If God asks....

[Skavau]

I read all the posts with an increasing level of interest, so I decided to do a little hijacking! You were not getting the answer you sought anyway, so please do not hold the hijacking against me for too long.

First of all, this is all purely hypothetical, and we can all agree to that.

I find it difficult to accept your response. This hypo resolves anyone's doubt about the existence of Christianity's God. It is a fact that God exists, and it is a fact that He has decided to alter His plan of Grace. He is once again in the business of killing people. If you did not accept God once you acknowledged meeting Him, I would have to question more than your moral fabric.

Why would you question my moral fabric?

If in your hypothetical God is back in action and back killing people or ordering others to do it for him then why would refusing to accept him or his requests indicate a failure in my moral fabric? Would it not indicate in actuality, the reverse?

What do you imagine morality even is if it can include arbitrary license for murder?

If you had originally made your hypothetical to indicate that God asked us to kill someone rather than commanded it be done, I would agree with your response. I would likely reply (very kindly) that I would prefer not to...just like Bartleby.

Of course, I am not calling you a liar or even saying that you would not disobey God. There have been those who disobeyed God after having met Him personally, and I always have, still do, and likely always will wonder how they could have made that decision. If the Creator of All tells me to do something (keep in mind that I am still in hypothetical mode and I KNOW that He told me), it is a good bet that I am going to do it.

Were that to happen and I did killed on God's command then it would a moral failure of mine, and not God's. Some things are simply more important, too precious to sacrifice for self-gain. This would be one of them.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Why would you question my moral fabric?

Because you met and acknowledged the Creator of All and opted to disobey Him. I suppose I would not have to question it, because you would show yourself to be immoral through your actions.

If in your hypothetical God is back in action and back killing people or ordering others to do it for him then why would refusing to accept him or his requests indicate a failure in my moral fabric? Would it not indicate in actuality, the reverse?

In the hypo, you do not have the luxury you now possess. You cannot simply state that you do not accept or believe that God is the "Giver" of morality. In the hypo, morally right actions are those God commands, and immoral ones are the opposite.

What do you imagine morality even is if it can include arbitrary license for murder?

I will take a moment to say that you are talking to a Christian, and I am curious as to whether you wish this discussion to stay hypothetical or if you are taking us to a discussion of "real life."

Were that to happen and I did killed on God's command then it would a moral failure of mine, and not God's. Some things are simply more important, too precious to sacrifice for self-gain. This would be one of them.

This section seems as if it was written from your current perspective rather than coming from inside the hypo. If you were faced with absolute certainty that God exists, it is not out of the question that your understanding of importance would also under go drastic change.

 

[Skavau]

Because you met and acknowledged the Creator of All and opted to disobey Him. I suppose I would not have to question it, because you would show yourself to be immoral through your actions.

Why would disobeying the creator of all mean I would be necessarily immoral?

Would it not depend on precisely what he ordered me to do?

In the hypo, you do not have the luxury you now possess. You cannot simply state that you do not accept or believe that God is the "Giver" of morality. In the hypo, morally right actions are those God commands, and immoral ones are the opposite.

Your hypothetical is being set up to be unfalsifiable. The point would be that I would reject God's assertion that whatever he can do or does do is morally right. That you yourself seem to seriously believe that negates your entire understanding of morality to nothing more than a glorified master-slave relationship.

Murder means nothing to you. Theft means nothing to you. Torture means nothing to you. Humanity means nothing to you. If God told you to just murder you would do it in a heartbeat and you would do it with a tune on your heart whilst proudly congratulating yourself on just how moral you are.

Is that the impression you meant to give? Because you gave it.

I will take a moment to say that you are talking to a Christian, and I am curious as to whether you wish this discussion to stay hypothetical or if you are taking us to a discussion of "real life."

You're proposing a hypothetical in an attempt to justify the right of God to behave how he likes.

This section seems as if it was written from your current perspective rather than coming from inside the hypo. If you were faced with absolute certainty that God exists, it is not out of the question that your understanding of importance would also under go drastic change.

No it wouldn't. My hypothetical assumes that God does exist, and that's that. Your spin on the hypothetical asserts as a part of it that I would have to assume that God is always right no matter what. If you do in fact mean to ask how would I respond if I actually thought like that then I would of course, actually respond like that but this rather misses the point of it all. Hypotheticals are designed to ask someone how they would behave in a given situation based on their current values.

 

[Davian]

I read all the posts with an increasing level of interest, so I decided to do a little hijacking! You were not getting the answer you sought anyway, so please do not hold the hijacking against me for too long.

First of all, this is all purely hypothetical, and we can all agree to that.

I find it difficult to accept your response. This hypo resolves anyone's doubt about the existence of Christianity's God. It is a fact that God exists, and it is a fact <snip>

What a very gnostic thing to say.

No, these are not facts. That is, unless you again playing with definitions, and you feel that the word could be synonymous with 'fabrication' or 'guess'. Is that the case here?

 

[32k]

If God orders the killing of some group of people, is it wrong?

No

So if God asked you to kill anyone, you'd do it?

I don't know. I've been known to disobey God on a number of things..as we all have. This is perhaps because of the inner struggle we all have as to whether we believe that God is trustworthy to our benefit. That and whether or not we really believe it is "God" speaking to us when so many other possibilities abound.

 

[Paradoxum]

I refute your argument by pointing out that it is based upon a category mistake. You place God in the category of a man and then say that God, if He takes a life, commits murder.

I don't don't consider God to be a human, so I made no mistake. I believe morality is objective and separate from opinion, even the opinion of God. God must be moral just as humans must, and it works the same way. His power, nor His creative abilities, exempt him from the moral principles.

You are also basing your fallacious comparison on a misconstrual of the word "author". God is the author of life meaning He is the locus and source of all life. Men and women are not the locus or source of life of the child that is conceived between them. For life is already existent within them via the sperm of the man and the egg of the woman. Life is already there. The man and woman do not "create" life in the sense that God creates life. Therefore you are equivocating on the term "author". Men and women are not the author of life of a child in the same sense that God is said to be the Author of all life.

To say God is the 'locus of life' is just meaningless word games. There is no essence which is called life. Life is a label, a category, we give to certain types of things. To say God is the locus of Life is little different from saying He is the locus of 'Mineral'. Living things have a certain physical description, and are formed from non-living matter. There is no magical spirit needed to animate a living being. You may believe humans have souls, but it would be ludicrous to say a bacteria (which is alive), is anything more than the biochemistry that makes it up.

Sperm and egg are alive, depending on what you mean by life. If they are then people should stop saying that life begins at conception. But if they are alive, they are still created by humans. The air you breathe and food you eat create the sperm and egg.

God plays not more part in the creation of life than a parent does. Life is a physical system, which (if it isn't yet) will soon be created from non-life in a lab.

You will have to plead your case to the contemporary evolutionary ethicists who would disagree with what you are saying.

I also know about Kantian moral theory.

I have no problem disagreeing with them.

But I would ask you to state clearly your view of the foundation and nature of morality. Thus far you haven't. Are you saying that morality is an abstract concept like mathematics?

Not quite like mathematics, but more like maths than preferring vanilla to chocolate.

Trying to explain it all fully could be rather long winded, but I can try to explain it simply.

Morality is the objectification of the subjective. It comes through the recognition that the will and feelings of others are equal to ones own. If I don't want something to happen to me, then I consider it bad for me. I can then objectively apply this to everyone, to give the objective bad.

It is more complicated than that, but I've had a little (only a little) to drink.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Your hypothetical is being set up to be unfalsifiable. The point would be that I would reject God's assertion that whatever he can do or does do is morally right. That you yourself seem to seriously believe that negates your entire understanding of morality to nothing more than a glorified master-slave relationship.

It is not my hypothetical, and I want to apologize for one thing before we continue. I assumed, and I should not have, that the hypothetical you presented settled the issue that the Christian God existed. Along with that assumption, I carried over certain principles that I personally attribute to God, but I did so only those principles that I figured to be largely accepted by the Christian community. For one, that God is the Creator of everything, and since He did create everything, He created morality. He created Good.

If that was not your intention with the hypothetical, I apologize for the mistake. I probably should not have butted in.

If you want me to respond to the rest of your post and if you do not mind, can we go over the hypothetical in a little more detail?

 

[Max S Cherry]

What a very gnostic thing to say.

Are you familiar with how a hypothetical works?

No, these are not facts. That is, unless you again playing with definitions, and you feel that the word could be synonymous with 'fabrication' or 'guess'.

I do not play with definitions. A fact is "proven." Facts within a hypothetical are considered to be "proven." Do I need to tell you what "proven" means, and what about "hypothetical?"

Is that the case here?

The case here is that we are dealing with a hypothetical. None of it is necessarily true, but it is all treated as true. It is what we call pretending. Do you think we can agree on that word, or do we need to specify the definition?

 

[Davian]

Are you familiar with how a hypothetical works?



I do not play with definitions. A fact is "proven." Facts within a hypothetical are considered to be "proven." Do I need to tell you what "proven" means, and what about "hypothetical?"



The case here is that we are dealing with a hypothetical. None of it is necessarily true, but it is all treated as true. It is what we call pretending. Do you think we can agree on that word, or do we need to specify the definition?

It appeared to me that you stated these 'facts' outside of the hypothetical at hand. I apologize if that was misconstrued.

I will take issue with your claim that "fact" is synonymous with "proven". You can specify where you got that from.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

If God orders the killing of some group of people, is it wrong?

For God? No, he created life and I suppose he in a way takes lives away every single day. In my opinion, God can't do right or wrong.
Who would hold him accountable for his actions? Who's to say what's the right thing for a deity to do?

However, for humans, this would be terrible. I would have to think it to be a test from God. He clearly says don't kill in the Ten Commandments, then commands you personally, to kill people. Isn't that kinda like the whole, "tree of knowledge, Adam and Eve" sorta thing?

Personally, I couldn't really kill anyone because I oppose killing for almost any reason unless they pose a real threat to my life or my family's. Any voice that tells me to do otherwise would be noted to a mental health professional.

I don't understand killing in the name of God, but then again, I don't understand killing of any kind.

 

[dlamberth]

If God orders the killing of some group of people, is it wrong?

Yes! God would not do that.

.

 

[dlamberth]

God has already spoken. He will not speak otherwise. I love God because I have experienced his love for me. This fills me up and inspires me to love others.

If you have experienced His love for you, than you have also experienced His Love for others as well. In the same way that Love does not Kill, God does not tell us to kill either.

.

 

[dlamberth]

The only difference between homosapiens and fish is that they are a different species.

Except that Human Beings have the awareness of Love and Compassion.

 

[Frenchfrye]

Yes! God would not do that.

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remember God destroyed sodom for being so deep in sin
and God had israelites go to battle with other nations in the OT
and the flood God killed virtually everyone
God loves everybody but God knows that a group of people were so sinful they are only hurting other peoples faith God has had them destroyed. God had the prophets of bal killed by elijah

 

[dlamberth]

remember God destroyed sodom for being so deep in sin
and God had israelites go to battle with other nations in the OT
and the flood God killed virtually everyone
God loves everybody but God knows that a group of people were so sinful they are only hurting other peoples faith God has had them destroyed. God had the prophets of bal killed by elijah

Those are ancient middle-eastern stories from a time where cultures worshipped God's of war.

.

 

[Frenchfrye]

Those are ancient middle-eastern stories from a time where cultures worshipped God's of war.

.

it was biblical and has been scientifically proven denying those is denying the bible so then that means that we dont know what God beleives or if he would even be real.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

it was biblical and has been scientifically proven denying those is denying the bible so then that means that we dont know what God beleives or if he would even be real.

Actually, none of those things have been scientifically proven.

 

[mandelduke]

How do you verify if it's God and not a mental illness? If I heard an audible voice saying "kill so and so" I don't think I would attribute it to God. I'm not sure exactly how the people in the Old Testament got their supposed direct message to do it but I would be really skeptical.

If God ask me to kill someone I would kill them in a New York second. And if God had not told me not to kill the person that killed my 18 year old daughter, I was going to kill him very slowly.

 

[Illuminaughty]

If God ask me to kill someone I would kill them in a New York second

How would God go about doing that? Would it be an audible voice?

 

[dlamberth]

it was biblical and has been scientifically proven denying those is denying the bible so then that means that we dont know what God beleives or if he would even be real.

God resides with in a persons Heart. That's where He becomes real and a reality.

.