Finding limitations in Naturalism

[kellhus]

Me? Not me. All the external references used the same terminology I used. They used terms like *voltage* and *current*. You're the one that seems to have their own personal lingo going, not me. I cited several different WIKI references, and LM produced two of his own that said exactly the same thing!

So far neither of you has provided an external reference that *did not* talk about current and voltages in fact.

Michael, I really don't care. As long as you understand that neurons don't conduct current, you layman can call ionic flux across a channel protein anything that makes you happy.

Just get to the point already.

 

[kellhus]

And.....Were it not for the fact that currents flow in our brains, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Currents don't flow in our brains, they flow across a phospholipid membrane on the nodes of Ranvier on axons of neurons.

 

[Loudmouth]

And.....Were it not for the fact that currents flow in our brains, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Current flows are not nerve impulses.

 

[Michael]

Current flows are not nerve impulses.

It's really too bad that you can't produce so much as a single external reference that actually agrees with you, and the one reference that you did provide (McGraw-Hill) actually called it a "current".

 

[kellhus]

Dear Jesus the willful ignorance is just painful.

 

[Loudmouth]

It's really too bad that you can't produce so much as a single external reference that actually agrees with you, and the one reference that you did provide (McGraw-Hill) actually called it a "current".

They called the movement of sodium ions from the outside of the cell to the inside of the cell the current. That is different from the nerve impulse which is a wave of proteins changing their tertiary structure. Again, you are going to have to do more than find the word "current" in the description. As I have shown repeatedly, any "current" occurs at a right angle to the actual nerve impulse.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

It's really too bad that you can't produce so much as a single external reference that actually agrees with you, and the one reference that you did provide (McGraw-Hill) actually called it a "current".

Understanding the Transmission of Nerve Impulses - For Dummies


Not sure what you are referencing but a current is a constant flow or cycle and an impulse is a inconstant series of flows. Although the word current can be used to define a set path that is inactive. Neurological activities are impulses and currents both by this definition.

The etymology of the words does more to suffice then any science book.

 

[Loudmouth]

"Why do I have the horrifying premonition that you think the brain actually carries current as if it's a bunch of copper wire?"--kellhus

I think your premonition has come true.

 

[Michael]

Dear Jesus the willful ignorance is just painful.

Actually your inability to cite a useful reference that actually supports your claims is really the painful part. What the heck does one image say about anything? How about this one from the same set of images?

Notice that conducting zone?

 

[Loudmouth]

Actually your inability to cite a useful reference that actually supports your claims is really the painful part.

Every reference has supported those claims. You are even shown where there is ion flux at a right angle to the nerve impulse, and you still can't get it.

Notice that conducting zone?

Which way is the conduction occuring?

 

[kellhus]

"Why do I have the horrifying premonition that you think the brain actually carries current as if it's a bunch of copper wire?"--kellhus

I think your premonition has come true.

Clearly.

Actually your inability to cite a useful reference that actually supports your claims is really the painful part. What the heck does one image say about anything? How about this one from the same set of images?

Notice that conducting zone?

Well, it's from 2001, which in neurobiology makes it a fossil, and factually incorrect, since myelin does not conduct electricity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJe3_3XsBOg

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Understanding the Transmission of Nerve Impulses - For Dummies


Not sure what you are referencing but a current is a constant flow or cycle and an impulse is a inconstant series of flows. Although the word current can be used to define a set path that is inactive. Nerves are impulses and currents both by this definition

The etymology of the words does more to suffice then any science book.

Then what is Morse code? What is AC current where the electrons wiggle back and forth, with but a slow drift along the wire? What is a relaxation oscillator?

Pulsed-current versus constant-voltage light-emitting electrochemical cells with trifluoromethyl-substituted cationic iridium(iii) complexes - Journal of Materials Chemistry C (RSC Publishing)

Apparently you didn't bother to read it.
Understanding the Transmission of Nerve Impulses - For Dummies

Cell membranes surround neurons just as any other cell in the body has a membrane. When a neuron is not stimulated — it's just sitting with no impulse to carry or transmit — its membrane is polarized. Not paralyzed. Polarized. Being polarized means that the electrical charge on the outside of the membrane is positive while the electrical charge on the inside of the membrane is negative.

When the neuron is inactive and polarized, it's said to be at its resting potential. It remains this way until a stimulus comes along.

Do you understand resting potential?

Resting potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The relatively static membrane potential of quiescent cells is called the resting membrane potential (or resting voltage), as opposed to the specific dynamic electrochemical phenomena called action potential and graded membrane potential.

Remember that when the neuron was polarized, the outside of the membrane was positive, and the inside of the membrane was negative. Well, after more positive ions go charging inside the membrane, the inside becomes positive, as well; polarization is removed and the threshold is reached.

They rush in because negative and positive attract.

then perhaps you should read up on depolarization:

Repolarization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And finally you should try to understand hyperpolarization:

Hyperpolarization (biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, it's from 2001, which in neurobiology makes it a fossil, and factually incorrect, since myelin does not conduct electricity.

No mention of currents, and the action potential is called a propogation. They even use my domino analogy. Hmf, go figure.

 

[Loudmouth]

Then what is Morse code? What is AC current where the electrons wiggle back and forth, with but a slow drift along the wire? What is a relaxation oscillator?

A nerve impulse is not the transmission of an electron from one end to the other as it is in metal conductors.

Do you understand resting potential?

Do you understand that a propagating action potential is not a current?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Clearly.



Well, it's from 2001, which in neurobiology makes it a fossil, and factually incorrect, since myelin does not conduct electricity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJe3_3XsBOg

No kidding Sherlock, meylin is the insulation, as in wires, what part of electrical insulation do you not get, it surrounds the axion, insulating it from random electrical impulses from other neurons. My god, you will make something up to keep your non-electrical view won't you.

 

[kellhus]

Then what is Morse code? What is AC current where the electrons wiggle back and forth, with but a slow drift along the wire? What is a relaxation oscillator?

Pulsed-current versus constant-voltage light-emitting electrochemical cells with trifluoromethyl-substituted cationic iridium(iii) complexes - Journal of Materials Chemistry C (RSC Publishing)

Apparently you didn't bother to read it.
Understanding the Transmission of Nerve Impulses - For Dummies





Do you understand resting potential?

Resting potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





They rush in because negative and positive attract.

then perhaps you should read up on depolarization:

Repolarization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And finally you should try to understand hyperpolarization:

Hyperpolarization (biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you understand that none of that is actually a nerve impulse? I can patch clamp a cell and initiate as many of these action potentials, or "currents", as you want, but none of that constitutes a signal along the nerve.

 

[Loudmouth]

No kidding Sherlock, meylin is the insulation, as in wires,

Oh boy. Neurons are not wires.

what part of electrical insulation do you not get, it surrounds the axion, insulating it from random electrical impulses from other neurons. My god, you will make something up to keep your non-electrical view won't you.

If you completely insulated the neuron with myelin there would be no nerve impulse.

 

[Michael]

Well, it's from 2001, which in neurobiology makes it a fossil, and factually incorrect,.....

So WIKI is wrong, your own references are wrong, McGraw-Hill is wrong, and every reference that has been cited so far in this tread is "wrong" apparently?

Even what you're calling an 'action potential" is directly related to voltage differences between various chemicals and the movement of charged particles! Give it a rest already. You're quibbling over terminology apparently and ignoring the physics entirely. If not for the fact that you have positively and negatively charged particles moving around, you'd have no information passing from one location to any other! It's all about charged particles, their charge variations, and the movement of charged particles. Face it, without that movement of charged particles in the brain (aka current), no information would move, and consciousness would not exist.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

A nerve impulse is not the transmission of an electron from one end to the other as it is in metal conductors.



Do you understand that a propagating action potential is not a current?

So say you, although no experts do, funny how that is.
Animation: The Nerve Impulse

What are nerve impulses?

Nerve impulse - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nerve impulses are signals carried along nerve fibers

 

[kellhus]

No kidding Sherlock, meylin is the insulation, as in wires, what part of electrical insulation do you not get, it surrounds the axion, insulating it from random electrical impulses from other neurons.

Because an axon isn't a copper wire. Jesus Christ....

My god, you will make something up to keep your non-electrical view won't you.

Because you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about and I've worked with nerve cells in labs and know, from observing them myself, that nerves don't work like you think.

Go to college and take a introductory neuro class for God's sake.