Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Hammster]

Nope. Here is my theology, based entirely on Scripture.

God created man, Adam, who sinned and corrupted mankind. This means that man is not able to solve the sin problem by himself, nor save himself.

God also created mankind, from Adam, to seek Him. Acts 17:26-27

God also revealed His divine power and attributes to mankind so that no one has any excuse. Rom 1:19-20

God provided in grace the solution to the sin problem by the sacrifice of His Son, to pay the penalty of sin for the sins of the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2

By paying the sin penalty, Christ purchased (agorazo) the gift of eternal life for everyone. Heb 9:12

God's will is to give the free gift of eternal life for all who believe. Jn 6:40

God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

That, in a nutshell, is my theology. It is clear from this that God has always made the first move, NOT that man moves first, and God second, as Calvinism loves to charge non Calvinists.

So, can you refute any of my theology? Please.

Verses in context would have been nice. But the Ransom Note Theology seems to work well for synergists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:15 HCSB)

I don't know why you are avoiding this text.

I haven't. I addressed it, maybe in another thread, which I'm sure you've seen.

Rom 9:15 is understood in light of Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way [means they can]
And the unrighteous man his thoughts; [means they can]
And let him return to the LORD, [means they can]
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon. [means God has compassion and pardons those who repent and return to Him]

How do you reconcile this verse with Calvinism?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem to think that "no apparent reason" means "no reason". How do you reach that conclusion?

OK, if there is an actual reason, can you please provide that reason? I've never seen anyone give a reason, other than the extremely vague "for His own glory", which doesn't answer the question at all. WHY did He pick you over someone else, since there are "no conditions" according to Calvinism.

So, if no condtions, then WHAT?

And please stop intimating that Calvinists think they're regarded as "speshul" over and above other saved souls.

Sure. All you have to do is show me on what basis God chooses the chosen.

You've denied that you do it, yet here it is in black and white: "Maybe y'all are just to "modest" to admit that He chose y'all because y'all are just so speshul."

Did you notice that it is a suggestion? The word "maybe" would indicate that.

I didn't call anyone anything.

Anyway, please show me WHY God chose you over any other sinner. That would suffice.

 

[Hammster]

I haven't. I addressed it, maybe in another thread, which I'm sure you've seen.

Rom 9:15 is understood in light of Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way [means they can]
And the unrighteous man his thoughts; [means they can]
And let him return to the LORD, [means they can]
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon. [means God has compassion and pardons those who repent and return to Him]

How do you reconcile this verse with Calvinism?

How is it that you are linking those verses? Here, let me post the passage so you'll know where Paul is coming from.

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? ” But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ” Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory — on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24 HCSB)

No reference to the Isaiah passage. But he does reference Exodus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verses in context would have been nice. But the Ransom Note Theology seems to work well for synergists.

If you consider this comment a "refutation", I guess that's the best that you could do. But I gave verses for every point except the first one, which is self evident. I could have given Rom 5:12-15.

To charge that my verses weren't "in context" with each point is disingenuous of you.

I have requested a refutation of my points. Disingenuous responses without any refutation isn't acceptable.

I'm still looking for a refutation, if my view is wrong. I've given verses that back up my points.

 

[Hammster]

OK, if there is an actual reason, can you please provide that reason? I've never seen anyone give a reason, other than the extremely vague "for His own glory", which doesn't answer the question at all. WHY did He pick you over someone else, since there are "no conditions" according to Calvinism.

So, if no condtions, then WHAT?


Sure. All you have to do is show me on what basis God chooses the chosen.


Did you notice that it is a suggestion? The word "maybe" would indicate that.

I didn't call anyone anything.

Anyway, please show me WHY God chose you over any other sinner. That would suffice.

Here's two reasons from scripture.

For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:15 HCSB)

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (Ephesians 1:11 NASB)

 

[Hammster]

If you consider this comment a "refutation", I guess that's the best that you could do. But I gave verses for every point except the first one, which is self evident. I could have given Rom 5:12-15.

To charge that my verses weren't "in context" with each point is disingenuous of you.

I have requested a refutation of my points. Disingenuous responses without any refutation isn't acceptable.

I'm still looking for a refutation, if my view is wrong. I've given verses that back up my points.

No, it wasn't a refutation. It was an observation. If I were to refute it, I'd have to do the exegesis myself. It seems that is how it goes with synergists. They post verses in a vacuum and then expect us to do the work for them. No thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is it that you are linking those verses?

Easy. Romans 9 says that God has compassion on who He will have compassion. How does Isa 55:7 not link to that? It explains WHO He will have compassion or mercy on; the repenters.

No reference to the Isaiah passage. But he does reference Exodus.

Rom 9:16 links directly with Ex 9:13-17
13Then the LORD said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 14“For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. 15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17“Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.

Please take note of v.17. If God was the cause of Pharoah's hardness, why in the world did He ask such a question? That makes no sense. It amazes me that people can't see the obvious here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, it wasn't a refutation. It was an observation. If I were to refute it, I'd have to do the exegesis myself. It seems that is how it goes with synergists. They post verses in a vacuum and then expect us to do the work for them. No thanks.

Your comments continue to be very disingenuous for no apparent reason.

My didn't quote any verse "in a vacuum" as you erroneously charge. I cited verses that back up my points of theology.

Your "defense" that you'd have to do the "exegesis" in order to refute my points only really means that you'd have to explain from the viewpoint of Calvinism the verses I used, like you did with Heb 2:9, in order to make those verses NOT mean what they say. No, thanks.

My points are clear, and supported by verses that SAY what my points are.

btw, a refutation doesn't have to "exegete" my verses. You could more easily show me clear Scripture that SAYS different than what my points SAY.

And, btw, truth cannot be refuted. If you are holding to the truth, it should be easy to refute anyone's position that is not truth.

I see that you're struggling to refute.

 

[Hammster]

Easy. Romans 9 says that God has compassion on who He will have compassion. How does Isa 55:7 not link to that? It explains WHO He will have compassion or mercy on; the repenters.


Rom 9:16 links directly with Ex 9:13-17
13Then the LORD said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 14“For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. 15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17“Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.

Please take note of v.17. If God was the cause of Pharoah's hardness, why in the world did He ask such a question? That makes no sense. It amazes me that people can't see the obvious here.

So if God didn't cause Pharaoh's hardness, why did He said that He did?

 

[Hammster]

Your comments continue to be very disingenuous for no apparent reason.

My didn't quote any verse "in a vacuum" as you erroneously charge. I cited verses that back up my points of theology.

Your "defense" that you'd have to do the "exegesis" in order to refute my points only really means that you'd have to explain from the viewpoint of Calvinism the verses I used, like you did with Heb 2:9, in order to make those verses NOT mean what they say. No, thanks.

My points are clear, and supported by verses that SAY what my points are.

btw, a refutation doesn't have to "exegete" my verses. You could more easily show me clear Scripture that SAYS different than what my points SAY.

And, btw, truth cannot be refuted. If you are holding to the truth, it should be easy to refute anyone's position that is not truth.

I see that you're struggling to refute.

No struggles at all. Just because you disagree with my refutations doesn't mean that there's no refutation.

 

[guuila]

Calvinism DOES provide an excuse for hell dwellers, in that :
#1 Christ didn't die for them. THAT is an excuse.
#2 God didn't choose them for heaven. THAT is an excuse.

I guess if a judge decides to pardon a criminal on death row, every other criminal who wasn't pardoned has an excuse?

 

[guuila]

No, it wasn't a refutation. It was an observation. If I were to refute it, I'd have to do the exegesis myself. It seems that is how it goes with synergists. They post verses in a vacuum and then expect us to do the work for them. No thanks.

He's not a synergist. He's a FreeGrace2ist. You know, cuz that's a lot better LOLZ!!

 

[Hammster]

He's not a synergist. He's a FreeGrace2ist. You know, cuz that's a lot better LOLZ!!

That's okay. I didn't call him a synergist.

 

[crimsonleaf]

That's okay. I didn't call him a synergist.

Good job, because a synergist believes that man meets God half way. Oh...

 

[guuila]

Good job, because a synergist believes that man meets God half way. Oh...

The synergists would all side with him against the Calvinists, but by golly, he ain't no synergist y'all! (I live in Texas so I have the right to talk like that.)

 

[RisingSpirit]

He's not a synergist. He's a FreeGrace2ist. You know, cuz that's a lot better LOLZ!!

The arguments some guys make
sound exactly like those I have
heard from Romanist apologists
defending their false doctrine of
synergistic salvation:

We're saved by a combination of
faith and our own works.

 

[guuila]

The arguments some guys make
sound exactly like those I have
heard from Romanist apologists
defending their false doctrine of
synergistic salvation:

We're saved by a combination of
faith and our own works.

Of course. Arminianism is Roman Catholicism dressed in evening clothes. If faith is something the sinner produces, and is not a gift from God, synergism worked out consistently is a works-based salvation. Thanks be to God he is merciful enough to overlook such gross error, and to save folks despite their opposition to his sovereign, electing grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if God didn't cause Pharaoh's hardness, why did He said that He did?

Why didn't you answer my question, instead of play dodgeball?

Here it is again, for you:

Please take note of v.17. If God was the cause of Pharoah's hardness, why in the world did He ask such a question? That makes no sense.

Can and will you answer this, please?

If you look closely at Ex 9:15,16 you will understand HOW God meant that He hardened Pharoah's heart.

15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

iow, by keeping his sorry carcass alive longer, He was allowing Pharoah to harden further. Very simple.

But, since you still think that God caused Pharoah's hardness directly, rather than indirectly by keeping him alive, as I believe, please proceed with an answer to my question. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No struggles at all. Just because you disagree with my refutations doesn't mean that there's no refutation.

There was nothing to disagree with, since you didn't refute anything.

A disagreement with my view doesn't equal a refutation.