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Why do YE Creationists insist on a simplistic literal reading of the bible?

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frogman2x

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Frogman, the Lenski experiment is direct evidence of offspring exhibiting a trait that one of the parents (the one parent, actually, since that species of e coli reproduces asexually) did not have. And we don't even need an example that extreme--many point mutations result in birth defects that neither parent had. Stop using that as evidence--even if biologists were willing to work within your definition of kind (which would probably make all animals the same thing, which is actually still more justifiable than saying all microbes are the same), what you said still wouldn't be true.

Mutations DO NOT add traits. They alter the trait that would have occured if the mutation did not happen. Birth defects ae not traits, but th ey dod occur when there is a mutation. But the species DOES NOT CHANGE.

My definiion of kind does not make all animals the same thing. My definition says kinds can mate and produce offspring. A dog cannot mamte with a cat.

What is your definition of kind?

I did not say all microbes are the same. I said all microbes are micorbes. Just like a poodle and a bull dog are different but they are the same species.
 
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OllieFranz

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Mutations DO NOT add traits. They alter the trait that would have occured if the mutation did not happen. Birth defects ae not traits, but th ey dod occur when there is a mutation. But the species DOES NOT CHANGE.

My definiion of kind does not make all animals the same thing. My definition says kinds can mate and produce offspring. A dog cannot mamte with a cat.

What is your definition of kind?

I did not say all microbes are the same. I said all microbes are micorbes. Just like a poodle and a bull dog are different but they are the same species.

Mutations can add traits, the experiment shows that. The e-coli could not do something before the mutation. It could do it after the mutation. E-coli that split off the mother cell before the mutation still can't do it, but every daughter cell after the mutation can. Read the links that were supplied.

As to kinds, you still have not answered my question. Are all panthers one kind, or are the different panthers (lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars) different kinds?

BTW, JW has no definition of kind. It is not a scientific term. I tend to say that kind is approximately the same as a clade, but that's just me. A clade is defined as a root animal or species and every descendent. So dogs are one clade and cats are another. Two different clades cannot mate.
 
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JWGU

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Mutations DO NOT add traits. They alter the trait that would have occured if the mutation did not happen. Birth defects ae not traits, but th ey dod occur when there is a mutation. But the species DOES NOT CHANGE.
First of all, the majority of variance in most animals is not caused by mutations. I don't think this is even a common misconception but it seems to be what you are implying here. The vast majority of the genetic mixing in vertebrate species is the result of sexual reproduction. That does not apply to this species of e coli, which reproduces asexually and does not mate. The analogy is silly on the face of it.

Anyway: the species clearly did change. The trait went from one individual to nearly the entire isolated subpopulation rather quickly. And remember--absent asexual reproduction, this means that the new organism took over not by mating with the other members of the species, but by outcompeting the rest of the species for resources.

It is nonsensical for other reasons to argue that developing the ability to uptake citrate is like a dog being selected for size. With few exceptions, changes in dog traits do not naturally persist in populations and must be maintained by breeders. There is always a wide variety of thickness of fur, size, shape of tail, etc, throughout the population. That is obviously not the case for citrate uptake in this species of e coli. The species did not have it. After many years of being submerged in citrate, plus some fortuitous luck, multiple, linked mutations, no one of which directly brought about the adaptation, occurred in the subpopulations. Because they were situated in a citrus environment, it was a huge evolutionary advantage and soon attained fixation in the population. Roughly speaking: it was made possible by mutations, and natural selection made it stick around.

If you have to stretch the definition of what constitutes a "new trait" to exclude the formation of brand new metabolic pathways, viewing them instead as facets of some internal possibility space, the discussion is moot anyway because at that point you would have to basically view all living beings as being of the same kind. At the very least, in comparison with the development a brand new metabolic pathway in a species that never had it before, I would think you'd have to acknowledge that the differences between humans and chimps are rather trivial. That is: even if for some other reason (of which there isn't one) you doubted their common ancestry, you'd have to admit it was possible. But I have no reason to expect that you will ever acknowledge that because you have demonstrated the ability to totally reject evidence that you don't like, and in fact continue to cite in support of your arguments that what was proven was impossible.

My definiion of kind does not make all animals the same thing. My definition says kinds can mate and produce offspring. A dog cannot mamte with a cat.
As I said, that species of e coli does not reproduce sexually, so your definition is (rather trivially) met. If you were actually curious about the real reason scientists have different definitions of species in different domains, this is why--the common definition of "species" loses its meaning in other domains. That is why I stressed that it doesn't actually matter which of the variants you use to try to say speciation doesn't happen, because it has happened by every scientific conception thereof.

What is your definition of kind?
It's never been a pressing issue for me but I would probably say clades are the closest conceptual match. The e coli strain in this experiment resulted in three clades. If you don't like that definition, that's fine, because whatever definition you choose is not going to get around the fact of common ancestry.

I did not say all microbes are the same. I said all microbes are micorbes. Just like a poodle and a bull dog are different but they are the same species.
There are aerobic microbes, and also microbes for whom oxygen is toxic. There are microbes thousands of times bigger than other microbes. There are microbes that can photosynthesize and microbes that cannot. There are even microbes that use slightly different amino acids than the standard ones in their genetic code (one of the most strongly conserved traits there is). Microbes are found in any environment where we have ever found any life at all. They exhibit incredible diversity in both form and function in comparison to the staid (by comparison) macrobiological world and I didn't even scratch the surface of cataloging that documented fact. Reducing all of this to "like a poodle and a bulldog are different" is the worst kind of anthropomorphizing imaginable and has no basis in any reality-based argument about speciation. So yes, all microbes are microbes, but that says absolutely nothing about common ancestry.
 
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EternalDragon

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frogman2x

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Mutations can add traits, the experiment shows that. The e-coli could not do something before the mutation. It could do it after the mutation. E-coli that split off the mother cell before the mutation still can't do it, but every daughter cell after the mutation can. Read the links that were supplied.

But they remained E-coli. Thatg is not evolution.

>>As to kinds, you still have not answered my question. Are all panthers one kind, or are the different panthers (lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars) different kinds?<<

Use my definition and answser it for yourself: Kinds can mae and reporduce. Now I know man has tweeked some of the species so the produce a half-breed, but th mating must take place naturally.

BTW, JW has no definition of kind. It is not a scientific term. I tend to say that kind is approximately the same as a clade, but that's just me. A clade is defined as a root animal or species and every descendent. So dogs are one clade and cats are another. Two different clades cannot mate.[/quote]

I basically agree with your definition. However I think "kind" is as legiimate as "species in describing groups of animals.
 
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frogman2x

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bhsmte

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So you would say that all the later bible authors that talked about Genesis in the historical true sense (accepted it as true history) and Jesus who did the same were all gullible?

Or how about; the NT authors wrote down what they needed to to make the story work.
 
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Split Rock

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So you would say that all the later bible authors that talked about Genesis in the historical true sense (accepted it as true history) and Jesus who did the same were all gullible?

Reference to Adam and Eve does not constitute accepting the stories as literal history. Jesus spoke in parables and anaologies all the time (according to the gospels).
 
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Split Rock

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What is gullible about Adam and Eve?
1. Man made directly from dirt.
2. Woman made from a man's rib.
3. Talking snake.
4. Tree of the "knowledge of good and evil" that bears magical fruit that gives knowledge when eaten.
5. Tree of Life that bears immortality fruit.
6. Flaming sword.

Shall I go on?

Life had to start sometime and the Bible version is better than matter created itself out of nothing and then life began out of inert matter.

Give me a better explanation as to how matter originated and created life.
So, life coming from dirt is OK?
 
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Loudmouth

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But they remained E-coli. Thatg is not evolution.

The common ancestor of chimps and humans was a primate, and chimps and humans are still primates. Are you saying that this isn't evolution just because I can use the same name to describe the beginning and end products?

Use my definition and answser it for yourself: Kinds can mae and reporduce. Now I know man has tweeked some of the species so the produce a half-breed, but th mating must take place naturally.

So do E. coli mate with each other? Do Australopithecines mate with modern humans?

I basically agree with your definition. However I think "kind" is as legiimate as "species in describing groups of animals.

Are you aware that humans and other apes are in the same clade?

Hominidae
 
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Loudmouth

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What is gullible about Adam and Eve?

The lack of evidence, for one.

Life had to start sometime and the Bible version is better than matter created itself out of nothing and then life began out of inert matter.

That's strange because the Bible has man coming from dirt, and other life from nothing.

Give me a better explanation as to how matter originated and created life.

Give me evidence for what the Bible claims.
 
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AV1611VET

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Reference to Adam and Eve does not constitute accepting the stories as literal history. Jesus spoke in parables and anaologies all the time (according to the gospels).
Are you telling me that Jesus referenced parables in His parables?

One epicycle led to another, and then another, didn't it? until the whole thing came crashing down.
 
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Split Rock

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Are you telling me that Jesus referenced parables in His parables?

One epicycle led to another, and then another, didn't it? until the whole thing came crashing down.

Hey. I'm not the one claiming that Christianity has come "crashing down."
 
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frogman2x

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And it doesn't mean a thing.

It can be proven and that is more than anything the ToE preaches.

Do you still think microbes are a kind?

I have no idea. It is irrelevant. If they only produce other microbes, that is not evidence of evolution.

When you learn to quote correctly, you will discover it is not in the Bible. What do they call people who only quote part of a sentence?
 
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