Technically speaking, everyone is agnostic

[Elioenai26]

Why do we deserve, by default permanent isolation in a realm devoid of goodness?

You "want" that.

You want, in this life to be atheist, without God....

You most certainly are not going to want to be with Him forever now will you????

 

[Elioenai26]

Muslims desire to be with God forever.

If you mean to say, that Muslims desire to be with Christ forever, then they will be with Him forever....

But Muslims don't say that now do they?

 

[Skavau]

You "want" that.

No, I don't.

You want, in this life to be atheist, without God....

I don't "want" to be an atheist. I just am an atheist because I don't believe in God.

You most certainly are not going to want to be with Him forever now will you????

Not wanting to be with God =/= Wanting to live in exile from good for eternity.

Not believing in God =/= Not believing in good.

 

[Skavau]

If you mean to say, that Muslims desire to be with Christ forever, then they will be with Him forever....

But Muslims don't say that now do they?

You've just moved the goalposts. You just said that people either want to be with God forever or they don't. I quote:

"Your heart's desire is to either be with God forever or to not be with Him forever."

Muslims want to be with God forever. They may have a different impression of Jesus (and they believe him to be a prophet, by the way) but they still want to be with God. They certainly do not wish to be absent from God.

 

[quatona]

God knows exactly what it is that you want the most.

That, you shall have.

Excellent.

 

[quatona]

You "want" that.

Well, I am assuming that God fortunately won´t ask you of all to tell him what it is that I want. Surely his mind reading skills are better than yours, being omniscient and all.

 

[Elioenai26]

You've just moved the goalposts. You just said that people either want to be with God forever or they don't. I quote:

"Your heart's desire is to either be with God forever or to not be with Him forever."

Muslims want to be with God forever. They may have a different impression of Jesus (and they believe him to be a prophet, by the way) but they still want to be with God. They certainly do not wish to be absent from God.

People throw the word "God" around a lot nowadays.

For some, God means nothing more than some supernatural "force".

So let me be a tad more specific so there will be no confusion....

People either want to be with Christ forever or without Christ forever.

 

[Elioenai26]

No, I don't.


I don't "want" to be an atheist. I just am an atheist because I don't believe in God.


Not wanting to be with God =/= Wanting to live in exile from good for eternity.

Not believing in God =/= Not believing in good.

That is wonderful...

I would like to encourage you to continue on your search for truth (if you are indeed searching and seeking...)

I am confident that you will find what it is you are looking for.

 

[Gadarene]

You reject Christ, you desire to be without Him now, and forever....

Nope. I do not reject Christ in the way you clain. I reject that the offer you claim I reject does not exist in the first place, as Christ was not divine.

I believe there are those who seek God with their whole heart and God has promised He will reveal Himself to such a one. These people may currently be atheists, buddhists, muslims etc. etc. But when they have an encounter with the Risen Christ, they will become Christians.

Yeah, that promise, while nice, is wrong. The evidence is the testimony of those who seek and God did not reveal himself to them.

Dialogue? Hahaha, that is funny....

God has been speaking for thousands of years. He has spoken in His word. He has spoken through His Son Jesus. He is speaking through the billions of Christians who worship Him and adore Him.

The time is now. He speaks in a thousand and a thousand ways....those who have ears to hear, let them hear....

I meant an actual incontrovertible dialogue, not the subjective and contradictory feelings and thoughts of his followers.

The Bible is not a dialogue, it is one-sided lecturing and instruction.

Your desires are all selfish and self centered, you want a temporary stay of punishment, you want this, you want that, why? So you are not discomforted much? So you do not actually get what you deserve?

No duh, Sherlock. You ASKED ME WHAT I WANTED. And they are not just for myself - for all those who have the temerity to disagree with any given deity.

And again, you have not proven that I deserve eternal punishment over a disagreement. Such is the logic of tyrants and their appeasers.

This only serves to prove my point. You cannot live like a sinner on earth and expect to go to be rewarded with pleasure, peace, and ease in heaven Gadarene.

Depends what the sin is - not all things labelled sin are wrong, but then again, I don't think any sin deserves eternal punishment. And notice, I didn't say there should be NO punishment either - only a proportionate one.

But again, you prefer to lie, smear and misrepresent.

God cannot do certain things. This does not mean He is not omnipotent.

It simply means you do not know what omnipotence means when theologians and philosophers use the term.

I do know what it means - it does not include logically contradictory actions.

Defining God as a being who can't do X, however, is just ad hoc nonsense to justify God's bad behaviour.

And if God really can't do otherwise, then in my opinion it would have been far better that he never chose to create me in the first place, if it was inevitable that I go to hell (an outcome he knew in advance).

You "want" that.

You want, in this life to be atheist, without God....

You most certainly are not going to want to be with Him forever now will you????

I want to be an atheist because that's what the lack of evidence for gods merits, and I want to follow what the evidence suggests.

It would indeed be nice if God is as lovey-dovey as you claim he is, but the actions you claim he has committed are in contradiction to that claim.

 

[Skavau]

People throw the word "God" around a lot nowadays.

For some, God means nothing more than some supernatural "force".

So let me be a tad more specific so there will be no confusion....

People either want to be with Christ forever or without Christ forever.

Muslims would want to be with Christ forever if they viewed Christ as you do. In any case, they cannot be accused as you do atheists of wanting to live without God, can they? Why does God not recognise their sincerity and grant them redemption?

 

[quatona]

People throw the word "God" around a lot nowadays.

For some, God means nothing more than some supernatural "force".

So let me be a tad more specific so there will be no confusion....

People either want to be with Christ forever or without Christ forever.

So when saying "God" here you are toggling between "the greatest conceivable being" and your personal detailed god concept - depending on what serves your argumentative need best at any given moment?

 

[Elioenai26]

It would indeed be nice if God is as lovey-dovey as you claim he is, but the actions you claim he has committed are in contradiction to that claim.

Christ's sacrifice is in contradiction to the claim that He loves us?

 

[Elioenai26]

So when saying "God" here you are toggling between "the greatest conceivable being" and your personal detailed god concept - depending on what serves your argumentative need best at any given moment?

I am assuming people here would be sharp enough to recognize I am a CHRISTian....

I guess that is not so self-evident after all.....

 

[Gadarene]

Christ's sacrifice is in contradiction to the claim that He loves us?

Doing something supposedly good does not change the wrong that was done elsewhere.

That said, I wouldn't call Christ's sacrifice wrong, per se - just not that much of a sacrifice, and rather pointless given that God created the situation in the first place that led to people being at risk of eternal torment for their sins.

The punishment for rejecting the sacrifice is unchanged from what the punishment for not obeying God was previously, of course, and is still as unloving as it ever was.

 

[quatona]

I am assuming people here would be sharp enough to recognize I am a CHRISTian....

Yes, that´s why your previous claim that you would like to discuss based on the definition "the greatest conceivable being" was evidently dishonest, and the fact that you would immediately change your tune predictable.

I guess that is not so self-evident after all.....

What´s evident is that you have no qualms to use any logical fallacy you can get hold of - here: false equivocation.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Nor would I want to be in a place that is the permanent absence of good.

You have a lifetime to change your mind.

So I don't, after all, get what I want.

Your problem is that you choose what you do not ultimately want. That's why careful thought is essential.

What nonsense.

There may only be 2 doors but thinking there are different doors, or believing that the doors do not exist do not constitute choosing them door chosen in advance for them. This is like arguing that someone who crosses a busy road carelessly chooses to get hit over by a car.

Firstly, as a humanist I believe that you think there is only one door.

Secondly, I'd advise you to be more careful when crossing. The man who does so carelessly is gambling with his life. He may not choose to get hit by a car, but his choice is certainly nothing about avoiding getting hit. The man who doesn't want to get hit by the car is careful; the man who doesn't care one way or the other takes a chance.

Not following Christ isn't a "careless" wrong decision. You have a whole lifetime to turn to him and failure to do so within the time you have isn't careless, it's deliberate, and whatever you personally believe, it's a gamble.

I don't care what form the eternal torment takes. It is unjust to impose it upon people simply for living a life not up to God's impossible standards. It is also unjust to impose it upon people and insist that they somehow chose it or deserve it. I repeat, and I can't repeat enough that Muslims certainly do not make anywhere near such a choice.

Nobody's asking anyone to life a perfect life. Christians who believe cannot do it; the greatest theological minds cannot do it; the greatest of the saints didn't do it. If you think that's what Christianity is about then you are rejecting a straw man and probably need to do a little more reading up.

Christianity is simply about choosing Christ.

Just curious:

If the torment of hell is purely extreme regret at not repenting in life then what exactly is in heaven worthy of appeal?

The above is one view. Given a choice of heaven or hell no one would ACTIVELY seek hell. But they might ACTIVELY reject heaven.

This is irrelevant.

Muslims choose otherwise. They believe in God. They believe in many similar things to you. They believe they are going to Paradise. They conversely believe you are going to hell.

Suppose Islam is suddenly true.

Would it be just for you to go to hell?

The decision is God's to make. If that's what he decides then it's Just. But then again it would be the God of the Muslims who would be making the decision, so maybe not.

All we can say is that when it comes to the question of eternal destiny we hope and believe that the God we worship is just, and that any decision He makes about the final destiny of sincere worshippers reflects His nature.

 

[Gadarene]

You have a lifetime to change your mind.

Unless he dies tomorrow.

But I'm assuming the omnipotent God isn't in control of that either?

Your problem is that you choose what you do not ultimately want. That's why careful thought is essential.

Well, now we have two Christians claiming two contradictory things. According to Elioenai, we always get what we want. According to you, we don't.

Who to believe?

Firstly, as a humanist I believe that you think there is only one door.

Secondly, I'd advise you to be more careful when crossing. The man who does so carelessly is gambling with his life. He may not choose to get hit by a car, but his choice is certainly nothing about avoiding getting hit. The man who doesn't want to get hit by the car is careful; the man who doesn't care one way or the other takes a chance.

Not following Christ isn't a "careless" wrong decision. You have a whole lifetime to turn to him and failure to do so within the time you have isn't careless, it's deliberate, and whatever you personally believe, it's a gamble.

Again, this fails for the same reason the "drowning man refusing help" analogy fails earlier.

We know cars exist. The same cannot be said for the dilemma God has allegedly placed us in.

Nobody's asking anyone to life a perfect life. Christians who believe cannot do it; the greatest theological minds cannot do it; the greatest of the saints didn't do it. If you think that's what Christianity is about then you are rejecting a straw man and probably need to do a little more reading up.

Christianity is simply about choosing Christ.

Perfection is not a requirement in practice, that doesn't change the fact that it is regularly claimed as the standard by which we fail God and deserve death. It is the reason that we supposedly need to choose Christ.

If that isn't what you're claiming here, then fair enough, but again, who to believe?

The above is one view. Given a choice of heaven or hell no one would ACTIVELY seek hell. But they might ACTIVELY reject heaven.

And whose fault is it that those are the only two options available?

All we can say is that when it comes to the question of eternal destiny we hope and believe that the God we worship is just, and that any decision He makes about the final destiny of sincere worshippers reflects His nature.

Quite - which is why many of us would not sacrifice our integrity if it turned out the God of the Bible as described by many of his followers did exist.

 

[Elioenai26]

That said, I wouldn't call Christ's sacrifice wrong, per se - just not that much of a sacrifice, and rather pointless given that God created the situation in the first place that led to people being at risk of eternal torment for their sins.

The punishment for rejecting the sacrifice is unchanged from what the punishment for not obeying God was previously, of course, and is still as unloving as it ever was.

If Christ's sacrifice is the means by which God chooses to extend His mercy, love and forgiveness to humanity that is desperately in need of it, how could said sacrifice be rightly labeled as "pointless"?

Because God created humans with the ability to choose between right and wrong???

Is that your answer Gadarene? If so, how does that follow?

 

[Skavau]

You have a lifetime to change your mind.

I already have decided. I wouldn't want to live in a realm where there is no good. That doesn't mean I repent of anything, it just means that Elioenai is setting out a false choice.

Your problem is that you choose what you do not ultimately want. That's why careful thought is essential.

I am not choosing anything full stop. To me, Christianity is without evidence and there is no reason to accept it. God may well impose upon humanity a choice but it does not mean everyone notices, or accepts it, or thinks that some other choice exists.

Firstly, as a humanist I believe that you think there is only one door.

Correct. What of it? Perhaps humanity can one day change that. I certainly don't contend we choose to go through that door (excluding those who commit suicide).

Secondly, I'd advise you to be more careful when crossing. The man who does so carelessly is gambling with his life. He may not choose to get hit by a car, but his choice is certainly nothing about avoiding getting hit. The man who doesn't want to get hit by the car is careful; the man who doesn't care one way or the other takes a chance.

But he's not choosing to get hit by a car. That was my point.

Not following Christ isn't a "careless" wrong decision. You have a whole lifetime to turn to him and failure to do so within the time you have isn't careless, it's deliberate, and whatever you personally believe, it's a gamble.

You set this up rather unbecomingly as some kind of wager. I cannot believe in Christianity until I am convinced that is true. That you would describe an honest assertion of my conviction (or non-conviction in this case) as a "gamble" is sinister really and reflects poorly on your belief morally.

Nobody's asking anyone to life a perfect life. Christians who believe cannot do it; the greatest theological minds cannot do it; the greatest of the saints didn't do it. If you think that's what Christianity is about then you are rejecting a straw man and probably need to do a little more reading up.

That is the condition, at least as Elioenai is representing to enter heaven as a non-Christian.

Christianity is simply about choosing Christ.

Indeed. To hell with all those who don't believe in Christ or believe in a different salvation. Quite literally.

Unless you're a universalist, of course.

The above is one view. Given a choice of heaven or hell no one would ACTIVELY seek hell. But they might ACTIVELY reject heaven.

Yes, they might.

I would reject heaven not on the basis of its contents necessarily but also on the character of the God offering it to me.

The decision is God's to make. If that's what he decides then it's Just. But then again it would be the God of the Muslims who would be making the decision, so maybe not.

What an absurd amoral assertion.

By this logic, if God declares murder as acceptable it is just. If God declares rape as acceptable it is just. Anything goes or does not go and it entirely depends on what God wants. This is arbitrary. This is capricious and I submit it is nothing resembling morality.

If the "God of the Muslims" happens to exist then it is at the expense of the Christian God's existence. For all intents and purposes, that God would be the one deserving (by Elioenai's argument) of permanent reverence and respect. That he is not who you thought should not be a factor.

All we can say is that when it comes to the question of eternal destiny we hope and believe that the God we worship is just, and that any decision He makes about the final destiny of sincere worshippers reflects His nature.

But this is meaningless.

You would describe anything God does as "just". "Just" seems to have no meaning to you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If Christ's sacrifice is the means by which God chooses to extend His mercy, love and forgiveness to humanity that is desperately in need of it, how could said sacrifice be rightly labeled as "pointless"?

Because God created humans with the ability to choose between right and wrong???

Is that your answer Gadarene? If so, how does that follow?

Actually, if you read Genesis, he didn't create humans with the ability to choose between right and wrong. He did, however, punish them for acquiring that ability by casting them out of the garden and cursing their descendants.