Messianics and Dispensationalism

[notreligus]

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

 

[dodari]

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

I wouldn't think so. No.

 

[mishkan]

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

I started out as a dispensationalist. Even got my degree at a dispensational school, Washington Bible College. But I am no longer dispy. It was just the best I could find back in 1985.

Since then, I have developed a more comprehensive view of Scripture, where I no longer feel the need to compare/contrast the falsely designated "new" and "old" testaments. That is, after all, the source for all Christian attempts at dividing time into eras, during which different programs of salvation are offered to humanity. That is true for both covenantal and dispensational theologies.

 

[ananda]

Definitely not a dispensationalist or covenant theologist here!

 

[dnc101]

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

I don't think I ever was a strict dispensationalist. You can divide church history into eras just like you can divide world history into eras, and it might (if used correctly) be a good scholastic tool. But to divide Gd's word into two "eras" is to say a constant and consistent Gd, who exists outside time, is divided in His thoughts and actions.

The biggest problem is when you say that the Jews had their era, now it is our (gentiles) turn to be the favored sons. Gd is no respecter of persons- He doesn't show favorites. He does call His church to serve, and that church was established through Israel, and is still an essentially Hebrew body. We're just grafted on. We may be heirs to the promise through adoption, but Jewish believers are heirs by birth. One Gd, one body of believers.

Another huge problem is the concept of salvation. There was not one way for the Jew and one way for gentiles. It has always been by our faith and trust, through His grace and mercy. It was the same for Adam after the fall; it was the same for Abraham; it was the same for Moses and the nation at Sinai, and it is the same with Yeshua.

It's all one book. We're all one church. All by the hand of one author.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if you found ANY dispensationalist Messianics ... I take that back, there could be one or two lurking on this forum- that wouldn't surprise me! But as I see it, dispensationalism would have to go against any Messianic belief system.

Why do you ask?

Dan C

P.S.: you are religious, you just haven't figured it out yet.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I like to think about what an observant Jew told me about the days of the King, the 2000 years of the king when he would come teaching the secrets of Torah.

 

[visionary]

IN the first two thousand years.. the children sired were introduced .... with this intro "the father of...." After that .. the next two thousand years.. the children were intoduced as "....the son of".. By this time we reach the time of Yeshua and the geneology mentioned ends with Him... and we have been introduced to the world as the "children of God". Would that be three dispensations... one under the Father, one under the Son, and now one under the Holy Spirit?

 

[Shimshon]

?

 

[Shimshon]

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

Yes, and no. I like Ariel Ministries response here:

While Messianic Jews are not for the most part dispensational anymore in the broadest sense, they are more dispensational than anything else in that they certainly believe about God's future for Israel, etc., and so they adopt in whole what Dispensationalism teaches about the future of Israel. Where the non-dispensational aspects come in have to do with two things. First of all, they believe they are still under the Law (with major adjustments) and therefore, reject the dispensational teaching that the Law has come to an end when Messiah died. Second, they tend to reject Pretribulationalism (which is a tenet of Dispensationalism) mostly because they do not understand what it teaches more than anything else.

In summary, Messianic Jewish believers generally do not embrace Covenant Theology and are more dispensational than anything else, but they are not consistent Dispensationalists as we think of the term. However, there is one Messianic group that definitely is committed to Dispensationalism, and that is the Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC), which holds solidly to dispensational teachings and principles. Here at Ariel Ministries we are committed to Dispensationalism and we propagate that in our Camp Shoshanah summer school program and our branches and literature, etc.

Messianic Theology

 

[annier]

Definitely not a dispensationalist or covenant theologist here!

What does that leave you? Especially as a Messianic, and as a Judaism. I truly am surprised you are not a covenantalist.

 

[ananda]

Yes, and no. I like Ariel Ministries response here:

... Second, they tend to reject Pretribulationalism (which is a tenet of Dispensationalism) mostly because they do not understand what it teaches more than anything else ...

Should I be offended by their comment?

 

[annier]

Yes, and no. I like Ariel Ministries response here:


Messianic Theology

Isn't normative Judaism covenantalist?

 

[Shimshon]

Should I be offended by their comment?

Yes, and no. I like Ariel Ministries response here:

In summary, Messianic Jewish believers generally do not embrace Covenant Theology and are more dispensational than anything else, but they are not consistent Dispensationalists as we think of the term

Messianic Theology

I don't know? Should I be offended too? Everyone is entitled an opinion. This is one Messianic ministries viewpoint. I'm quite sure you have yours. Try expressing it without trying to tear someone or something down, no? Wouldn't that be he most Messiah-like thing to do?

 

[dnc101]

Yes, and no. I like Ariel Ministries response here:

While Messianic Jews are not for the most part dispensational anymore in the broadest sense, they are more dispensational than anything else in that they certainly believe about God's future for Israel, etc., and so they adopt in whole what Dispensationalism teaches about the future of Israel. Where the non-dispensational aspects come in have to do with two things. First of all, they believe they are still under the Law (with major adjustments) [the few I know would argue this point- to be under the law is to be condemned; big difference in believing you are "under the law" and believing the Torah is still valid in its entirety and you are still to be observant] and therefore, reject the dispensational teaching that the Law has come to an end when Messiah died. [True] Second, they tend to reject Pretribulationalism (which is a tenet of Dispensationalism) mostly because they do not understand what it teaches more than anything else. [Oh, them idjits!]

In summary, Messianic Jewish believers generally do not embrace Covenant Theology and are more dispensational than anything else, but they are not consistent Dispensationalists as we think of the term. [Well, now either they are or they aren't ...] However, there is one Messianic group that definitely is committed to Dispensationalism, and that is the Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC), which holds solidly to dispensational teachings and principles. Here at Ariel Ministries we are committed to Dispensationalism and we propagate that in our Camp Shoshanah summer school program and our branches and literature, etc. [Well, I stand corrected about there not being any, though I was right that I'd find 'em here if anywhere!]

Thanks. That was actually informative, if somewhat convoluted.


Dan C

edit: you did say "yes and no"- hope you don't take offense at my having a little fun in the reply.

Guess there's no simple answer after all to what a group of people believe ...

Since you are Jewish, can I ask if the sect of Judaism you are from has a significant impact on how you see this question? I (as gentile as ever there was) wouldn't think most Jewish believers would take a dispensationalist view.

 

[Shimshon]

Isn't normative Judaism covenantalist?

In a way. But, true Calvinistic Covenant Theology has nothing whatsoever to do with normative Judaism. CT is systematically replacement theology.

 

[Shimshon]

Thanks. That was actually informative, if somewhat convoluted.

Dan C

Thanks for your response. Do you have anything constructive to add?

 

[dnc101]

Thanks for your response. Do you have anything constructive to add?

Actually, I probably was adding it while you were posting.

Well, that and my previous post, which painfully I had to admit partially needed correcting after you posted this!

Dan C

 

[ananda]

I don't know? Should I be offended too? Everyone is entitled an opinion. This is one Messianic ministries viewpoint. I'm quite sure you have yours. Try expressing it without trying to tear someone or something down, no? Wouldn't that be he most Messiah-like thing to do?

Just pointing out how they painted quite a broad stroke regarding how, allegedly, all Messianics do not understand a certain topic. And yet they are supposedly Messianics themselves ... which means they don't understand it either! How can they be committed to something they themselves admit that they don't understand

 

[Shimshon]

Thanks. That was actually informative, if somewhat convoluted.


Dan C

edit: you did say "yes and no"- hope you don't take offense at my having a little fun in the reply.

Guess there's no simple answer after all to what a group of people believe ...

Since you are Jewish, can I ask if the sect of Judaism you are from has a significant impact on how you see this question? I (as gentile as ever there was) wouldn't think most Jewish believers would take a dispensationalist view.

As a Jew I don't hold to the standard definition of dispensationalism, as taught in seminaries. PretribRAPTURE and replacement theology. So I pose no threat in that way to my Jewish family. And if you really paid attention, neither did Ariel Ministries. This is what was being referenced to by mentioning the "consistency of how Messianic s apply dispensationalism. Pay attention man!

 

[Shimshon]

Again, Everyone is entitled an opinion. This is one Messianic ministries viewpoint. I'm quite sure you have yours. Try expressing it without trying to tear someone or something down, no? Wouldn't that be he most Messiah-like thing to do?

Just pointing out how they painted quite a broad stroke regarding how, allegedly, all Messianics do not understand a certain topic. And yet they are supposedly Messianics themselves ... which means they don't understand it either! How can they be committed to something they themselves admit that they don't understand