Atheists, What's the point?

[JGG]

I'm not actually trying to convince anyone to become an atheist. I'm mostly trying to get people to examine their beliefs, and understand that we don't all believe the same thing.

For instance, let's take prayer in public school. It's a hot topic agian, and it's something I've had to deal with recently. My child is not Christian. There are plenty of other children at his school who are not Christian. And yet, we have a long, on-going issue with a group of parents who demand that we allow, not just prayer in school, but specificaly Christian prayer. This is causing some major issues at our school, including violence. The problem seems to be that reasonable discussion cannot happen, because the woman that represents this group has faith that she is right, and the rest of us are wrong. She cannot articulate an argument that justifies her position to us, and we cannot communicate our position to her. We're deadlocked, and things just get worse.

In other words, my particular issue is not trying to get you to renounce belief in God, but to make it habit to justify your position on something other than faith. I also try to push for the words "I don't know." There's nothing wrong in admitting that you don't know something, but claiming to know something on faith, while not being able to justify it on faith, is problematic for people who don't share your faith.

That being said, I am rarely interested in trying to convince you not to believe, but more to explain why I don't believe. It is possible to justify faith, admit that you don't know everything, and still hold a reasonable position. It doesn't happen a lot, but it is possible.

 

[Hawisher]

Why, thank you.

I will wait to see the movie.

Neither do I.

Not me.

That is not my intent, and I do not think that is how I conduct myself.

I could only speak for myself, and that is not what I am looking to do.

This says nothing for the veracity of any religious claims.

Science is a method, a means of exploring, and providing useful predictions. Who says it should have the ability to comfort?

That is not my intent.

No. At best, there would be a ripple effect, and religion, and decisions based on religion, would be seen to have no place in government and education.

But I am not banking on that.

How is correcting people on their scientific and philosophical claims, in the context of this forum, a bad thing to do?

Do people that visit and post in this forum not do so of their own volition?

Since when is science and philosophy supposed to be "nice"?

Does God talk back to you? Do you hear voices? You can tell us.

People "grow out" of their religion all of the time.

What of the Clergy Project?

The Clergy Project - Home Page

Hundreds of religious leaders that "grew out" of their religious beliefs, and now, fortunately, find support in finding other avenues of employment.

Religion as a comfort blanket. If that it what you need it for, fine by me.

But, if you are going to prop up your religion using bad science as a crutch, and post that crutch here for all to see, what do you expect?

There are are other forums on this site, that you yourself have made use of, that are sheltered from (most) criticism.

Are you not happy posting there?

Erm... what bad science have I made use of? Moreover, people abandoning a faith doesn't necessarily mean they "grew out of" it. If I were to drop out of college, that doesn't mean I "grew out of it."

 

[motherprayer]

I'm not actually trying to convince anyone to become an atheist. I'm mostly trying to get people to examine their beliefs, and understand that we don't all believe the same thing.

For instance, let's take prayer in public school. It's a hot topic agian, and it's something I've had to deal with recently. My child is not Christian. There are plenty of other children at his school who are not Christian. And yet, we have a long, on-going issue with a group of parents who demand that we allow, not just prayer in school, but specificaly Christian prayer. This is causing some major issues at our school, including violence. The problem seems to be that reasonable discussion cannot happen, because the woman that represents this group has faith that she is right, and the rest of us are wrong. She cannot articulate an argument that justifies her position to us, and we cannot communicate our position to her. We're deadlocked, and things just get worse.

In other words, my particular issue is not trying to get you to renounce belief in God, but to make it habit to justify your position on something other than faith. I also try to push for the words "I don't know." There's nothing wrong in admitting that you don't know something, but claiming to know something on faith, while not being able to justify it on faith, is problematic for people who don't share your faith.

That being said, I am rarely interested in trying to convince you not to believe, but more to explain why I don't believe. It is possible to justify faith, admit that you don't know everything, and still hold a reasonable position. It doesn't happen a lot, but it is possible.

I have a question, though. What specifically is the issue with Christians praying in school? Provided, of course, that they don't force non-Christians to participate. There are several similar efforts happening where I live, but the push is always to allow those who are Christian to have the choice to pray, without forcing anyone else.

 

[JGG]

I have a question, though. What specifically is the issue with Christians praying in school? Provided, of course, that they don't force non-Christians to participate. There are several similar efforts happening where I live, but the push is always to allow those who are Christian to have the choice to pray, without forcing anyone else.

We're not concerned with Christian students praying, any more than Jewish students praying. We just don't want one single out any group of kids either as more important or less important. Why should the children say a Christian prayer over a Jewish one (nearly a quarter of the school is Jewish). One recommendation was putting forth a specific room at school for private prayer for students that wanted it. The parents involved want the school to lead the students in prayer each morning during the morning announcements.

Realistically, it's not going to go anywhere, but we can't explain to these parents why not, and they keep pushing, which causes more problems between students, parents and faculty.

 

[motherprayer]

We're not concerned with Christian students praying, any more than Jewish students praying. We just don't want one single out any group of kids either as more important or less important. Why should the children say a Christian prayer over a Jewish one (nearly a quarter of the school is Jewish). One recommendation was putting forth a specific room at school for private prayer for students that wanted it. The parents involved want the school to lead the students in prayer each morning during the morning announcements.

Realistically, it's not going to go anywhere, but we can't explain to these parents why not, and they keep pushing, which causes more problems between students, parents and faculty.

Yes, I can see how that could be a problem. The efforts in my area have been much more tolerant. There is a group of parents who are trying to advocate prayer in school, but they aren't looking for exclusivity. Their desire is to create a safe haven for students of any religious background to pray, in whatever way suits them, while at school.

No announcements, just a safe place to go, for Christians, Jewish, Muslims and others to feel they won't be cast down for their beliefs. I hope it goes through.

But what you are talking about is Christians doing what it seems they do best - making Christians look bad lol

 

[Hawisher]

We're not concerned with Christian students praying, any more than Jewish students praying. We just don't want one single out any group of kids either as more important or less important. Why should the children say a Christian prayer over a Jewish one (nearly a quarter of the school is Jewish). One recommendation was putting forth a specific room at school for private prayer for students that wanted it. The parents involved want the school to lead the students in prayer each morning during the morning announcements.

Realistically, it's not going to go anywhere, but we can't explain to these parents why not, and they keep pushing, which causes more problems between students, parents and faculty.

And I agree with that. But, as I've said before, and will say until the day I die, stupid will always find a way. Rational isn't incompatible with Christianity. Would you cut off a toe to cure a hangnail?

 

[essentialsaltes]

From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Believing the truth is its own benefit.

Believing a lie, even a well-meaning one, is error.

 

[Jade Margery]

The problems you cite are caused by stupid, not by religion. Come on. Stupid people will always find a way to be stupid. Speaking as a person who has been an atheist, it frankly isn't much fun.

Others have already said what I would have in response of the OP (mainly about not being out to convert anyone, trying to protect our own rights from those who consistently assault them, the dangers of religion vs. science and progress, and the common misconceptions about atheists that constantly need dispelling, etc.) but this comment of yours interests me.

I also have seen a lot of people, both here and on other sites, trying to deal with problems that their religious beliefs have created for them. People in unhappy or abusive relationships who won't leave because divorce is against their god's will. People who don't provide their children with life-saving treatment for diseases we have known how to cure for decades, or emergency care that includes blood transfusions. Folks who are consumed with guilt over their normal sexual needs and fantasies.

You are more critical of other people of faith than most of the atheists here. These people are no more stupid than you (or perhaps as stupid as you, which is to say, I am not calling you stupid but saying that you are behaving in a way you yourself have called stupid. So you're kind of calling yourself stupid. Stupid. )

Joking aside, they believe something that you don't just like you believe something that I don't. They have the very same blind faith that you defended in your first post, but are insulting in this one. And in a way, you are answering your own question. What's wrong with blind faith? What harm does it cause? What does one gain from comparing what they believe to what the evidence actually says? The answer is less stupidity (using your terms) and less of the problems that being foolish and gullible and convinced to act against your own interests for the sake of the whims of an imaginary person would provide.

Now, you say you used to be an atheist, and before that you were a christian, yes? (Correct me if I am wrong.) I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that there were some things you believed as a christian back then that you don't believe as a returned christian now. Is this the case? And if so, were you being stupid then?


Oh, and speaking as a person who is currently an atheist, I'm having a blast.

 

[Davian]

Erm... what bad science have I made use of?

Do you really want to examine your comfort blanket for holes?

Moreover, people abandoning a faith doesn't necessarily mean they "grew out of" it. If I were to drop out of college, that doesn't mean I "grew out of it."

Bad analogy... unless you were planning on being religious for only a set number of years. Education is not belief. Belief can continue in the event of things that can easily interfere with a college education, such as money, jobs, health, babies, etc.

 

[Hawisher]

Do you really want to examine your comfort blanket for holes?

That's not how I view my religion. It's not a comfort blanket for me. God isn't an imaginary friend. Go ahead.

Bad analogy... unless you were planning on being religious for only a set number of years. Education is not belief. Belief can continue in the event of things that can easily interfere with a college education, such as money, jobs, health, babies, etc.

What reason is there to suppose that abandoning one's faith is the same as "growing out of it"? The former is a neutral and precise term for what happens. The latter connotes childishness.

 

[Eudaimonist]

What reason is there to suppose that abandoning one's faith is the same as "growing out of it"?

For many atheists, that's how they experience their deconversion.

The latter connotes childishness.

It may simply suggest honesty. Haven't you grown out of anything? Do you recognize that in hindsight?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Hawisher]

For many atheists, that's how they experience their deconversion.
It may simply suggest honesty. Haven't you grown out of anything? Do you recognize that in hindsight?


eudaimonia,

Mark

When you abandon a belief, it almost by definition seems silly in hindsight. I could say I "grew out of" my atheism, for example.

 

[Davian]

That's not how I view my religion. It's not a comfort blanket for me.

It is how you portrayed it for many in your previous post.

God isn't an imaginary friend.

That is a claim that has yet to be substantiated.

Go ahead.

I suggest starting a thread on a specific subject, or joining one of the many threads already in progress.

What reason is there to suppose that abandoning one's faith is the same as "growing out of it"?

Listening to the many stories of those in the Clergy Project, for one.

The former is a neutral and precise term for what happens. The latter connotes childishness.

You are projecting. We grow our minds, our knowledge every day - or we should. Do you not like to read, to learn?

Will you be responding to this post?

 

[Eudaimonist]

When you abandon a belief, it almost by definition seems silly in hindsight.

Who said anything about a belief seeming silly in hindsight?

I could say I "grew out of" my atheism, for example.

You could. Perhaps you did.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

That's not how I view my religion. It's not a comfort blanket for me.

It was your main argument in your OP.

 

[quatona]

And I agree with that. But, as I've said before, and will say until the day I die, stupid will always find a way.

...and intelligent will always criticize and try to stop stupid´s ways.

 

[quatona]

When you abandon a belief, it almost by definition seems silly in hindsight.

A belief isn´t silly. People can be silly. People who used to believe something and e.g. upon further information or due to increasing experience change their beliefs or abandon them, haven´t been silly.

I could say I "grew out of" my atheism, for example.

I hope that you encountered it that way. Anything less would worry me.

 

[I Eat Pie]

Im an atheist and I do not advocate atheism, I havent seen any atheists here here at CF advocate atheism either. Correct me if Im wrong. I belong to three (real world) atheist groups and none of them advocate atheism. Im sure some atheists do, but I expect it would be a very small percentage.

Just wondering, what's an atheist group do? 0_o

 

[Eudaimonist]

Just wondering, what's an atheist group do? 0_o

That depends on the group.

The Fellowship of Reason, of which I am a member, has a Sunday School for kids, a fiction book club, a poetry group, pub meetings, and plenty of other activities.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[I Eat Pie]

Ooh that sounds fun. Is it exclusive though for just atheists or can anyone just come?