Are the Roman Catholic Church Biblical?

[Standing Up]

I am not seeing the relevance. I am detectinga bit of hostility because someone would dare disagree with the eastern church.

hostility boomerangs as someone disagrees with the Roman Church.

 

[Standing Up]

It's all about using the words of invocation

One invokes a dispute by saying the right key-word; in this case the Latin word that translates as "and the Son" in the Nicene creed in the Roman Missal.

I am not sure if there really is a "theological" foundation to the dispute but there seems to be an historical one. In 325 AD the Nicene Creed did not mention the procession of the Holy Spirit. In 381 AD the Nicene Creed was expanded significantly and the clause about the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father was added.-snip-

It's not quite that simple. You need to keep in mind that those bishops in 325 thought they were infallible, following God, had the Spirit, spoke for Christ, etc.

Turns out, not really.

But that's what happens when you accept bishop opinion for apostolic teaching (remember the easter and baptism issues from some 100 years prior).

 

[Standing Up]

The question, which you still haven't answered, was about establishing the reliability of what you were taught in seminary. The fact that no one is willing to answer the question directly tells me more than enough.

Don't tell us there's more in Egypt besides the river; there's sand too?

 

[Rev Randy]

What does it tell you?

It tells me nothing other than someone doesn't care to speak about it. There are times we should leave things be and times they should be addressed. I respect his silence.

 

[Second Phoenix]

Easter, baptism, the lapsed were defining issues.

The date of Easter, which dealt solely with the issue of a lunar/solar calendar.

Polycarp was bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.

I am glad that you know admit Polycarp was the bishop for Catholic in Smyrna.

As to the baptism issue,

[qupte]This Council of Carthage sustains Cyprian also in his judgment concerning the question of baptism, and it is a mistake to say that it was ever overruled. Compare St. Basil, Ad Amphilochium (Epist. Canonica prima, p. 19, vol. iii., ed. Paris, 1638), where he refers to Cyprian and Firmilian (“our Firmilian”) as “ancient men,” and treats the question as still an open one.
ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library[/quote]

Being wrong on a particular issue doesn't mean you are disowned.

like I said, about a decade ago, the Roman Church is finally rejoining the Catholic Church on this issue, as it declared LDS baptism heretical.

The Catholic Church has been consistent on this issue. LDS baptisms are wrong as they are done knowingly against the Trinitiy.

 

[WisdomTree]

It's not quite that simple. You need to keep in mind that those bishops in 325 thought they were infallible, following God, had the Spirit, spoke for Christ, etc.

Turns out, not really.

But that's what happens when you accept bishop opinion for apostolic teaching (remember the easter and baptism issues from some 100 years prior).

The bishops in 325 didn't they were infallible. They argued against what was blatantly wrong, and it turns out those bishops were right when they produced the Nicene Creed.

 

[Rev Randy]

It's not quite that simple. You need to keep in mind that those bishops in 325 thought they were infallible, following God, had the Spirit, spoke for Christ, etc.

Turns out, not really.

But that's what happens when you accept bishop opinion for apostolic teaching (remember the easter and baptism issues from some 100 years prior).

Thought what? if memory serves me right a couple were exiled because they would not repent and agree. So no one there was infallible. Some failed to understand and the rest failed to convince them.

 

[prodromos]

I am not seeing the relevance. I am detectinga bit of hostility because someone would dare disagree with the eastern church.

The hostility exists only in your imagination, I promise. I'm still taking my medication

Why did the western fathers also write about the Father and the Son? About Father through the Son?

Now I'm not seeing the relevance. What does this have to do with what the Catholic Church seminary taught you about the historical use of unleavened bread in the West?

The reason is that there are different ways to translate things. Words are not perfectly equivalent between languages. That is why in a Latin or Greek class, students can translate a passage in different ways and the professor will approve of all the different versions.

I don't disagree. I'm sure you are familiar with the Italian proverb "traduttore è traditore". Whenever we translate something we are invariably expressing in one language our own interpretation of what is expressed in another, which is why it is essential to read what the Fathers of the Council of Constantinople intended when they expanded the Creed to defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit.

I know this is off the topic, but there is another point which I haven't seen raised before regarding the change the West made to the creed.
Each part of the creed was specific to one person of the Holy Trinity.
The first clause is about the Father, one God, maker of all things.
The second clause, the Son, begotten of the Father before all ages, of one essence, light of light, true God of true God, etc.
The third clause, the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, etc.
What the West did in adding the filioque was to make the third clause not just a statement about the Holy Spirit as was originally intended by the Fathers, but to use it as a defence of the divinity of the Son, which was not the purpose of the clause.

Anyway, if you don't wish to answer my ealier question, that is up to you. Your answer would not change what I think of what you have been taught regarding translating the creeds clause about the Holy Spirit from Greek to Latin.

 

[prodromos]

If I had my way (not expecting that to happen), i'd lock five bishops from rome in a room with five from the East. I would send no food but only water and let them out only when they had the matters resolved. I bet it would be resolved rather quickly after I wafted the smell of pizza in a time or two.

You do realise that it would not be fair on the bishops from Rome, not being so experienced in fasting and all

 

[Rev Randy]

You do realise that it would not be fair on the bishops from Rome, not being so experienced in fasting and all

Shhhh. You're exposing my nefarious plot. I'm quite aware we would have that upper hand.

 

[WisdomTree]

You do realise that it would not be fair on the bishops from Rome, not being so experienced in fasting and all

Shhhh. You're exposing my nefarious plot. I'm quite aware we would have that upper hand.

Can't we choose our own participants?

 

[Rev Randy]

Can't we choose our own participants?

Nope. It's my dream and my rules. I'll be choosing yours too. Hungry ones at that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nope. It's my dream and my rules. I'll be choosing yours too. Hungry ones at that.

I am sending armies of Carthusians monks to invade your dream!

 

[Rev Randy]

I am sending armies of Carthusians monks to invade your dream!

Drat! A nefarious Jesuit plot has been employed.

 

[HighwayMan]

The RCC can be debated, its an institution with many different sides to it.

On the other hand, the majority of American and worldwide evangelical churches are total whackjobs that understandably drive anyone with half a brain away from religion.

 

[prodromos]

Drat! A nefarious Jesuit plot has been employed.

It will only be effective if they happen to be bishops too

 

[MoreCoffee]

The RCC can be debated, its an institution with many different sides to it.

On the other hand, the majority of American and worldwide evangelical churches are total whackjobs that understandably drive anyone with half a brain away from religion.

There's more than a grain of truth to what you say.

 

[Rev Randy]

There's more than a grain of truth to what you say.

 

[WisdomTree]

It will only be effective if they happen to be bishops too

It's all good, it only takes three bishops to promote them!

 

[Rev Randy]

It's all good, it only takes three bishops to promote them!

And I was having such a nice dream before you invaded it.

Spill The Wine, adapted with lyrics - YouTube