John 3:14-16 teaches that Christ died for everyone

[FreeGrace2]

The text says that the atonement was for all of Israel. There were no conditions.

Exactly! Believer and non-believer alike. Thanks.

No different for the real one.

But text is also clear that the atonement was limited to Israel. In other words, the atonement is only effectual for God's people.

Again, believer and non-believer alike in Israel. Don't forget that.

Actually, you are wrong. "all the people" referred to everyone living within the nation, and that would include the non-Jews as well.

If I am wrong, prove it. From Scripture. That would mean showing me a verse or two that specifically limited the sacrificial atonement to ONLY Jews.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What does this grace do when it appears?

I'll give you a great big hint, griff. How's that!

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Did you get it? It's right in front of you. If you're not sure what the verse means, I'll explain it to you. But I think you know.

 

[Hammster]

Exactly! Believer and non-believer alike. Thanks.

No different for the real one.


Again, believer and non-believer alike in Israel. Don't forget that.

Actually, you are wrong. "all the people" referred to everyone living within the nation, and that would include the non-Jews as well.

If I am wrong, prove it. From Scripture. That would mean showing me a verse or two that specifically limited the sacrificial atonement to ONLY Jews.

You somehow keep missing the part that it was ONLY for Israel, God's people.

 

[Hammster]

I'll give you a great big hint, griff. How's that!

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Did you get it? It's right in front of you. If you're not sure what the verse means, I'll explain it to you. But I think you know.

And we know that the context of "all men" is the all types that Paul referred to in the first 10 verses.

Oh, and we know exactly what was accomplished be reading the verses following.

 

[guuila]

I'll give you a great big hint, griff. How's that!

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Did you get it? It's right in front of you. If you're not sure what the verse means, I'll explain it to you. But I think you know.

It brings salvation. It's effectual. That's what I thought.

 

[Hammster]

It brings salvation. It's effectual. That's what I thought.

I bet the there will be a response about an offer, or a choice, or something else not in the text.

 

[guuila]

I bet the there will be a response about an offer, or a choice, or something else not in the text.

I'd bet money on it. Something will be done in an attempt to disarm God of his sovereignty. Some folks love coming up with mechanisms to control the grace of God.

 

[guuila]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

 

[Skala]

 

[FreeGrace2]

It brings salvation. It's effectual. That's what I thought.

So you think that bringing a gift translates to accepting a gift. Yeah, sure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'd bet money on it.

And you'd LOSE.

 

[guuila]

So you think that bringing a gift translates to accepting a gift. Yeah, sure.

Right after v11, we are told this grace that brings salvation also trains us to renounce ungodliness, etc. It actually does this according to the text. But you're saying it potentially does. You're the one disagreeing with the verse, chap.

 

[guuila]

And you'd LOSE.

Cool story bro.

 

[hedrick]

I think Hedrick would agree that Gods prevenient grace is more then necessary, it also is sufficient for the salvation of all those to whom that grace is given.

Of course. I thought that was implied.

 

[Hammster]

So you think that bringing a gift translates to accepting a gift. Yeah, sure.

Where does it say that it brings a gift of salvation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right after v11, we are told this grace that brings salvation also trains us to renounce ungodliness, etc. It actually does this according to the text. But you're saying it potentially does. You're the one disagreeing with the verse, chap.

griff, I think you need to read a bit slower. In v.11 we read that God's grace, that brings salvation, has appeared to ALL MEN, not "us", as you'd rather have it.

Then, in v.12 we read that God's grace "trains US", not ALL MEN.

Apparently you see no difference between the meaning of "all men" and "us".

Since that's not clear to you, how do you ever expect to understand anything else in Scripture?

So, I'll help you out. v.11 refers to the human race, and v.12 focuses on those who have believed, hence the "us" word.

But that is a rather inconvenient truth, huh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say that it brings a gift of salvation?

What? You don't think salvation is a gift? Salvation and eternal life are the same thing. So Titus 2:11 does mean that. Unless you can refute that. Well?

 

[Hammster]

What? You don't think salvation is a gift? Salvation and eternal life are the same thing. So Titus 2:11 does mean that. Unless you can refute that. Well?

So it doesn't say it? Thanks.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]