The Achilles Heel of Atheism

[Davian]

With all do respect, atheism does not make much sense to me. It is unreasonable to me. That is why I am not an atheist.

Atheism is not necessarily a reasoned position. It is simply a lack of belief in deities.

Do you think belief is a conscious choice?

I tend to be skeptical when people tell me things like matter creates mind and morality and things like "the universe has always existed" or things like " Jesus never lived".

The above are a few examples. There are more.

Perhaps you have confused "skeptical" with "close-minded" in this context.

I cannot accept those claims as "reasonable".

You are not using reason to evaluate those claims, are you?

If you can then great for you. If irrationality is the price i have to pay for "the freedom to determine my own destiny" which incidentally is something that an atheist like Krauss would deny I even possess, then you can keep it.

But you have not determined your own destiny. You have only convinced yourself of what you wish to be true. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, you are in the same boat as the atheists.

 

[Elioenai26]

Atheism is not necessarily a reasoned position. It is simply a lack of belief in deities.

Do you think belief is a conscious choice?

Perhaps you have confused "skeptical" with "close-minded" in this context.

You are not using reason to evaluate those claims, are you?

But you have not determined your own destiny. You have only convinced yourself of what you wish to be true. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, you are in the same boat as the atheists.

Do you believe that God exists?

 

[Aeroflotte]

Don't answer that question.

 

[Davian]

Do you believe that God exists?

Your question, as it stands, is nonsensical. God is a character in a book. Does Lord Argoz[sup]*[/sup] exist?

(*Narnia)

 

[Elioenai26]

Your question, as it stands, is nonsensical. God is a character in a book. Does Lord Argoz[sup]*[/sup] exist?

(*Narnia)

Then why do you spend time on a Christian forum discussing the issue?

Do you have an affinity for discussing "fictional characters" in books?

Do you like James Patterson's Dr. Cross?

How about Ludlum's Jason Bourne?

 

[HitchSlap]

Then why do you spend time on a Christian forum discussing the issue?

Do you have an affinity for discussing "fictional characters" in books?

Do you like James Patterson's Dr. Cross?

How about Ludlum's Jason Bourne?

"Seek out disputation for disputations sake."

 

[Elioenai26]

"Seek out disputation for disputations sake."

So you like to argue and dispute things for the sake of disputing things.....

You won't mind if I refrain will you?

 

[bhsmte]

Then why do you spend time on a Christian forum discussing the issue?

Do you have an affinity for discussing "fictional characters" in books?

Do you like James Patterson's Dr. Cross?

How about Ludlum's Jason Bourne?

Ludlum is a bad dude!

Probably similar reasons that christians visit atheist forums.

It is also intellectually engaging to many people to banter with others with different views.

Lastly, to me, it is entertaining and intriguing from a psychological stand point.

 

[Elioenai26]

Ludlum is a bad dude!

Probably similar reasons that christians visit atheist forums.

It is also intellectually engaging to many people to banter with others with different views.

Lastly, to me, it is entertaining and intriguing from a psychological stand point.

Ok.

 

[Davian]

Then why do you spend time on a Christian forum discussing the issue?

I spend time in philosophy forums discussing reasons for why people believe the things they do. That they be fictional or not is a side issue.

Why do you spend your time prosthelytizing in a philosophy forum? Do you think it is appropriate? Do you do it here because you know it will be tolerated, where other forum sites may clamp down on your preaching?

Do you have an affinity for discussing "fictional characters" in books?

Have I not given my reasons for being here to you previously?

Do you like James Patterson's Dr. Cross?

How about Ludlum's Jason Bourne?

Interesting topics for discussion, but you should start a new thread.

 

[HitchSlap]

So you like to argue and dispute things for the sake of disputing things.....

You won't mind if I refrain will you?

Of course. It's why you're here too.

I don't blame you for refraining.

 

[Tnmusicman]

Personally, I do not make the statement that there´s life on other planets.
Yet, I see problems with your analogy.
We have evidence that life is possible in this universe. I don´t see any reason to assume that earth is the only place with conditions that allow for life.


I have never been to Australia, and I don´t recall ever having read or heard anything about it, but I believe that there are apple trees growing in Australia. Do you think that this belief - particularly in light of the fact that I have no information regarding the issue - is unjustified?

You are missing my point. I've conceded life could be on other planets. It's the issue with someone who does not believe in God without evidence WILL SAY that they believe there is life ( not possibly but mathmatically probable ) without evidence. Life on this planet has nothing to do with probability of life on other planets as quite a few have pointed out the rest of the known universe is pretty hostile to life surviving or even coming to be.

The point is those claiming life is probable without evidence are in no better position than the theist (as far as actual proof is concerned, not just probability).

 

[Gadarene]

Except the point you keep missing is that they do have evidence.

 

[Tnmusicman]

I am paying attention. I'm telling you that you are wrong and trying to explain why. You are trying to exclude life on Earth as if it does not matter. The point I am trying to make is that it matters a great deal. You are artificially trying to limit the set of things we have evidence of life for in order to equate it with the lack of evidence we have of deities. We have a huge body of evidence that shows that life started and evolved on this planet. We can extrapolate from this that it is likely to happen elsewhere. Simply claiming (paraphrasing) "Excluding life on earth we have no evidence of life on other planets" while technically correct it seems an invalid comparison to me. I would state it like such:

In the universe we have observed so far we have no empirical evidence for deities. In the universe we have observed so far we have one planet full of empirical evidence for life.

We have observed life. We know it happens. We know that on this planet it started out very simple and evolved. That IS evidence for life on other planets. It most certainly is not enough evidence to claim knowledge, but it is enough to get a rough outline of the possibilities.




I do not see it as a contradiction. I see lots of evidence for life. I have seen no evidence I found convincing for deities. That you are trying to limit the empirical evidence to "life on other planets" does not mean I feel compelled to change my stance since that is not the evidence I rely on to make my determination. Does it make sense now?

It made sense before but it appeared you weren't understanding what I was saying. If you look at every post I say that I concede life is possible and I know everyone is saying life on earth is evidence (that being the key word) of life possibly existing on other planets. I've never NOT understood what was being said, I just don't buy into it. That being said it was never about the life on other planets issue. It was about the fact that a number of atheists will say there's evidence (my opinion of evidence is apparent different) of life on other planets (but really there is no evidence of life elsewhere because we have never observed life on another planet with our eyes or our telescopes) and then say they don't believe in God from lack of evidence. I understand, as I always have, that you consider life here as evidence but I don't. I'm falling about someone actually observing life on another celestial site. This is what I have meant from my first post about this.

That IS evidence for life on other planets. It most certainly is not enough evidence to claim knowledge, but it is enough to get a rough outline of the possibilities.

If someone hands me a dollar I have evidence of a dollar. If someone hands me a quarter and says "don't worry I've got more. You have evidence of that as I just gave you a quarter". Well, no I don't have evidence there is more I only have evidence of what you have given me.

 

[Tnmusicman]

Except the point you keep missing is that they do have evidence.

I know what they are saying and I thought it was apparent that when I talk about evidence I mean actual evidence like "hey, I was peeking thru my telescope and saw some green dude walking around on Mars" kinda evidence.

 

[Gadarene]

No, there isn't. Life on earth doesn't say anything for life elsewhere in the universe.

If life arises according to scientific principles under certain conditions - which everything suggests it did - then it does.

Just like how gravity here suggests how gravity somewhere else in the universe works.

 

[Sectio Aurea]

I know what they are saying and I thought it was apparent that when I talk about evidence I mean actual evidence like "hey, I was peeking thru my telescope and saw some green dude walking around on Mars" kinda evidence.

You dont even have that "peeking thru my telescope" type of evidence for your god, yet you willingly believe in it. Why do you need "peeking thru my telescope" evidence to believe in the probability of alien life?

The fact that there is life on Earth means it is probable life exists elsewhere too. It would be a reasonable proposition to assume as there are billions of other galaxies.

If we knew for certain one god does exist in the universe then it is probable that other gods exist also.

But there is not one shred of credible evidence that even one of the 3 million gods known to man actually exists.

 

[KCfromNC]

Then why do you spend time on a Christian forum discussing the issue?

/me Looks at thread title and identity of OP.

If you're so sure you're right about god existing why do you spend time posting about atheism?

 

[Cearbhall]

I encourage you to comtinue to come here and visit with us lowly Christians whenever you are unable to find one in academia to converse with. We love to have you here.

Sometimes it takes a bit to find a better crowd than the "Satan was the first homosexual" and "Fossils are just Satan trying to trick you" people on here, but it's worth it for the quality discussions.

 

[Elioenai26]

Sometimes it takes a bit to find a better crowd than the "Satan was the first homosexual" and "Fossils are just Satan trying to trick you" people on here, but it's worth it for the quality discussions.

LOL!

A weird crowd indeed!

I would not even entertain such foolishness.

If that is really your main reason for not wanting to talk with Christians here, I am happy to tell you that we are not all the same!