Universal Healthcare is a Human Right

[Spiritlight]

We have universal healthcare here and i have always taken it for granted I could visit a doctor for free even if unemployed. My cash strapped elderly relatives with multiple health issues can visit a doctor for free mostly or at little cost and prescription medicines are subsidised. we havea dual system of private healthcare and baseline state sponsored healthcare. private is for better treatment with shorter waiting times.

Kids at school in underprivileged households can wait in line and visit a dentist. A baby is born and the government gives the parents 5K to help pay for neccessities.

When we all get working and pay taxes it evens out.[/QUOTE+]But still as you pointed out the people who can afford it will get better treatment ( as it should be) thus you still end up with accessible healthcare and QUALITY affordable healthcare are different things.

I knew i should have edited taht out.

Our basic healthcare is preety good. joining a private healthcare funds reduce tax at the end of the year and boosts funding of the system.

YO we stil all pay 1.5% of our tax each year if you pay tax to pay for it, so its not totally free. Its free if your working or down and out.

where private health insurance is good is in the same good quality hospital insteaed of getting in line and waiting for elective surgery yuo could pay for a private doctor in a private hospital ( or the same one) and get prioritized if possible rather than use.

PRivate health cover is gtgreat for glasses and the dentist.

Say if I go to hospital today because of a stroke.

An ambulance wil get me asap. - The health insurer will pay for that. (for an aussie on welfare its free).

I will go to a qood quality nearby hospital hospital, (a choice of 3).

A neurosurgeon will operate and because it is not elective, medicare should pay for it for free.
when I am admitted my family would admit me as private in the same hospital and that eventually would have benefits with things like a private room instead ofa shared ward.

WE all get ame level of care just a different arrangement.

if you have something drastic go wrong Private healthcare funds picks up the costs beyond what medicare is prepared to pay for. Some doctors charge more than standard fees for services and medicare only pays for standard fees.

The hospital food is always crappy, that is a right of all Australians!

 

[dogs4thewin]

I knew i should have edited taht out.

Our basic healthcare is preety good. joining a private healthcare funds reduce tax at the end of the year and boosts funding of the system.

YO we stil all pay 1.5% of our tax each year if you pay tax to pay for it, so its not totally free. Its free if your working or down and out.

where private health insurance is good is in the same good quality hospital insteaed of getting in line and waiting for elective surgery yuo could pay for a private doctor in a private hospital ( or the same one) and get prioritized if possible rather than use.

PRivate health cover is gtgreat for glasses and the dentist.

Say if I go to hospital today because of a stroke.

An ambulance wil get me asap. - The health insurer will pay for that. (for an aussie on welfare its free).

I will go to a qood quality nearby hospital hospital, (a choice of 3).

A neurosurgeon will operate and because it is not elective, medicare should pay for it for free.
when I am admitted my family would admit me as private in the same hospital and that eventually would have benefits with things like a private room instead ofa shared ward.

WE all get ame level of care just a different arrangement.

if you have something drastic go wrong Private healthcare funds picks up the costs beyond what medicare is prepared to pay for. Some doctors charge more than standard fees for services and medicare only pays for standard fees.

The hospital food is always crappy, that is a right of all Australians!

Either way though, say I have money and I want treatment now ( mid range treatment not COMPLETELY elective but for example I NEED the treatment but it is not life threatening at that moment. Will I pay up and get at the head of the line or will I stand there and wait my turn behind folks who have no option? I think I would buy the private and get help THEN.

 

[Spiritlight]

Either way though, say I have money and I want treatment now ( mid range treatment not COMPLETELY elective but for example I NEED the treatment but it is not life threatening at that moment. Will I pay up and get at the head of the line or will I stand there and wait my turn behind folks who have no option? I think I would buy the private and get help THEN.

You cant just do that. the insureres have rules prohibiting people with preexisting conditions to join when they feel like it. You might have to wit 6 months on some funds if your doing that. The idea is you keep paying into it all the time or use the medicare system only.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You cant just do that. the insureres have rules prohibiting people with preexisting conditions to join when they feel like it. You might have to wit 6 months on some funds if your doing that. The idea is you keep paying into it all the time or use the medicare system only.

no I know you cannot join once you get sick but join BEFORE then and you get help quicker (usually) There is a REASON people who are sick can not get insurance because it COST more that will be the same with any system. If you read an earlier post of mine you will note that NOT ONLY do I not support the healthcare system not only do I believe people should have the right to not pay into the system as long as they are willing to not take a penny out when they get sick. I also have made decisions about healthcare I have NO plans of seeking when and if I need it no matter how old I am or who is or is not paying for it.

 

[FreedByte]

That's not the case at all. Fannie and Freddie weren't officially taken over by the government until 2008.

Depends how you define "taken over", but Fannie and Freddie have been chartered companies well before the recession. Plus, Fannie and Freddie were not the only problem. Think if you were a big bank giving out mortgages and you knew the Federal Reserve would bail you out if you failed, you would make risky loans to people who couldn't afford them. So, the government is the problem because big banks know they will receive bailouts if they make risky loans and fail.

Whether or not the legal term is in place they would still have corporations.

Not really, the government could do away with corporations as a separate legal identity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

Also, totally de-unionizing would be pointless. Because of unions workers in the United States are afforded tons of rights they didn't have in the first place. It just allows for less fair practice.

Not at all. Unions might help those who already have work, but totally ruin the lives of those who want a job but cannot get one because the company has to pay the workers it already employs so much. They also often make it nearly impossible for companies to hire the best workers. In the New York City public school system, teachers who were not performing well were literally paid to sit in a room every day because union contract gave the school system a way to fire them that was so complicated and filled with legal trouble that it was cheaper to pay them to do nothing.

Don't listen to the poor corporations can't afford minimum wage nonsense. In Australia the minimum wage is $16 an hour and their unemployment rate is very low. The average American CEO makes so much more than the workers its ludicrous.

Yes, corporations can pay, but startups usually can't. The minimum wage helps big corporations because it squeezes out small business competition.

Nothing has gotten us in more trouble than greed. Its time to put a stop to it.

I agree, and the best way to end the greed is to stop the money that is being stolen from the American taxpayer. Letting the big banks fail will end this profiteering off of the American people and restore economic sanity and proper investment. Sure, it will cause a lot of short term pain, but it's better than the long term pain that we're facing with this never ending national debt and Quantitative Easing Infinity to keep the economy artificially up for as long as possible.

Also, remember not one single government has run under a Libertarian model in recorded history. There's probably a reason for that.

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

You talk about people being greedy, but don't you see that the reason there has never been a truly libertarian society is that people who seek power are naturally going to oppose individual liberty? At the heart of libertarianism is volutaryism, the political philosophy that holds that all human interaction should be voluntary. This is what humanity should strive for as it is the most peaceful political philosophy. Remember that the only way that the government can obtain income is through force or threat of force, and that is certainly not peaceful.

 

[Spiritlight]

I dont get it why on earth would anyone object to state supplied health care for all? Wasn't Jesus about getting us to share our possessions to give to the poor and needy? Healthcare for everyone is just that. It means the most vulnerable members of society are protected like anyone else. Wouldn't God bless a country doing that?

 

[FreedByte]

I dont get it why on earth would anyone object to state supplied health care for all? Wasn't Jesus about getting us to share our possessions to give to the poor and needy? Healthcare for everyone is just that. It means the most vulnerable members of society are protected like anyone else. Wouldn't God bless a country doing that?

Why on earth would anyone support a state that forces people to give to the poor? I don't remember anything in the Bible saying that we should force people to be charitable. Jesus said to try to compel people to give what they have to the poor, not elect people who will pay people to point guns at people to make them pay for someone else's healthcare. That is violence and Jesus never advocated for that. The government earns income through force or threat of force, and that is not peaceful.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

The fact is NOTHING is free. What would happen if I owned a house and decided not to pay the house payment? Or if I walk into a store with no credit card money ECT and try to get something? or if I do not own my car flat and decide not to pay the car payment? In ALL of those cases ( even if you HAVE to have that item a house, clothing for the whether ECT. You will either lose the item OR in some cases the person will have the OPTION of charging you with a crime and you get taken to jail. Where you will (usually) unless they let you go on your OR which depends on a number of things) remain until you either go to trial or make bail.

But credit cards, excessive clothing, and large large houses are not the subject... which is the Right to Life. John 10:10b Jesus, who is God, says, “I came so that they could have life—indeed, so that they could live life to the fullest.”

Health care is far, far more important than the extra piece of clothing, or a credit card, or something bought from the store.

The quality of health care given to a person, in a way, states how much their lives are worth - for it is their LIFE which is directly affected by it. It is a life and death issue, a quality of life issue, a length of life issue.

Is not a person's life worth more than a piece of money? Is not a person worth more than money?

A person is priceless - they are worth more than any material item in the world. Shouldn't they be treated like they are worth more than a materialistic item? More than money? Like a person who's life is worth something?

Why should I pay for taxes if I say that I do not want treatment?

What if you were unconscious, wouldn't you want someone to take care of you?

By the way, actually that was poorly worded you COULD receive treatment, but ONLY if the person was willing to make a payment plan with you.
Note not paying would be an option if you wanted treatment you would pay into the system you just would not benefit from the "free" service if you did not. Just as it works with a lease or a work contract you choose to breach you pay the damages.

1 John 3:17 But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won't help him--how can God's love be within him ? 1 John 3:18 Little children, let us stop just saying we love people; let us really love them, and show it by our actions. 1 John 3:19 Then we will know for sure, by our actions, that we are on God's side, and our consciences will be clear, even when we stand before the Lord

Note, I also did not say that you had to pay the same amount into the system no matter what you made it would be based on your income. Another example, my grandfather (almost 77) did not pay as much into the social security when he was younger ( owned his own business for most of that time and actually still does.) However, he still gets some money ( just not as much, but I did not say that the healthcare system would work on how much you paid in only rather you did or not.

Luke 12:33 Sell what you have and give to those in need. This will fatten your purses in heaven! And the purses of heaven have no rips or holes in them. Your treasures there will never disappear; no thief can steal them; no moth can destroy them. Luke 12:34 Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be.

In Ezekiel 34:4a, God points out the failures of the leadership of Israel to care for the weak: “You don’t strengthen the weak, heal the sick, bind up the injured, bring back the strays, or seek out the lost."

ALL deserve equal access to health care and quality of health care, a Right to Life.

"Many followed Jesus, and he healed all their sick" (Matthew 12:15). Jesus didn't exclude those with pre-existing conditions or low income or unemployment. "All" was universal--everyone.

 

[FreedByte]

But credit cards, excessive clothing, and large large houses are not the subject... which is the Right to Life. John 10:10b Jesus, who is God, says, “I came so that they could have life—indeed, so that they could live life to the fullest.”

Yes, we each have a right to our life, but we do not have a right to someone else's. You are suggesting that each and every one of us has the right to the services of a doctor. That is immoral because it requires force or threat of force for the government to guarantee that the finances are available for implementation, which is violent.

Health care is far, far more important than the extra piece of clothing, or a credit card, or something bought from the store.

I agree, but I still don't believe in forcing people to pay for other peoples' healthcare because I don't believe in violence. I believe we should compel people to follow Jesus, not force them to be charitable, which is violent and un-Christian.

A person is priceless - they are worth more than any material item in the world. Shouldn't they be treated like they are worth more than a materialistic item? More than money? Like a person who's life is worth something?

Yes, they absolutely should. And it is our responsibility as Christians to choose to help those in need so that they can receive the care they need. We are not called to threaten others with incarceration if they aren't charitable.

1 John 3:17 But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won't help him--how can God's love be within him ? 1 John 3:18 Little children, let us stop just saying we love people; let us really love them, and show it by our actions. 1 John 3:19 Then we will know for sure, by our actions, that we are on God's side, and our consciences will be clear, even when we stand before the Lord

Luke 12:33 Sell what you have and give to those in need. This will fatten your purses in heaven! And the purses of heaven have no rips or holes in them. Your treasures there will never disappear; no thief can steal them; no moth can destroy them. Luke 12:34 Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be.

Exactly! We are called to give what we have to the poor, not take from others to give to the poor.

In Ezekiel 34:4a, God points out the failures of the leadership of Israel to care for the weak: “You don’t strengthen the weak, heal the sick, bind up the injured, bring back the strays, or seek out the lost."

ALL deserve equal access to health care and quality of health care, a Right to Life.

While it may be true that all deserve it, it is immoral for the government to implement because it requires threatening people with force if they don't pay for others' healthcare which is violence.

"Many followed Jesus, and he healed all their sick" (Matthew 12:15). Jesus didn't exclude those with pre-existing conditions or low income or unemployment. "All" was universal--everyone.

Yes, and we are called as Christians to do the same: to support the disadvantaged with our own finances and our own work, not by taking from others and giving to the poor. There is nothing Christian about that.

 

[Spiritlight]

te

Either way though, say I have money and I want treatment now ( mid range treatment not COMPLETELY elective but for example I NEED the treatment but it is not life threatening at that moment. Will I pay up and get at the head of the line or will I stand there and wait my turn behind folks who have no option? I think I would buy the private and get help THEN.

private health insurance for myself my wife and 2 kids costs $80 a fortnight, its no big deal. That also reduces the cost of alternative therapies, dental, optical, massahes, physiotherapy. MY fund reduced the cost of those things by giving you 65% back. It does that til it reaches a limit on each one $250- $600 a year on each one. our healthcare system is a hybrid weird thing where much of it is subsidised by the government andwe all pay a tax levy of a few hundred bucks a year in our tax returns. If we had a totally non government privatised system it would cost us heaps more and many of us would have to have second rate or no health care.

I like it just how it is because everyone around me can get access to cheap or free health care when they need it no matter what.

We are a wealthy country with a good standard of living and I am so glad the government takes care of the poor because we work hard and pay tax all our lives why shouldn't it be subsidised, throughout the highs and lows of our lives.

I am so lucky I was born an Aussie because I have been broke and needed that at times years ago.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But credit cards, excessive clothing, and large large houses are not the subject... which is the Right to Life. John 10:10b Jesus, who is God, says, “I came so that they could have life—indeed, so that they could live life to the fullest.”

Health care is far, far more important than the extra piece of clothing, or a credit card, or something bought from the store.

The quality of health care given to a person, in a way, states how much their lives are worth - for it is their LIFE which is directly affected by it. It is a life and death issue, a quality of life issue, a length of life issue.

Is not a person's life worth more than a piece of money? Is not a person worth more than money?

A person is priceless - they are worth more than any material item in the world. Shouldn't they be treated like they are worth more than a materialistic item? More than money? Like a person who's life is worth something?


What if you were unconscious, wouldn't you want someone to take care of you?


1 John 3:17 But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won't help him--how can God's love be within him ? 1 John 3:18 Little children, let us stop just saying we love people; let us really love them, and show it by our actions. 1 John 3:19 Then we will know for sure, by our actions, that we are on God's side, and our consciences will be clear, even when we stand before the Lord


Luke 12:33 Sell what you have and give to those in need. This will fatten your purses in heaven! And the purses of heaven have no rips or holes in them. Your treasures there will never disappear; no thief can steal them; no moth can destroy them. Luke 12:34 Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be.

In Ezekiel 34:4a, God points out the failures of the leadership of Israel to care for the weak: “You don’t strengthen the weak, heal the sick, bind up the injured, bring back the strays, or seek out the lost."

ALL deserve equal access to health care and quality of health care, a Right to Life.

"Many followed Jesus, and he healed all their sick" (Matthew 12:15). Jesus didn't exclude those with pre-existing conditions or low income or unemployment. "All" was universal--everyone.

NOTHING is free so that means that if you only have so much MONEY to cover 300million folks the quality either have to be much less for everyone or they can't keep people alive forever so it really is null anynow. They STILL will HAVE to ration healthcare in SOME way. All insure does is say WE will only pay for so much not you cannot have more. The fact of life is NOTHING is free, this includes healthcare and with that that means fairly or not indirectly in that sense a person's life is worth a certain amount. Again did I say that was fair? no I said it was a fact of life. The higher quality care someone can afford they should have the choice to get it it is THEIR money.

 

[XtianAgain]

Depends how you define "taken over", but Fannie and Freddie have been chartered companies well before the recession. Plus, Fannie and Freddie were not the only problem. Think if you were a big bank giving out mortgages and you knew the Federal Reserve would bail you out if you failed, you would make risky loans to people who couldn't afford them. So, the government is the problem because big banks know they will receive bailouts if they make risky loans and fail.



Not really, the government could do away with corporations as a separate legal identity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation



Not at all. Unions might help those who already have work, but totally ruin the lives of those who want a job but cannot get one because the company has to pay the workers it already employs so much. They also often make it nearly impossible for companies to hire the best workers. In the New York City public school system, teachers who were not performing well were literally paid to sit in a room every day because union contract gave the school system a way to fire them that was so complicated and filled with legal trouble that it was cheaper to pay them to do nothing.



Yes, corporations can pay, but startups usually can't. The minimum wage helps big corporations because it squeezes out small business competition.



I agree, and the best way to end the greed is to stop the money that is being stolen from the American taxpayer. Letting the big banks fail will end this profiteering off of the American people and restore economic sanity and proper investment. Sure, it will cause a lot of short term pain, but it's better than the long term pain that we're facing with this never ending national debt and Quantitative Easing Infinity to keep the economy artificially up for as long as possible.



"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

You talk about people being greedy, but don't you see that the reason there has never been a truly libertarian society is that people who seek power are naturally going to oppose individual liberty? At the heart of libertarianism is volutaryism, the political philosophy that holds that all human interaction should be voluntary. This is what humanity should strive for as it is the most peaceful political philosophy. Remember that the only way that the government can obtain income is through force or threat of force, and that is certainly not peaceful.

Well, actually at the heart of Libertarianism is Objectivism. A philosophy started by an admittedly Godless woman who got a lot of her ideas for said movement from a sociopath. Something else she freely admitted in an interview. Now let me be clear. I'm not saying you're a sociopath or trying to insult you. But, that's very much the root of Libertarianism.

As far Fannie and Freddie I think we're overlooking corporate greed here. Which by most accounts is the big reason for the toppling of the economy during the last recession. Adjustable mortgage rates and being overzealous with loans. Purposely tricking uneducated people into insane deals, only to have them lose their house and flip the same house for more profit.

Also, on the issues of unions...Are you aware of how many workers rights we obtained directly from unions? Days off, regular breaks, the closure of sweatshops, worker's compensation, medical leave, income equality...The list goes on and on. These are all directly related to unions fighting for rights.

Now I don't know for sure but I'm guess you're not superwealthy. You might be, but my guess is not. Don't be fooled by the powers that be. A lot of money in this nation is going into the pockets of greedy people. We as Americans deserve better.

 

[Spiritlight]

We as Americans deserve better.

Come over here dude there is free healthcare and no stupid guns everywhere

 

[dbcsf]

Come over here dude there is free healthcare and no stupid guns everywhere

I would love to move there. You have a wonderful country. I have too many family members I have to visit back here. Should have done it when I was footloose and fancy free.

 

[FreedByte]

Well, actually at the heart of Libertarianism is Objectivism. A philosophy started by an admittedly Godless woman who got a lot of her ideas for said movement from a sociopath. Something else she freely admitted in an interview. Now let me be clear. I'm not saying you're a sociopath or trying to insult you. But, that's very much the root of Libertarianism.

You are wrong here. I am vehemently anti-objectivist. Objectivism states that the moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of their own happiness, which is incompatible with Christianity. Voluntaryism states that the initiation of aggression/force against another person or their property is immoral, which is "love your neighbor as yourself". Not only that, but Ayn Rand's foreign policy was fully incompatible with voluntaryism.

Please read if you are interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism

As far Fannie and Freddie I think we're overlooking corporate greed here. Which by most accounts is the big reason for the toppling of the economy during the last recession. Adjustable mortgage rates and being overzealous with loans. Purposely tricking uneducated people into insane deals, only to have them lose their house and flip the same house for more profit.

Greed is at the heart of the issue. If there were no bailouts and no "too big to fail", it would have not been in the banks' best interest to be overzealous with loans. It isn't advisable to give loans to people who cannot pay you back because you lose money and have to use resources selling houses, unless of course you know you will receive assistance from the government, in which case there is no risk and you can be greedy dishing out high risk loans to maximize profit knowing you will be subsidized if you have losses.

Also, on the issues of unions...Are you aware of how many workers rights we obtained directly from unions? Days off, regular breaks, the closure of sweatshops, worker's compensation, medical leave, income equality...The list goes on and on. These are all directly related to unions fighting for rights.

I am fine with voluntarily organized labor, but once the government says that you have to join a union to work a certain job that is forceful and violent and therefore immoral.

Now I don't know for sure but I'm guess you're not superwealthy. You might be, but my guess is not. Don't be fooled by the powers that be. A lot of money in this nation is going into the pockets of greedy people. We as Americans deserve better.

I used to be fooled by the powers that be and by the 1%. That was when I thought that the government was the solution to the problem, rather than the cause.

I think you are missing that voluntaryism is not a particularly right-wing political philosophy, and it is even considered leftist by some. Think about it, there aren't even any copyright laws.

Fun fact: Thomas Jefferson didn't believe in copyright/patent law either

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it . . . That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from any body."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Isaac McPherson, Monticello, August 13, 1813

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

There are advantages to having a free market system. Our own country currently offers the opportunity for the best healthcare available in the world. Japan does well, but we actually offer the very best, across the board. Leaders and millionaires preferentially come to the U.S. for advanced healthcare. We lead the world in the invention of new medical devices and bringing new drugs to market. No other country compares. That is free market power.

Actually, the U.S. is last when it comes to health care tourism. It is another myth perpetuated by those who want the Americans to think otherwise and that supposedly the our health care is "#1 choice for people worldwide":

Quite the contrary...
Luxemburg is first, U.S. #26, LAST, according to the OECD report from 2011 (which surveyed 26 countries):

The U.S., with its poor healthcare taking the rights of people of their Right to Life, is the last place medical tourists want to go to.

The big drawback is that millions of our citizens do not have healthcare. They are forced to go to the ER.

Then, IF they make it to the ER, they may receive less care than the person next to them with insurance (less quality), or IF they get there (if they don't hold out so long that they die first), it may be too late. Afterwards, if they survive this, they may not be able to receive the same amounts of surgery, specialized medical care, and quality of care those with money can receive, meaning their lives are treated as worth less, compared to the person beside them, like their lives are worth less than a materialist item called the $$$ A piece of paper!

A person's life is worth more than money.

The premature mortality in the U.S. is high (#31... heinous) --- The poor are probably seeing the worst of this.

“If you take two kids from the same demographic background — the same race, same gender, same neighborhood income level and same number of co-morbidities or other illnesses — the kid without insurance is 60 percent more likely to die in the hospital than the kid in the bed right next to him or her who is insured,” said David C. Chang, co-director of the pediatric surgery outcomes group at the children’s center and an author of the study, which appeared today in The Journal of Public Health.

“This study provides further evidence that the need to insure everyone is a moral issue, not just an economic one.”

An estimated seven million children are uninsured in the United States, despite recent efforts to extend coverage under the federal Children’s Health Insurance Program.
Hospitalized Children Without Insurance Are More Likely to Die, a Study Finds - NYTimes.com

""And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 10:42

We are to help and give to children, and currently 23% of America's children are living underneath the poverty line according to UNICEF's 2013 report http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc11_eng.pdf. They rank us #26 in over all children well being (nearly LAST, and LAST in the 2000's and late 2000's section).


Although the research was not set up to identify why uninsured children were more likely to die, it found that they were more likely to gain access to care through the emergency room, suggesting they might have more advanced disease by the time they were hospitalized.



In addition, uninsured children were in the hospital, on average, for less than a day when they died, compared with a full day for insured children. Children without insurance incurred lower hospital charges — $8,058 on average, compared with $20,951 for insured children.

So, people will "pay" mentally, physically, spiritually, politically, economically (as in what kind of economy do you have to have if you have socialized healthcare-Greek for example), and possibly of course with cash or insurance for their healthcare. Everybody pays. Every person pays something. We live in community. We all pay, one way or another, for everything.

When money comes in more importance than a person's life, it is not only heinous, it affects ALL of us.

Especially, our overall lifespan:

Life Expectancy (#27, ouch)

People do not deserve this.

The principle of "free health care to those unable to afford it" is not the only Christian principle in play here. I believe Jesus supports the principle of freedom and the principle of caring for those in need or in poor health, for example. There are probably other Christian principles which also need to be balanced in and considered.

Jesus did not necessarily tell us the specifics of how we are supposed to go about balancing and implementing these principles. And, we do not live in the sociopolitical age in which Jesus lived. Consequently, the application of Christian principles may be very different in our society.

Furthermore, we are not Jesus. We do not cure most people with miracles, wish we did. Our job, as Christians, is to balance the various applicable principles we follow as best we can. That includes planning for ramifications of how following one principle may affect the bigger political and economic lives of all our citizens.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Luke 9:2 and He sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.[/FONT]

Matthew 10:1-2 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] He called his twelve disciples to him....to heal every disease and sickness. 8 Heal the sick..... freely as you receive, freely give.[/FONT]
Jesus's, God's words

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where He was about to go. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’[/FONT]
Jesus's, God's words

Jesus commands us to heal the sick, that the sick need physicians, and to help those who are in need.

We are to teach this to others, to spread this commandments upon others, Jesus, who is God, commands us:

"Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 5:19


People are worth more than materialistic items, more than pieces paper... It's their LIVES!

"Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27"
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 6:25-27

IT IS A RIGHT TO HEALTH, A RIGHT TO LIFE! "

WHO | The right to health
The World Health Organization states Life is a Right:

• The WHO Constitution enshrines the highest attainable standard of health as a fundamental right of every human being.
• The right to health includes access to timely, acceptable, and affordable health care of quality.
• Yet, about 150 million people globally suffer financial catastrophe annually, and 100 million are pushed below the poverty line as a result of health care expenditure. (I'd personally say this would be far, far more, considering that 840,000,000 people cannot even get access to clean water)

There was not a single instance where we ranked #1 in a positive correlation.

The entire 2011: Health at a Glance: OECD Indicators (2011) can be read HERE: http://www.oecd.org/els/healthpolici...a/49105858.pdf

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Jesus's, God's words, John 8:12

LIFE. It is a Right to Life which should be afforded to every human being -- As Jesus, who is God, commanded us.

HE COMMANDS US TO HEAL THE SICK: Luke 9:2, Matthew 10:1-2, Luke 10:1

 

[FreedByte]

Come over here dude there is free healthcare and no stupid guns everywhere

Aka your government takes from the rich to give to the poor and they hire people with big guns to take away guns from people with smaller guns. Don't get me wrong, I don't understand why any Christian would want a gun to protect themselves from other people ("turn the other cheek"), but I simultaneously don't see how it is moral to use someone else's money to hire people with big guns to steal someone else's guns.

 

[LeoWyatt]

The best way to provide decent healthcare for everyone is not something like a single-payer option, but to control prices. One of the best ways to control prices is to foster competition between insurance companies. Another good way is to foster competition between doctors.

Another thing that would help is to prevent frivolous lawsuits against doctors from gaining any ground.

 

[Spiritlight]

Aka your government takes from the rich to give to the poor and they hire people with big guns to take away guns from people with smaller guns. Don't get me wrong, I don't understand why any Christian would want a gun to protect themselves from other people ("turn the other cheek"), but I simultaneously don't see how it is moral to use someone else's money to hire people with big guns to steal someone else's guns.

Its because you have never known any different probably. We are a product of our environments and our understanding is limited to that.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Actually, the U.S. is last when it comes to health care tourism. It is another myth perpetuated by those who want the Americans to think otherwise and that supposedly the our health care is "#1 choice for people worldwide":

Quite the contrary...
Luxemburg is first, U.S. #26, LAST, according to the OECD report from 2011 (which surveyed 26 countries):

The U.S., with its poor healthcare taking the rights of people of their Right to Life, is the last place medical tourists want to go to.

Then, IF they make it to the ER, they may receive less care than the person next to them with insurance (less quality), or IF they get there (if they don't hold out so long that they die first), it may be too late. Afterwards, if they survive this, they may not be able to receive the same amounts of surgery, specialized medical care, and quality of care those with money can receive, meaning their lives are treated as worth less, compared to the person beside them, like their lives are worth less than a materialist item called the $$$ A piece of paper!

A person's life is worth more than money.

The premature mortality in the U.S. is high (#31... heinous) --- The poor are probably seeing the worst of this.

“If you take two kids from the same demographic background — the same race, same gender, same neighborhood income level and same number of co-morbidities or other illnesses — the kid without insurance is 60 percent more likely to die in the hospital than the kid in the bed right next to him or her who is insured,” said David C. Chang, co-director of the pediatric surgery outcomes group at the children’s center and an author of the study, which appeared today in The Journal of Public Health.

“This study provides further evidence that the need to insure everyone is a moral issue, not just an economic one.”

An estimated seven million children are uninsured in the United States, despite recent efforts to extend coverage under the federal Children’s Health Insurance Program.
Hospitalized Children Without Insurance Are More Likely to Die, a Study Finds - NYTimes.com

""And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 10:42

We are to help and give to children, and currently 23% of America's children are living underneath the poverty line according to UNICEF's 2013 report http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc11_eng.pdf. They rank us #26 in over all children well being (nearly LAST, and LAST in the 2000's and late 2000's section).


Although the research was not set up to identify why uninsured children were more likely to die, it found that they were more likely to gain access to care through the emergency room, suggesting they might have more advanced disease by the time they were hospitalized.



In addition, uninsured children were in the hospital, on average, for less than a day when they died, compared with a full day for insured children. Children without insurance incurred lower hospital charges — $8,058 on average, compared with $20,951 for insured children.






When money comes in more importance than a person's life, it is not only heinous, it affects ALL of us.

Especially, our overall lifespan:

Life Expectancy (#27, ouch)

People do not deserve this.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Luke 9:2 and He sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.[/FONT]

Matthew 10:1-2 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] He called his twelve disciples to him....to heal every disease and sickness. 8 Heal the sick..... freely as you receive, freely give.[/FONT]
Jesus's, God's words

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where He was about to go. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’[/FONT]
Jesus's, God's words

Jesus commands us to heal the sick, that the sick need physicians, and to help those who are in need.

We are to teach this to others, to spread this commandments upon others, Jesus, who is God, commands us:

"Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 5:19


People are worth more than materialistic items, more than pieces paper... It's their LIVES!

"Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27"
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 6:25-27

IT IS A RIGHT TO HEALTH, A RIGHT TO LIFE! "

WHO | The right to health
The World Health Organization states Life is a Right:

• The WHO Constitution enshrines the highest attainable standard of health as a fundamental right of every human being.
• The right to health includes access to timely, acceptable, and affordable health care of quality.
• Yet, about 150 million people globally suffer financial catastrophe annually, and 100 million are pushed below the poverty line as a result of health care expenditure. (I'd personally say this would be far, far more, considering that 840,000,000 people cannot even get access to clean water)

There was not a single instance where we ranked #1 in a positive correlation.

The entire 2011: Health at a Glance: OECD Indicators (2011) can be read HERE: http://www.oecd.org/els/healthpolici...a/49105858.pdf

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Jesus's, God's words, John 8:12

LIFE. It is a Right to Life which should be afforded to every human being -- As Jesus, who is God, commanded us.

HE COMMANDS US TO HEAL THE SICK: Luke 9:2, Matthew 10:1-2, Luke 10:1

In a sense fairly or not a person is worth money. Read my earlier post and see that you cannot NOT ration with healthcare by the government, insurance companies ration, only in far as THEY will pay whereas the government would ration and because they are covering more people either the quality of the care would be less for everyone, people would run out of coverage faster or as it is in other nations the people with more money receive better care because they can AFFORD it. Period it may not be fair but it is reality.