When Will Christ Return?

[zeke37]

I would be careful about using things outside of Scripture to interpret Scripture.

I think the rider on the white horse is in fact the Antichrist. Notice he wears "a crown" while Christ wears "many crowns."

I think that white here is an obvious impersonation of Christ, as "anti" can mean both against and instead of.

In addition, the color white is also associated with Satan several times: In 2 Cor. 11 Paul says Satan comes as an angel of light - and in Rev. 13 the false prophet looks like a lamb (which would be white or black I guess depending).

all valid observations/conclusions
I would add that in Rev6:2, the greek toxon is used for BOW,

it is not a weapon but rather a covering/glory....like a rainbow kind of bow

Christ has a Glorious RAINBOW TYPE COVERING that is described for us in Rev
Satan has an appearance or covering too,
but it is fake/simple/knock off in comparison to the Real Deal

toxon is what we would call a cheap bolt of fabric today.

toxon means a cheap fabric imitation...a counterfeit/knock off

 

[Achilles6129]

So...when will the promised return come? And what did Christ mean when he said that the Son of Man comes at an hour "that ye think not?" Anyone have any more ideas?

There is one thing I would like to note. Christ compares his return to the days of Sodom and also the days of the Deluge. Although Christ does not expressly state it, he is clearly inviting a comparison to the wickedness of those days to the wickedness of the last days:

"26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." Lu. 17:26-30

So the comparison here is obvious.

 

[eclipsenow]

So...when will the promised return come? And what did Christ mean when he said that the Son of Man comes at an hour "that ye think not?" Anyone have any more ideas?

There is one thing I would like to note. Christ compares his return to the days of Sodom and also the days of the Deluge. Although Christ does not expressly state it, he is clearly inviting a comparison to the wickedness of those days to the wickedness of the last days:

"26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." Lu. 17:26-30

So the comparison here is obvious.

Really? It's that obvious hey? So, back when Rome was murdering Christians and indulging all sorts of perversions and had just burnt Jerusalem and God's temple to the ground, the Lord should have returned then right? Or what about the fall of the Roman Empire, and all that barbarism then? Or what about the rape and pillaging of the Crusades?
Or what about the horrors of Colonialism and slavery and the European Empires spanning across the globe to rape and pillage and enslave?

Or what about the First World war? Or what about Hitler and the Nazi's and the things they did to Christians and Jews and the abominable private practices they kept?

Or what about the atrocities in the Middle East right now, or the persecution of Christians in Africa?

However you measure it, we've ALWAYS been living in wicked times. In other words, on this measure the Lord could have returned at any time since he ascended. The way the early disciples wrote, I'm sure they expected the Lord to return in their lifetimes.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Really? It's that obvious hey? So, back when Rome was murdering Christians and indulging all sorts of perversions and had just burnt Jerusalem and God's temple to the ground, the Lord should have returned then right? Or what about the fall of the Roman Empire, and all that barbarism then? Or what about the rape and pillaging of the Crusades?
Or what about the horrors of Colonialism and slavery and the European Empires spanning across the globe to rape and pillage and enslave?

Or what about the First World war? Or what about Hitler and the Nazi's and the things they did to Christians and Jews and the abominable private practices they kept?

Or what about the atrocities in the Middle East right now, or the persecution of Christians in Africa?

However you measure it, we've ALWAYS been living in wicked times. In other words, on this measure the Lord could have returned at any time since he ascended. The way the early disciples wrote, I'm sure they expected the Lord to return in their lifetimes.

Well, the difference between those times and now are obvious.

There was no mass communication then. No common monetary denomination which was traded globally. MOF, the world to MOST people prior to the 20th century consisted of an area not much bigger than the city or town they grew up in, and for worldly people, perhaps the country, or even the continent.

PPL did not go to and fro on a whim. They did not boast their sins. Perhaps ppl in power during those evil times you mention did, but for the paupers, sin was still sin.
Today, sin is delighted in.

I understand that satans influence in our culture has been seen since the fall, however, during no time in history was sin on such a broad scale, so very rampant and accepted as good.

 

[Achilles6129]

Really? It's that obvious hey? So, back when Rome was murdering Christians and indulging all sorts of perversions and had just burnt Jerusalem and God's temple to the ground, the Lord should have returned then right? Or what about the fall of the Roman Empire, and all that barbarism then? Or what about the rape and pillaging of the Crusades?
Or what about the horrors of Colonialism and slavery and the European Empires spanning across the globe to rape and pillage and enslave?

Or what about the First World war? Or what about Hitler and the Nazi's and the things they did to Christians and Jews and the abominable private practices they kept?

Or what about the atrocities in the Middle East right now, or the persecution of Christians in Africa?

However you measure it, we've ALWAYS been living in wicked times. In other words, on this measure the Lord could have returned at any time since he ascended. The way the early disciples wrote, I'm sure they expected the Lord to return in their lifetimes.

These things have always been going on everywhere. The point is universal wickedness. I guess that is the point I was making - should have stated it more clearly.

In other words, Christ compares his return to a time when there was only 1 righteous person and everybody else was evil. So we have Noah and we have Lot. This invites the comparison that God will wait till a time of universal wickedness for this return Christ is talking about in Luke 17.

There is also another good example. Christ says his disciples are the "salt" of the earth. Salt is a preservitave. In other words, Christ is saying that his disciples are preserving the planet from destruction. Thus when none (or very few) of his disciples are left, the planet will be destroyed.

So, in essence, Christ is comparing his return to the times of Sodom/the Deluge because these were each times when there was only one individual who obeyed God's commands. The comparison I believe he is inviting is that when the return happens there will be very, very few individuals on the planet who obey God's commands.

 

[interpreter]

all valid observations/conclusions
I would add that in Rev6:2, the greek toxon is used for BOW,

it is not a weapon but rather a covering/glory....like a rainbow kind of bow

Christ has a Glorious RAINBOW TYPE COVERING that is described for us in Rev
Satan has an appearance or covering too,
but it is fake/simple/knock off in comparison to the Real Deal

toxon is what we would call a cheap bolt of fabric today.

toxon means a cheap fabric imitation...a counterfeit/knock off

The first horseman is St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. He appeared on the scene when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus told him "By this, conquer."

 

[eclipsenow]

Well, the difference between those times and now are obvious.

There was no mass communication then. No common monetary denomination which was traded globally. MOF, the world to MOST people prior to the 20th century consisted of an area not much bigger than the city or town they grew up in, and for worldly people, perhaps the country, or even the continent.

PPL did not go to and fro on a whim. They did not boast their sins. Perhaps ppl in power during those evil times you mention did, but for the paupers, sin was still sin.
Today, sin is delighted in.

I understand that satans influence in our culture has been seen since the fall, however, during no time in history was sin on such a broad scale, so very rampant and accepted as good.

Rome was considered a global power with global money systems, after all, Rome was what John was actually writing about in Revelation. Roman emperors didn't need a global media system to boast of their sins: they built massive statues to celebrate their infamy and had relief's carved all over the place. (Like the sacking of Rome that I contributed somewhere above, celebrated on Titus's victory arch).

the paupers, sin was still sin.

Oh really? Evidence please?

Once again I'm detecting the self-obsessed nature of futurist eschatology leaking into the views in this post. Things have always been sinful and always will be right up until the Last Day. But that's the whole point, isn't it? Really, there's nothing especially 'sinful' about today. Sure we're living in a post-Christian culture. But previous cultures have had reformations and counter-reformations and all manner of different cultural expressions of their sin.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Rome was considered a global power with global money systems, after all, Rome was what John was actually writing about in Revelation. Roman emperors didn't need a global media system to boast of their sins: they built massive statues to celebrate their infamy and had relief's carved all over the place. (Like the sacking of Rome that I contributed somewhere above, celebrated on Titus's victory arch).

Oh really? Evidence please?

Once again I'm detecting the self-obsessed nature of futurist eschatology leaking into the views in this post. Things have always been sinful and always will be right up until the Last Day. But that's the whole point, isn't it? Really, there's nothing especially 'sinful' about today. Sure we're living in a post-Christian culture. But previous cultures have had reformations and counter-reformations and all manner of different cultural expressions of their sin.

If you believe brother John was speaking of his day when he authored Revelation, then I detect the self-obsessed nature of preterist eschatology ; leaking into your post.

And if you need evidence of the debauchery in today's society as being far greater than it was in yesterday's, and the day's before.....well, I'd ask that you take your head out of the sand and look around.
While I wholly agree with the fact that we should spend more time doing God's work than we do obsessing with things future, live in the present sotosay, I dare think those who believe in the preterist position should NOT be posting in this subforum......that is unless you want to voice your enlightened position about why much of Revelation, and Bible prophecy in whole is yet unfulfilled.

 

[eclipsenow]

If you believe brother John was speaking of his day when he authored Revelation, then I detect the self-obsessed nature of preterist eschatology ; leaking into your post.

Sorry, that would be bible-obsessed and Rome obsessed. Futurists are really 'today-ists' because it's always all about now, and how special we are, and how important our particular insight into prophecy fulfilment is, and how super-fantastically wonderful it is that I spotted the anti-Christ through MY particular end-times-table. Aren't I smart? Aren't I wonderful? So, the anti-Christ is... (drum roll)....

[Meanwhile I fall asleep at the merest suggestion of having to sit through the 999th 'theory' about how Revelation should be read 'now'. Are you serious? Oh, if you turn 999 upside down it might tell you something about the next theory... or is that the mark on the bankcard?]

And if you need evidence of the debauchery in today's society as being far greater than it was in yesterday's, and the day's before.....well, I'd ask that you take your head out of the sand and look around.

Wow, what an evidence based post. If I just pull my head out of the sand I'd see a world full of sin. Well, thanks. That's really illuminating.

Would this be a good description of today?

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Paul tells Timothy to avoid such people. But how can he avoid them if they are stuck all the way up here, 2000 years later, in these 'Last Days'? Well, the truth is Timothy was in the Last Days. It's been the Last Days since Jesus rose from the dead. (See Acts 2).

While I wholly agree with the fact that we should spend more time doing God's work than we do obsessing with things future, live in the present sotosay, I dare think those who believe in the preterist position should NOT be posting in this subforum......that is unless you want to voice your enlightened position about why much of Revelation, and Bible prophecy in whole is yet unfulfilled.

You're reading it wrong, that's why. It IS fulfilled. Everything that is necessary has been done. The Lord could return in 5 seconds or another 50,000 years, we just don't know! Here's my usual intro to Revelation.

Regards to you mate.

****

Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to HIS generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would apply to all generations.

1. THE LANGUAGE IS URGENT AND NEAR!

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

SOON!

Revelation 1:3
"3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

NEAR!

John expected the stuff in Revelation to begin during his lifetime! The persecution, the suffering, the tribulations, the safety of martyrs in heaven, the spiritual reign of Christ, it all started 2000 years ago.

2. JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE *ALREADY* SHARES IN THEIR *TRIBULATION*

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

John shares their tribulation which had *already* started! It started 2000 years ago, and continues to this day. We see it in history and around the world *any* time a 'beast' government starts to kill God's people.

The Roman persecution against Christians would have been especially troubling to Jewish Christians who expected the Messiah to save Israel from her enemies. What was the point of belonging to this 'new' Israel of the church if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple? John answers these questions. Revelation is primarily a theological sermon that covered where the true temple now lives, true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared.

It was written TO them and was ABOUT their trials and temptations. But it also applies generally to all Christians in all ages as we all suffer for our Lord. Just as 1 Corinthians was written specifically to the Corinthian church but is also God's word to all generations, so Revelation was written to specific Christians but the themes and message are timeless. (Well, for all Christians living in these Last Days which started in Acts 2!)

3. IT'S A GOSPEL SERMON THAT APPLIES TO ALL AGES, EVEN IF WRITTEN IN APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE!

Revelation 1:2
"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The testimony of Jesus Christ is another way of speaking of the basic gospel message of the Apostles.

We know it is apocalyptic (a genre of writing common to Jews between 200BC to 200AD) because of the biblical symbols used in the book. In Revelation 1 Jesus is introduced in a similar style to the Son of Man before the Ancient of Days in Daniel. But then there's a New Testament twist. John mixes and matches his imagery to suit the theology of his sermon. "...and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword." The Sword is the Sword of the Spirit, the word of God. Jesus, the WORD, is about to speak to John!

John has specifically said this book is about the testimony of Jesus Christ and now adds a biblical symbol of the power of that testimony. The Sword of the Spirit is about to speak, so pay attention! Listen up! The Lord is speaking, and (as John has already said) it is a testimony about himself. That's the gospel. Hear and obey! "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Which is kind of hard to do if it is not even directed TO you or ABOUT you. But because this was the gospel being preached, it *IS* to us and about us, and all Christians until the Lord returns.

THE SCROLL IN REVELATION 5 IS ABOUT THE GOSPEL AS WELL!
John weeps that no one can open Daniel's scroll, as it contains the answer to the great mystery of how God was going to redeem his people. But Jesus can open it. Why? Because he "has overcome". And...

"“ Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Jesus is the POINT of the whole bible, the subject of the scroll, and the answer to Daniel's question. Jesus is the one who saves people from every nation and creates a brand new kingdom and priests. The GOSPEL is the mystery from ages past now revealed to the Apostles. The scroll of Revelation 5 is not another question to solve but an answer to Daniel's conundrum! It's the gospel.


4. THE GOSPEL ITSELF HAS US THINKING OF THE LORD'S RETURN IN SALVATION AND JUDGEMENT
Critics of Amillennialism often argue that because the last few chapters describe Judgement Day the whole book must be a timetable. The problem is, the description of Judgement Day itself isn't a timetable! Judgement Day is described and repeated 3 times in various chapters at the end of the book. Rather than seeing Revelation as our own personal crystal ball and trying to guess specifically who and what each symbol 'is', we are meant to remember the *theological* importance of each image. And, surprise surprise, here we see the Lord's return is integral to the gospel sermon John is preaching in the first place!

Rev 1:5
"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen."

In verse 5 Jesus freed us from our sins. But thoughts of Jesus suffering lead John straight to His glorious return.

He is coming back the way he went, on the clouds. This is the ancient symbol of the Cloud Rider; a victorious and mighty ruler like the Ancient of Days. The return of the Cloud Rider is the Return of the King. It means Judgement Day.

According to John, the moment we remember Jesus died for our blood should also be the moment we remember his comforting words that although he suffered (and us with him!), he WILL return. Like any good introduction, John is letting us know what this book will be all about. We see generic picture language that explains the gospel hope of Jesus return to suffering Christians. We will NOT give in to persecution and temptation. We will NOT betray God and live for worldly wealth, worldly philosophy, and worldly powers. Because, in the end, the Lord *will* Judges them all. This is our gospel hope. It's not some weak future timetable that robs the book of relevance and meaning to us.

5. THERE IS NO WAY TO INSERT 2000 YEARS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE TEXT!
Revelation 4 is often quoted to support a big leap of time into the future.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven... Immediately I was in the Spirit".
Let us note that it does NOT say "Insert 2000 years here please, and then we'll move on to our timeline of future history!" That will not do. It contradicts John's command for *his* readers to hear and understand and obey the *gospel* message he is preaching, and it robs the verses above of their true meaning.

But John *does* give us a timeframe for his book. It is going to cover the Last Days. In Rev 1 he has already said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which means he is thinking of the Age of the Spirit which finds its fulfilment on the great and terrible day of the Lord. Here it is again in Rev 4. "Immediately I was in the Spirit". "After these things" is moving on from the specifics of the letters to the 7 churches to general truths across the whole Last Days. A careful study of Acts 2 and Joel will also back this up. We are in the Last Days, and have been for 2000 years. Most of the images in Revelation are theological statements about suffering in the Last Days, not 'events' that must be decoded.

6. THE FACT OF JUDGEMENT DAY IN THE LAST CHAPTERS *STILL* DOES NOT MAKE THIS A TIMETABLE!
Some argue that Judgement Day is an event, therefore the whole book is a series of events, not symbolic sermons. But there's a problem. Judgement Day is described about 3 times in vivid imagery from different angles. Revelation 17, 19, and 20 all describe different aspects of the same Judgement of our Lord! This makes it even *harder* to see Revelation as a future timeline when it seems to waltz around the same things again and again! No, it's symbolically describing important theological truths about Judgement Day. Not arbitrary timetables.

John started off telling us in Chapter 1 that he was writing about the gospel, and the gospel leads to Judgement. We should not be surprised that the book deals with the harsh realities of our lives now, but culminates in our glorious hope! How many stories have you heard describe heartache and pain that is ultimately resolved and rewarded? John is the ultimate storyteller, only the story he's telling is the gospel itself.

7. A FUTURE TIMETABLE MAKES IT COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE TO JOHN'S GENERATION.

* Covenant Amils see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

* Covenant Amils use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* Futurists use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing futurists have said addresses the fundamental point that their literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

...

 

[Douggg]

The first horseman is St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. He appeared on the scene when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus told him "By this, conquer."

Hi inter, how do you get Constantine from this verse?
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Achilles6129]

Would this be a good description of today?

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Paul tells Timothy to avoid such people. But how can he avoid them if they are stuck all the way up here, 2000 years later, in these 'Last Days'? Well, the truth is Timothy was in the Last Days. It's been the Last Days since Jesus rose from the dead. (See Acts 2).

Very simple, really. Paul could not have been talking about his days because he was telling Timothy about a time in the future. The "last days" in Scripture can describe the days since Christ's resurrection, it is true, but the "last days" can also describe the literal last days, as in 2 Peter 3, etc.:

"3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come(D) in the last days with scoffing,(E) following their own sinful desires. 4(F) They will say, "Where is the promise of(G) his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 2 Pet. 3:3 (ESV)

Paul's list of characteristics in 2 Tim. 3 does not necessarily mean those sorts of people are not around during Paul's times. Paul is just telling us what the last days will be like. So Paul gives the added injunction to Timothy to avoid such people. That does not mean that Paul is referring to Timothy's days as the "last times" - merely that he should avoid those sorts of individuals (who are around then).

I think Paul's point is the same point I made above with Christ's comparison of the last days with Sodom/Deluge - a universal amount of disobedience.

 

[interpreter]

Hi inter, how do you get Constantine from this verse?
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Constantine brought Jesus power and great glory, and he conquered Rome on the day the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Paul tells Timothy to avoid such people.

I didn't quote your whole post although it was very well spoken. However, I wholly disagree that the words Paul scribed were meant for Timothy moreso than for you and for me.
Had those times been the "Last Days", we would be living in heaven TODAY. MOF, Christ would have returned already and sin would cease to exist, as would we, the offenders.

Avoid such people, but witness your faith to them and show them the compassion and love that Christ Jesus shows us.

As we who believe the end of this order is nigh, well, we are not being selfish, in a manner that we think we are special. In fact, i am fairly certain that most of us would love to see how are children and grandchildren turn out. How we did as parents. I dare think that some of us may be subconsciously begging for the greatest period of tribulation that mankind has ever, ever ever ever, come through.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Very simple, really. Paul could not have been talking about his days because he was telling Timothy about a time in the future. The "last days" in Scripture can describe the days since Christ's resurrection, it is true, but the "last days" can also describe the literal last days, as in 2 Peter 3, etc.:

"3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come(D) in the last days with scoffing,(E) following their own sinful desires. 4(F) They will say, "Where is the promise of(G) his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 2 Pet. 3:3 (ESV)

Paul's list of characteristics in 2 Tim. 3 does not necessarily mean those sorts of people are not around during Paul's times. Paul is just telling us what the last days will be like. So Paul gives the added injunction to Timothy to avoid such people. That does not mean that Paul is referring to Timothy's days as the "last times" - merely that he should avoid those sorts of individuals (who are around then).

I think Paul's point is the same point I made above with Christ's comparison of the last days with Sodom/Deluge - a universal amount of disobedience.

AWESOME

God Bless you always brother.

 

[eclipsenow]

I didn't quote your whole post although it was very well spoken. However, I wholly disagree that the words Paul scribed were meant for Timothy moreso than for you and for me.
Had those times been the "Last Days", we would be living in heaven TODAY. MOF, Christ would have returned already and sin would cease to exist, as would we, the offenders.

Avoid such people, but witness your faith to them and show them the compassion and love that Christ Jesus shows us.

As we who believe the end of this order is nigh, well, we are not being selfish, in a manner that we think we are special. In fact, i am fairly certain that most of us would love to see how are children and grandchildren turn out. How we did as parents. I dare think that some of us may be subconsciously begging for the greatest period of tribulation that mankind has ever, ever ever ever, come through.

You're not going to convince me of anything unless you reply to the points I make with substantial counter-arguments involving point-by-point refutation and facts. Paul DID say Timothy was in the Last Days because they began in Acts 2, remember?

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

• According to Peter the "Last Days" started when Jesus died and rose again and ascended into heaven. The gospel instigates the "Last Days".
• Paul told Timothy to avoid such people. Why? Surely it would have been impossible to meet such people in the first century if they only lived 2000 years later?

Sorry dude, but the Last Days are a little bit longer than your or my petty concerns. This is God's timetable, not ours. Who knows how long they could go on?

 

[eclipsenow]

Very simple, really. Paul could not have been talking about his days because he was telling Timothy about a time in the future. The "last days" in Scripture can describe the days since Christ's resurrection, it is true, but the "last days" can also describe the literal last days, as in 2 Peter 3, etc.:

You're playing silly semantic games. The Last Days started when Jesus rose from the dead, fulfilling the prophecies of Joel. See Acts 2. Paul warns Timothy not to be duped by people Timothy lived amongst, not people who lived 2000 years later. In exactly the same way, Peter warns the church not to be duped by scoffers. This is, after all, the same Peter who earlier explained that the Last Days began in Acts 2. They began when Jesus fulfilled all eschatological promises of the Old Testament for salvation (faith in him), for a new people of God (in him), for a people with hearts of flesh and spiritual fire (in him), for a new super-temple (in him), for judgement on God's enemies (poured out on Jesus first, then all those who don't accept God's forgiveness in eschatological tension until the FINAL DAY), and even for a new creation (in his body). EVERY PROMISE is fulfilled in 'now and not yet' tension.

Once you get how the gospel of Jesus fulfils EVERY promise in the Old Testament, in eschatological tension, you can see why we MUST be living in the Last Days, and how it falls so easily from the Apostle's lips. For nothing remains to be done. It could be in a time of peace or war, but I lean towards peace. It could be tonight, or in 20,000 years. We just don't know. And ANY attempt of yours to prove otherwise by your 'special reading' of Revelation, or whatever, just makes you dependent on the whims of today's news headlines and media. I'm so unspeakably BORED of all such interpretations. No, I'm embarrassed by them.

They shame the gospel and turn people off Christianity. What 'End Times timetable' number is yours? Is it the 999,999,999th?

 

[zeke37]

2Thes2:1-4

 

[Mr.Waffles]

That's the exact reason I think it won't be until the 2030s. I just don't see a global government getting set up this decade.
[/I]

Might I point out that global governance sits on the cusp of being an immediate reality. There is a very big chance that it can happen during this present decade, at most the next. Even at that, that's not to say we can really know when Christ will return in relation to these events. I would say that the pretext them Zionists have calculated for their "system" will almost assuredly be produced this current decade.

Watch the US of A

 

[Achilles6129]

You're playing silly semantic games. The Last Days started when Jesus rose from the dead, fulfilling the prophecies of Joel.

Not at all. Paul uses the future tense to describe the last days, as does Peter. The last days can refer to either the days since Christ's resurrection, or the literal last days. It's either or. And those sorts of people have been around forever - they're just more abundant in the last days. See my above post