drunkard and a drug abuser and she can never make the memories stop.

Many people would look at her as some sorry drunkard, sinful nasty woman.

That is the same thing she sees when she looks in the mirror, a nasty, sinful guilty beast.

Those types of people who endure things at an early stage in their life are shaped by these events and they continuously live in shame.

They don't find themselves worthy of God.





Then you take a girl who had the best father and family life, she never had a care in the world.


Both girls sin, but telling both girls not to sin, is not the same thing.


They are two completely different types of people.


It is extremely easy to tell somebody,'' Don't get drunk.''


But it might be that the drunk looks at you and says,'' If you think getting drunk is such a big sin, let me tell you about my real sins.''

Telling the girl who was abused not to get drunk is not the same as telling the girl who had an easy life not to get drunk.


Some people may say,'' She has an excuse to get drunk.''


Excuses, excuses, but until you put yourself in that person's shoes, you just don't know.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Transcend the thing beholding to the eye, and in your continuous prayer conversation with God see through His eyes, and know that which to say and do about the things that cross your path. Not every situation are you called to do for those before you, for it could be that they need to do for themselves, and if you pick them up, that lesson is lost on them. Not that you do not do for them, if God moves upon your heart to help them. Being in tune with Him will be the key to understanding what they really need. It may not be obvious to the world, but the right message may be perfect for them, for that moment.

True, good points.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

The Children of the Devil
…43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…

54When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" 55But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of.



Who warned you of the wrath to come, you brood of vipers?


Why did healing come to those who looked upon the snake on a poll, and why must the son of man be lifted up in the wilderness as the snake upon a tree?


How did the disciples speak from Satan?


We do have a dual nature, our nature is of that serpent the devil, and how do the disciples speak from, and become sons of the devil if their fleshly desires don't represent the serpent?


Why are we supposed to die daily?

What are we doing to?

28In the year that King Ahaz died this oracle came: 29"Do not rejoice, O Philistia, all of you, Because the rod that struck you is broken; For from the serpent's root a viper will come out, And its fruit will be a flying serpent.


These things could not be considered unless you consider that the nature of the serpent is part of what our being is.