Atheists, What's the point?

[Tnmusicman]

I'm interested to know...

What sources have you got that were written at the time of the event by author's of verifiable identity and describe the resurrection of Jesus?

Allow me to give certain points of concern that somewhat round out my belief in the resurrection as an historical event.(I tried to bullet point this but my phone is not letting me for some reason)
Some say Jesus body was stolen but the Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body.
The holy women eyewitnesses are proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. I think a lot of historians would agree that no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in biblical times and i believe their account of witnessing Jesus after His death was rather embarrassing for some yet the Bible says Christ first appeared to Mary and other holy women. The apostles didn't believe Mary when she said Jesus' tomb was empty. Once again, I believe it was a source of embarrassment for the Apostles that Jesus appeared first to women.

Then we have the 500 or so witnesses that attest to Jesus resurrection. A lot if skeptics in the past have claimed it was an hallucination. It would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. The apostles touched Jesus and watched him eat. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus sightings of him stopped.

Also I consider the great change in the disciples as being evidence. Why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead? Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous?
People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they think they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith. Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what event could have caused him to convert?
Concerning the reliability of The Word I refer you to German New Testament CRITIC Gerd Lüdemann,who concludes, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.”
Gary Habermas found that 75% of scholars accept the historicity of the discovery of Jesus’ empty tomb and that there is near universal agreement on the post-mortem appearances. These can therefore be counted as good evidence of the resurrection.

 

[Tiberius]

Some say Jesus body was stolen but the Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body.

You've yet to show that a body even existed.

The holy women eyewitnesses are proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records.

Except they don't agree. They disagree on the number of people they found there, and they disagree on whether they were men or angels.

I think a lot of historians would agree that no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in biblical times and i believe their account of witnessing Jesus after His death was rather embarrassing for some yet the Bible says Christ first appeared to Mary and other holy women. The apostles didn't believe Mary when she said Jesus' tomb was empty. Once again, I believe it was a source of embarrassment for the Apostles that Jesus appeared first to women.

Ah, the old "so crazy it just must be true" argument.

Then we have the 500 or so witnesses that attest to Jesus resurrection. A lot if skeptics in the past have claimed it was an hallucination. It would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. The apostles touched Jesus and watched him eat. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus sightings of him stopped.

Did any of these 500 witnesses leave accounts of this? I'll make it easy. Just show me a hundred of the accounts written by some of these 500 people who were there.

Also I consider the great change in the disciples as being evidence. Why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead?

Who says they did? All we know is that we are TOLD they did. Just because that's the way the story went doesn't mean it is true. After all, James Cameron's Titanic paints Captain Smith as a bit of a jerk, but in real life he was quite a nice guy. How do you know the same thing isn't happening here?

Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous?

Wasn't he told to?

People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they think they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith.

Likewise, I can say that in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Spock sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise from the Genesis Device. Would Spock have done that if the Genesis device was not absolutely deadly? That proves beyond any doubt that the Genesis device is dangerous.

It's still all fiction though.

Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what event could have caused him to convert?

You mean Paul the Apostle?

Concerning the reliability of The Word I refer you to German New Testament CRITIC Gerd Lüdemann,who concludes, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.”

Source please?

Gary Habermas found that 75% of scholars accept the historicity of the discovery of Jesus’ empty tomb and that there is near universal agreement on the post-mortem appearances. These can therefore be counted as good evidence of the resurrection.

Scholars of what? I want the opinions of people who are both in the field AND do not have a bias.

 

[Hovind]

Why do comments that show evidence against Christianity, religion, or the supernatural get removed from the Apologetics section? Didn't there used to be a debate forum where atheists and Christians could discuss? I heard the Christians kept losing so they removed that part of the forum.

 

[Hovind]

Allow me to give certain points of concern that somewhat round out my belief in the resurrection as an historical event.(I tried to bullet point this but my phone is not letting me for some reason)
Some say Jesus body was stolen but the Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body.
The holy women eyewitnesses are proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. I think a lot of historians would agree that no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in biblical times and i believe their account of witnessing Jesus after His death was rather embarrassing for some yet the Bible says Christ first appeared to Mary and other holy women. The apostles didn't believe Mary when she said Jesus' tomb was empty. Once again, I believe it was a source of embarrassment for the Apostles that Jesus appeared first to women.

Then we have the 500 or so witnesses that attest to Jesus resurrection. A lot if skeptics in the past have claimed it was an hallucination. It would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. The apostles touched Jesus and watched him eat. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus sightings of him stopped.

Also I consider the great change in the disciples as being evidence. Why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead? Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous?
People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they think they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith. Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what event could have caused him to convert?
Concerning the reliability of The Word I refer you to German New Testament CRITIC Gerd Lüdemann,who concludes, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.”
Gary Habermas found that 75% of scholars accept the historicity of the discovery of Jesus’ empty tomb and that there is near universal agreement on the post-mortem appearances. These can therefore be counted as good evidence of the resurrection.

The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:
Josephus, Philo-Judaeus, Seneca, Pliny the Elder, Suetonius, Juvenal, Martial, Persius, Plutarch, Justus of Tiberius, Apollonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Quintilian, Lucanus, Epictetus, Silius Italicus, Statius, Ptolemy, Hermogones, Valerius Maximus, Arrian, Petronius, Dion Pruseus, Paterculus, Appian, Theon of Smyrna, Phlegon, Pompon Mela, Quintius Curtius, Lucian, Pausanias, Valerius Flaccus, Florus Lucius, Favorinus, Phaedrus, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Columella, Dio Chrysostom, Lysias, Appion of Alexandria.

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.

Philo of Alexandria was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ's miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem.

He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the dead took place -- when Christ himself rose from the dead, and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

From "The Christ" -- John E. Remsberg

BTW, there's also nothing about Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls -- and there should be.

 

[Tinker Grey]

BTW, there's also nothing about Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls -- and there should be.

I'm not sure why you say that. The caches seem to exist to preserve Jewish scriptures. None of the texts listed here mention the Romans either.

If someone were keeping a history and decided to hide it in those caves, then if Jesus existed we could expect him to be mentioned. But there doesn't seem to be any indication that those caches of documents were meant to preserve contemporaneous historical accounts.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Why do comments that show evidence against Christianity, religion, or the supernatural get removed from the Apologetics section? Didn't there used to be a debate forum where atheists and Christians could discuss? I heard the Christians kept losing so they removed that part of the forum.

I think you just answered your own question

 

[Tnmusicman]

You've yet to show that a body even existed.



Except they don't agree. They disagree on the number of people they found there, and they disagree on whether they were men or angels.



Ah, the old "so crazy it just must be true" argument.



Did any of these 500 witnesses leave accounts of this? I'll make it easy. Just show me a hundred of the accounts written by some of these 500 people who were there.



Who says they did? All we know is that we are TOLD they did. Just because that's the way the story went doesn't mean it is true. After all, James Cameron's Titanic paints Captain Smith as a bit of a jerk, but in real life he was quite a nice guy. How do you know the same thing isn't happening here?

The only apostle whose death is specifically described by non-Christian
sources is James. His execution by Herod Agrippa is recorded both in the
Bible (Acts 12:1,2) and in “Antiquites of the Jews,” a history written by
the Jewish historian Josephus. Josephus was a non-Christian who is
generally considered a very reliable historian. He wrote his histories in
the late first century AD. Given that Josephus confirms Acts 12:1,2, one
can safely assume that the account in Acts 12 of the arrest of Peter is
reliable as well.
What evidence is there that the apostles died for their faith? | Evidence for Christianity


Wasn't he told to?

He wasn't told TO-Jesus said that he would.

Likewise, I can say that in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Spock sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise from the Genesis Device. Would Spock have done that if the Genesis device was not absolutely deadly? That proves beyond any doubt that the Genesis device is dangerous.

It's still all fiction though.

It's not fiction. It's recorded history.

You mean Paul the Apostle?

Yes, before he was Paul he was the Christian persecuter,Saul.



Source please?

{39}Lüdemann, What Really Happened?, p. 80.



Scholars of what? I want the opinions of people who are both in the field AND do not have a bias.

Gerd Ludemann is an atheist and a New Testament scholer. Is that un-biased enough??

 

[Tiberius]

TN, sort out your quote tags, please. Use the [/quote] and the end of a quoted section and a

at the beginning of the next one.

 

[horrace99]

Why do comments that show evidence against Christianity, religion, or the supernatural get removed from the Apologetics section? Didn't there used to be a debate forum where atheists and Christians could discuss? I heard the Christians kept losing so they removed that part of the forum.

Hmmm I'm not sure maybe because the apologetics section is for Christians only.And there is NO NADA ZIP 0 evidence against Christianity or the supernatural so your lying.

and most atheists on here were Christians when they joined.

And why exactly do you want people to be atheists

 

[Dave Ellis]

Hmmm I'm not sure maybe because the apologetics section is for Christians only.And there is NO NADA ZIP 0 evidence against Christianity or the supernatural so your lying.

and most atheists on here were Christians when they joined.

And why exactly do you want people to be atheists

 

[horrace99]

The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:


Why do you atheists constantly hunger for contemporary evidence? 95% of the worlds historians agree that Jesus existed.

Name 20 of the best historians who have done all of they're research and have incredible credentials and well-known careers that say that contemporary evidence is needed.

Alexander the greats longest and most detailed biographies were written 400 years after he died

 

[Tiberius]

Why do you atheists constantly hunger for contemporary evidence? 95% of the worlds historians agree that Jesus existed.

Would you believe that a person existed if the earliest records of them came from several decades after the time they are said to have died? Especially when the claims being made are as extraordinary as those being made of Jesus?

I know I wouldn't.

Alexander the greats longest and most detailed biographies were written 400 years after he died

But we also have a whole truckload of stuff that was done during the time he lived.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:


Why do you atheists constantly hunger for contemporary evidence? 95% of the worlds historians agree that Jesus existed.

Name 20 of the best historians who have done all of they're research and have incredible credentials and well-known careers that say that contemporary evidence is needed.

Alexander the greats longest and most detailed biographies were written 400 years after he died

I think I already answered this elsewhere.

Alexander's history was not written by a group of rabid worshippers. That is why it is considered credible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And speaking of topics that I have posted elsewhere:

Kim Jong-Il former leader of North Korea once had a golf score of 38 under par with 5 holes in one. With seventeen eye witnesses:

Kim Jong-Il once carded 38-under par at Pyongyang Golf Course | Toronto Star

So, how reliable are eye witnesses?

 

[JGG]

Wow, I had no idea Kim Jong-Il was such an amazing golfer! I remember him telepathically coaching the North Korean football team from North Korea, during the World Cup.

 

[muichimotsu]

How did we derail into debating the historicity of Jesus in a discussion about purpose and such from a secular/atheist viewpoint as criticized by a Christian apologist? CF has had stranger things happen in threads

 

[madaz]

and most atheists on here were Christians when they joined.

How did that happen?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow, I had no idea Kim Jong-Il was such an amazing golfer! I remember him telepathically coaching the North Korean football team from North Korea, during the World Cup.

Really? He was a truly amazing man:

* Even before his birth, the future leader of North Korea was triggering miracles. Official biographers say his birth in a cabin on the slopes of Baekdu Mountain in February 1942 was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow. When he was born, a new star appeared in the night sky.
* The first time he picked up a golf club, in 1994, Kim reportedly shot a 38-under par round on North Korea's only golf course, including 11 holes-in-one. He then decided to retire from the sport for ever.
* Kim has the ability to alter the weather simply through the power of thought.
* The fledgling leader was a genius as an infant, with official North Korean biographies stating that he had learned to walk at just 3 weeks and was talking at 8 weeks.
* As a junior high school pupil in Pyongyang, he corrected and chastised his teachers for their incorrect interpretations of history.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Kim-Jong-il-and-his-Amazing-Achievements.html


Of course we don't want to talk about what happened if you did not worship him properly.

 

[JGG]

Really? He was a truly amazing man:



The Incredible Kim Jong-il and his Amazing Achievements - Telegraph


Of course we don't want to talk about what happened if you did not worship him properly.

I heard there was hell to pay.

 

[muichimotsu]

Hmmm I'm not sure maybe because the apologetics section is for Christians only.And there is NO NADA ZIP 0 evidence against Christianity or the supernatural so your lying.

Define evidence before you go shooting off your mouth

and most atheists on here were Christians when they joined.

And please support your assertions before jumping the gun

And why exactly do you want people to be atheists

And maybe just stop making assumptions about people without directly asking them