Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[guuila]

Preservation of the saints refers to OSAS.

Perseverance of the saints refers to a true believer never leaving the faith.

So in OSAS, God forces people to be saved who don't want to be anymore?

 

[guuila]

How do you know what I cannot stand? Are you omniscient? Of course you aren't. So quit making silly statements that are obviously in error.

Um, the fact that you kick against sovereign grace every single day of your life maybe?

The Bible SAYS that Jesus tasted death for all (everyone, as most Koine Greek language experts understood Heb 2:9), and I believe it. So yes, God WAS fair to everyone by providing a Savior for everyone (the world-Jn 1:29, 4:42, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Jn 2:2).

What does propitiation mean?

Why do you have a problem with God being fair? Can't sovereign God be fair to His creatures? Is that so hard to believe?

Being fair would be to send you, me, and everyone else to hell. No injustice done. But since you believe Christ atoned for 100% of humanity, it is an injustice to Christ that anyone would go to hell.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's the proof right there. Those are demands. anyone with any comprehension of the English language would call "prove it" a demand.

I'll clue you in. I'm asking for proof. You can call it what you want. I suppose you'll squeal "you're demanding" every time I ask a question, if that's how low you want to set the bar.

Thanks for providing the proof of my claim even as you were trying to say you hadn't done so. One thing I can say about you is that you are consistently inconsistent.

Can you prove that claim with some, oh, you know, evidence?

Oh,. so now believing isn't a choice? It just "happens"??? Talk about moving the goal posts....

Did I say anything about believing "just happens"? No, I didn't. I suggest you go back and review my post. I was clear. You missed it.

I understand it better than you evidently, and no, I don't have to prove anything. What are you going to do, demand that I prove it?

No, and no. You don't have to prove anything. But if you want anyone to believe what you claim, proof is more than helpful. And no, I'm not going to demand anything. I will ask questions, which isn't a demand, but you seem to think so.

There you go again, making demands.

You seem to have a serious problem. You indicated that you don't like the way I understood 1 Cor 1:21, so I asked you to give me your view of it, and you go all off about demands. You have a problem. You really do.

And yet you bristle at that being pointed out and demand proof. Consistently inconsistent.

What post # shows that I have "bristled"? Is there one?

I don't have to prove on demand from you. Pearls, etc....

You don't have to do squat.

But when one actually does have proof about a claim they make, they are happy to share it. What you claim as proof isn't anything but your whining that my questions are "demands", or my resquests are "demands". Yeah, sure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay. So you don't believe that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

I believe that He didn't actively cause Pharaoh to resist Him. He hardened Pharoah by allowing him to live longer, which allowed Pharoah to harden further.

Did you notice that in the first 5 plagues, the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart? That's a clue.

 

[Skala]

Preservation of the saints refers to OSAS.

Perseverance of the saints refers to a true believer never leaving the faith.

But in your view, if someone leaves the faith, he's still going to end up in heaven anyways right?

Why are they saved even if they denounce Christ and no longer have trust in Him alone for salvation? What makes them any different than the person who's been an unbeliever his entire life?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Well, at least one of you admits that man has the ability. Apparently you don't accept the usual definition of total depravity of your fellow campers.

Just so you know, some of us do believe in man's ability to turn to God. However, we also believe that for 100% of the time, man, through the power of his own will, will not.

So man has the ability, but not the will. As I say, this isn't a universally held view within Calvinism or those who call themselves Calvinists. Some believe that this fine distinction isn't worth noting, and for me it's borderline.

It all hinges on one's understanding of free will, whether libertarian or bound; something I remember you know nothing about, and weren't prepared to look up. "Free will is free will" was, I think, the extent of your knowledge.

 

[Hammster]

I believe that He didn't actively cause Pharaoh to resist Him. He hardened Pharoah by allowing him to live longer, which allowed Pharoah to harden further.

Did you notice that in the first 5 plagues, the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart? That's a clue.

Yes, I know. That's not surprising.

But too bad God didn't say that's how He hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pure speculation on your part. For some reason you are trying to make an excuse for God (He didn't actively cause Pharaoh to resist Him.). Why not just believe that God hardened Pharaoh's heart for His glory?

 

[Hammster]

But in your view, if someone leaves the faith, he's still going to end up in heaven anyways right?

Why are they saved even if they denounce Christ and no longer have trust in Him alone for salvation? What makes them any different than the person who's been an unbeliever his entire life?

They had one good day?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's inconsistent to deny the Calvinist's idea of God sovereignly choosing who will be saved and thus on the one hand you affirm some kind of libertarian free will, yet on the other hand deny it when it comes to staying saved.

Thanks for the opportunity to clear this up. God's choice of who to save is found in 1 Cor 1:21. He chooses to save believers. That's what being "well pleased" means. We tend to choose what pleases us.

I have no idea what you mean by "libertarian" free will, so I can't comment on your charge here. For me, free will is nothing more than the free choice between options. When God presents the gift of eternal life, man either accepts or rejects the gift freely.

I know you think that if man can accept the gift, he can "naturally" return the gift, or words to that effect. But the Bible doesn't give man that opportunity.

How so? When God saves a man, He regenerates his dead human spirit, adopts him as a son, gives him ETERNAL life (eternal means just that). And God has promised that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. In that promise, Paul included "things present and things future". That would include things that you may do now or later, including a loss of your faith.

So there's no inconsistency. Just a misunderstanding of words and concepts.

If a person used their free will to believe, they can use their free will to stop believing, and God doesn't save people who hate Jesus.

I agree. But those who stop believing don't lose their salvation. Because I can't find any Scripture that says so.

In Luke 8:12 Jesus made it clear that anyone who believes IS saved. "lest they believe and be saved". Then, in v.13 He noted the second soil, who "believed for a while". OK, there is a Biblical example of one who has believed for a while, but in time of trouble, "fall away". I take that as falling away from the faith. And we see those who, due to very trying circumstances, do lose their faith. But there is nothing in Scripture that tells me that I can lose salvation. My faith, yes, that is possible, but my salvation, no, that is not possible.

Where?

OSAS is taught clearly in John 10:28-29, and Rom 8:35-38.

You and I are on the same side... we both deny Calvanism.

I deny Arminianism, for it's view on conditional security. And maybe your definition of "libertarian" free will.

So you think God is going to save people who hate Jesus?

I KNOW that when God saves anyone, they stay saved, regardless of "things present, or things future". And that no one is bigger than God who can "pluck themselves out of God's hand".

 

[FreeGrace2]

So in OSAS, God forces people to be saved who don't want to be anymore?

Gee, griff, why would that surprise you? In your view, God forces people to be regenerated in order to force them to believe, right?

What a silly question. LOL

 

[guuila]

Gee, griff, why would that surprise you? In your view, God forces people to be regenerated in order to force them to believe, right?

What a silly question. LOL

Yes, God forced regeneration on me, and I have no problem with it. Do you think God did something wrong there? By infallibly and infinitely blessing me despite the heinous crimes I've committed against him? What do you think God should have done instead?

So you believe heaven will be filled with people who hate God. Interesting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Um, the fact that you kick against sovereign grace every single day of your life maybe?

If that charge were true, there would be some evidence. Do you have any that you can share with the thread?

What does propitiation mean?

I thought you would know. To propitiate means to "satisfy". Christ's death satisfied the justice of God for the sins of the whole world.

Being fair would be to send you, me, and everyone else to hell. No injustice done. But since you believe Christ atoned for 100% of humanity, it is an injustice to Christ that anyone would go to hell.

You are confused, but I know why.

God's justice was satisfied by the cross work of Christ for everyone, which purchased eternal life for everyone.

And all who freely receive the gift are saved. No one has any excuse for not receiving the gift.

In your theology, those in hell have an excuse; God didn't purchase any gift for them. If you disagree, refute that please.

 

[guuila]

When God saves a man, He regenerates his dead human spirit,

What does regeneration do?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But in your view, if someone leaves the faith, he's still going to end up in heaven anyways right?

That would be the Bible's view.

Why are they saved even if they denounce Christ and no longer have trust in Him alone for salvation?

Because God saved them, and promised them eternal life. Otherwise, God is a liar if He removes eternal life from those He has promised it to.

What makes them any different than the person who's been an unbeliever his entire life?

They are saved, children of God, though rebellious. Other than that, nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just so you know, some of us do believe in man's ability to turn to God. However, we also believe that for 100% of the time, man, through the power of his own will, will not.

You are misusing the word "power". There is no power in wlll.

So man has the ability, but not the will. As I say, this isn't a universally held view within Calvinism or those who call themselves Calvinists. Some believe that this fine distinction isn't worth noting, and for me it's borderline.

What teaching from Scripture says that no one from the human race has the will to believe?

It all hinges on one's understanding of free will, whether libertarian or bound; something I remember you know nothing about, and weren't prepared to look up. "Free will is free will" was, I think, the extent of your knowledge.

No, I've been explicit about my understanding of free will. And I never said "free will is free will". Go ahead and research if you so desire.

 

[guuila]

If that charge were true, there would be some evidence. Do you have any that you can share with the thread?

The fact that you're arguing with people who promote sovereign grace is proof. Are you medicated?

I thought you would know.

How neat.

To propitiate means to "satisfy". Christ's death satisfied the justice of God for the sins of the whole world.

Great! So everyone is saved! Even unbelievers!

God's justice was satisfied by the cross work of Christ for everyone, which purchased eternal life for everyone.

And all who freely receive the gift are saved. No one has any excuse for not receiving the gift.

And those who reject the gift? Why aren't they saved? Christ already purchased eternal life for them, remember?

In your theology, those in hell have an excuse; God didn't purchase any gift for them. If you disagree, refute that please.

Okay. And God will remind them of the infinite number of sins they've committed. So the excuse is invalid.

 

[Don Maurer]

FG2's arguments seem inconsistent. I don't understand why he borrows from Calvinism on his OSAS thing.

I doubt he is actually borrowing from Calvinism. His traditions are far deeper than his ability to do any exegesis. I do not think the early Arminians were quite so completely against OSAS as you might think. I believe Arminius himself spoke about the issue and expressed that "some texts might seem to favor that interpretation" (quote is from memory and may not be exact). In the end, Arminius favored denying OSAS, but I am not sure the Arminian camp was ever intended to split over OSAS.

One more question I would have for you, is do you understand the great difference between OSAS and perseverance of the saints? If you take a look at the discussions on "Lordship Salvation." That is an issue between those who believe in OSAS and those who would be more Calvinist, or Reformed and believe in perseverance of the saints. They are really two separate and different theological views.

Also, I've had about enough of his childish, condescending attitude. Not a good way to represent our side.

LOL, I have great respect for you saying that. My hat is off to you. That is a good example to even me. I should be speaking out when I see Reformed people behaving poorly on threads. We have our own problems too. I ain't perfect either. I am glad your here. You might make a good mod in an Arminian forum.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe heaven will be filled with people who hate God. Interesting.

What a ridiculous idea. Where did you get that from? I never said it, I never insinuated it. You make "conclusions" that are beyond reason.

 

[JM]

Unless you are an Open Theist...God still created a mass of individuals that He foreknow would only be created and sent to hell for their sins.

No way around it folks. Arminian and Calvinist both agree that God knows all perfectly and He still created mankind knowing only some would be saved and the others sent to hell forever.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[FreeGrace2]

What does regeneration do?

Quickens the human spirit, so that the believer can worship God. Jn 4:24