"Does God exist?" Only someone, already in God, can know!

[Gottservant]

And God cannot be self-deceived.

I would further add ("God cannot be self-deceived") "and not be dead"

 

[Gottservant]

Because God is love, and love shines on those worthy of it.

God deceives only those who ask for it,... like materialists.

Madaz, take note.

Here is someone who believes in a completely different Name for God ("Krishna") and just being devoted to not being deceived by Him alone, adding the words "God is love" spontaneously this lady has said more than the Bible ever meant to say, to the Glory of God.

Yet you, Madaz, with your paranoid atheism and cultic family obsession, have not ceased to criticize, who you think is asking you to love him alone, because God explains that the fear of God which puts you in Him is the self-same thing that creates the knowledge of Him. I will address your words, specifically in a moment.

God grant you the Wisdom to call something IMPORTANT.

 

[Gottservant]

Please clarify what you mean by your words?

Just like I am refering to "your" words.

I dont hate you mate, [...]

[but]

Unless you havent realised it yet I'm an Atheist, so therefore logically impossible for me to serve a deity?

No, its just logically impossible for you to believe God is anything less than an Atheist too. Slight difference.

On the one hand there is the title you give yourself ("Atheist") and on the other hand, there is the title you think God doesn't want ("Atheist") which you think means you "can't serve" "God" because otherwise he will take you being "Atheist" from you, even though being God He definitely realizes that if He wants to be called Atheist, you (to some extent) will too.

You might think I am saying forfeit everything to God, I don't know (but I am not saying there is no work involved, or that you should go bankrupt, or that your family will forget you, or something).

Thinking about gods and goddesses is a waste of time, I'm in a relationship with my wife, my kids, my family and my friends, they are all very real and far more meaningful.

You have time to waste.

 

[steve_bakr]

I don't think you get it. If you believe there is a God by faith, you can never prove there is a God, you can only prove you are in God long enough for them to have faith also (by being in God).

You miss the whole point, because you think you know what being in God is, but have never actually tried.

I'm not trying to accuse you, I'm trying to say "I understand your accusation" its just that what you said to me was so faithless that it has come back sounding like I am trying to argue you with (you).

That's not anyone's fault but the Devil's, I can't help that (yes, you can be in God, for nothing, that is always a possibility)

How many people do you think can be in God? If everyone was in God, do you think anyone would know if it was actually true?

According to Karl Rahner, everyone is in relationship to God because God is the reason for our being.

Who is God? Pure Infinite Being. How do we know there is a God? Because we exist. How do you experience God? Our daily conscious awareness is a reaching out for God, according to Rahner, and a finite taste of God's infinite being.

We participate in God in our daily awareness, even when we are not conscious of it.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because God is love, and love shines on those worthy of it.

God deceives only those who ask for it,... like materialists.

You aren't getting the point... How do you know that God is love? How do you know that's not just part of the scam?

 

[WonderBeat]

You aren't getting the point... How do you know that God is love? How do you know that's not just part of the scam?

I only see one scam and that is the one you are trying to pull.

Good luck.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, its just logically impossible for you to believe God is anything less than an Atheist too. Slight difference.

What on earth are you talking about?

If God actually exists, it's literally impossible for him to be an Atheist.

It's lines like this that cause people to criticise you for making no sense... this is the definition of a nonsensical statement.

On the one hand there is the title you give yourself ("Atheist") and on the other hand, there is the title you think God doesn't want ("Atheist") which you think means you "can't serve" "God" because otherwise he will take you being "Atheist" from you, even though being God He definitely realizes that if He wants to be called Atheist, you (to some extent) will too.

Do you know what the term Atheist implies? How you are using it here is also nonsensical.

You might think I am saying forfeit everything to God, I don't know (but I am not saying there is no work involved, or that you should go bankrupt, or that your family will forget you, or something).

??

 

[Dave Ellis]

I only see one scam and that is the one you are trying to pull.

Good luck.

I'm not trying to pull any kind of scam.

I'm merely pointing out you really have no reason to believe any of the things you are claiming.

When you look at the Bible, God is responsible for outlining some extremely sick and evil laws, and he kills far more people than anyone else in that book.

If we're going by body count alone... God is responsible for wiping out the entire living population of Humans, Animals and Plant Life on earth (apart from what could fit on a fairly small boat). Satan on the other hand was responsible for the deaths of 10 people.

God is ok with slavery, torture, murder, human sacrifice among other things. All Satan tries to do is turn you against God.


Now I want to make it clear, I don't believe God or Satan actually exist, but looking at the story as a neutral outsider, God has caused far more pain, suffering and chaos than anyone else, and because of his omnipotent nature, he bears full responsibility.

So yes, I would call him an evil being. I would also say the fact the church that worships him has convinced you that he is all loving (despite his record), is clearly running a scam of some sort. He's about as loving as a mafia kingpin with a grudge.

 

[WonderBeat]

I'm not trying to pull any kind of scam.

I'm merely pointing out you really have no reason to believe any of the things you are claiming.

When you look at the Bible, God is responsible for outlining some extremely sick and evil laws, and he kills far more people than anyone else in that book.

If we're going by body count alone... God is responsible for wiping out the entire living population of Humans, Animals and Plant Life on earth (apart from what could fit on a fairly small boat). Satan on the other hand was responsible for the deaths of 10 people.

God is ok with slavery, torture, murder, human sacrifice among other things. All Satan tries to do is turn you against God.


Now I want to make it clear, I don't believe God or Satan actually exist, but looking at the story as a neutral outsider, God has caused far more pain, suffering and chaos than anyone else, and because of his omnipotent nature, he bears full responsibility.

So yes, I would call him an evil being. I would also say the fact the church that worships him has convinced you that he is all loving (despite his record), is clearly running a scam of some sort. He's about as loving as a mafia kingpin with a grudge.

Why believe anything you say? You could, after all, simply be a deceiver. Actually, I think you are, sub-consciously.

Your very method of finding the truth refutes itself.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Why believe anything you say? You could, after all, simply be a deceiver. Actually, I think you are, sub-consciously.

Your very method of finding the truth refutes itself.

Care to explain how? Or are you only going to rely on assertion to refute my point?

If what I'm saying is wrong... you should have a fairly easy time demonstrating why. Lets hear it.

 

[steve_bakr]

I'm not trying to pull any kind of scam.

I'm merely pointing out you really have no reason to believe any of the things you are claiming.

When you look at the Bible, God is responsible for outlining some extremely sick and evil laws, and he kills far more people than anyone else in that book.

If we're going by body count alone... God is responsible for wiping out the entire living population of Humans, Animals and Plant Life on earth (apart from what could fit on a fairly small boat). Satan on the other hand was responsible for the deaths of 10 people.

God is ok with slavery, torture, murder, human sacrifice among other things. All Satan tries to do is turn you against God.

Now I want to make it clear, I don't believe God or Satan actually exist, but looking at the story as a neutral outsider, God has caused far more pain, suffering and chaos than anyone else, and because of his omnipotent nature, he bears full responsibility.

So yes, I would call him an evil being. I would also say the fact the church that worships him has convinced you that he is all loving (despite his record), is clearly running a scam of some sort. He's about as loving as a mafia kingpin with a grudge.

Why do you come into CF? To argue against God. Why do you need to do that?? It could be that you have unresolved feelings about God. Perhaps subconsciously you feel dawn to God, so you come talk to Christians, trying to convince yourself that you don't need God. I can't think of another reason why you would be here.

Things were different in the Old Testament. The Israelites were a warrior nation. Eventually, people's understanding about God changed. God is a loving God. He manifested himself in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ demonstrates who God is.

He never killed anybody. He healed them instead.

 

[madaz]

No, its just logically impossible for you to believe God is anything less than an Atheist too. Slight difference..

^^^Obviously by the statement you made above you have no idea what is logically impossible?^^^

On the one hand there is the title you give yourself ("Atheist") and on the other hand, there is the title you think God doesn't want ("Atheist") which you think means you "can't serve" "God" because otherwise he will take you being "Atheist" from you, even though being God He definitely realizes that if He wants to be called Atheist, you (to some extent) will too.

Atheist is not a title I give myself. I did not choose to be an Atheist, I just am, just like being a male, it was not my decision.

It was probably your gods decision

You have time to waste.

Yes I am wasting a lot of time on you.

Gottservant-

It has become obvious during this discussion that you do not understand Atheism. I can not speak on behalf of all Atheists but I will offer you some knowledge for your information.

Fact-Everybody born on earth is born an Atheist!

However....

Some of us are "scammed" at a young age by adults, usually via a threat of eternal torment or reward of eternal bliss to move away our default position as Atheists.

Others actually make a decision as adults to move away from the default position as Atheists.

Religion is a lifestyle choice. And people who choose such lifestyles are the ones who are accountable for their beliefs, not the Atheists.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Why do you come into CF? To argue against God. Why do you need to do that?? It could be that you have unresolved feelings about God. Perhaps subconsciously you feel dawn to God, so you come talk to Christians, trying to convince yourself that you don't need God. I can't think of another reason why you would be here.

Well, thanks for the condescending speech.

Believe it or not, there are people that actually do not believe your god has any more credibility than Zeus or Santa Claus. There's nothing unresolved about my feelings in this area.

If you want to know why I'm here... there's two main reasons

1) I enjoy debating, and what better topic to debate than religion? There is an endless supply of new ideas and new claims, spanning countless numbers of religions and denominations. So in short, I do it because it's enjoyable, and a benefit to myself as I get to hone my critical thinking skills and debate tactics.

2) I personally view religion as one of the major problems within society today. Religion is responsible for a great many evils in this world, and retards many elements of everyday life (i.e. Public Education). It brainwashes and indoctrinates it's followers, and provides absolutely no intrinsic benefit that any secular organization could not also provide. In short, this would be a better world if there was no religion in it, and I think it's a good and noble cause to be on here arguing against it.

Things were different in the Old Testament. The Israelites were a warrior nation. Eventually, people's understanding about God changed. God is a loving God. He manifested himself in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ demonstrates who God is.

He never killed anybody. He healed them instead.

But that's not what your bible states... your Bible states that God is perfect and unchanging. People's understanding is irrelevant, the fact remains that he's apparently responsible for almost wiping out all life on earth. This is not the action of a loving being.... and I don't consider drowning people or killing them in some other way to be "healing".

As for Jesus, assuming he existed (which there isn't any evidence for), he still stands for all the evil and sadistic old testament laws. He was certainly a friendlier face than the Old Testament God, however there's a lot of pretty evil stuff that comes about within the new testament as well (i.e. the doctrine of hell). And while Jesus has some good advice, he also has plenty of bad advice as well... which is not really indicative of him actually being a God if he did really exist.

 

[Gadarene]

Why do you come into CF? To argue against God. Why do you need to do that?? It could be that you have unresolved feelings about God. Perhaps subconsciously you feel dawn to God, so you come talk to Christians, trying to convince yourself that you don't need God. I can't think of another reason why you would be here.

Please, please, please - drop this logic. It is unbelievably daft.

People disagree with the holocaust, or anti-Semitism - it does not mean they all secretly want to put on an SS uniform.

 

[steve_bakr]

Well, thanks for the condescending speech.

Believe it or not, there are people that actually do not believe your god has any more credibility than Zeus or Santa Claus. There's nothing unresolved about my feelings in this area.

If you want to know why I'm here... there's two main reasons

1) I enjoy debating, and what better topic to debate than religion? There is an endless supply of new ideas and new claims, spanning countless numbers of religions and denominations. So in short, I do it because it's enjoyable, and a benefit to myself as I get to hone my critical thinking skills and debate tactics.

2) I personally view religion as one of the major problems within society today. Religion is responsible for a great many evils in this world, and retards many elements of everyday life (i.e. Public Education). It brainwashes and indoctrinates it's followers, and provides absolutely no intrinsic benefit that any secular organization could not also provide. In short, this would be a better world if there was no religion in it, and I think it's a good and noble cause to be on here arguing against it.

But that's not what your bible states... your Bible states that God is perfect and unchanging. People's understanding is irrelevant, the fact remains that he's apparently responsible for almost wiping out all life on earth. This is not the action of a loving being.... and I don't consider drowning people or killing them in some other way to be "healing".

As for Jesus, assuming he existed (which there isn't any evidence for), he still stands for all the evil and sadistic old testament laws. He was certainly a friendlier face than the Old Testament God, however there's a lot of pretty evil stuff that comes about within the new testament as well (i.e. the doctrine of hell). And while Jesus has some good advice, he also has plenty of bad advice as well... which is not really indicative of him actually being a God if he did really exist?

In the core of every human being is a yearning for the Inifinite. I think that yearning in the atheist gets channeled into a type of transcendent intellectualism. It is a sense of being above and beyond. That in itself is a religious transcendentalism.

But it is alright, according to Catholic theologian Karl Rahner, because the atheist is seeking to reach beyond the objects of daily experience just like everyone else.

But you are really experiencing God all the time. The experience of God--your relatedness to God--is in the consciousness of your own awareness. That subjective experience is the mystery of the Infinite. That is the miracle.

 

[steve_bakr]

Please, please, please - drop this logic. It is unbelievably daft.

People disagree with the holocaust, or anti-Semitism - it does not mean they all secretly want to put on an SS uniform.

I do not see the logic in the conclusions you seem to have drawn from my post. Try my other post. It might be more objective. My alibi is that I am reading about Karl Rahner. Great stuff!

 

[Dave Ellis]

In the core of every human being is a yearning for the Inifinite. I think that yearning in the atheist gets channeled into a type of transcendent intellectualism. It is a sense of being above and beyond. That in itself is a religious transcendentalism.

I'm not even sure what you mean by a yearning for the infinite?

Likewise, I have no idea what "transcendent intellectualism" is. However, I don't feel above and beyond. I believe theists are incorrect on their religious beliefs but that doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make me better or worse, nor smarter or dumber than them.

But it is alright, according to Catholic theologian Karl Rahner, because the atheist is seeking to reach beyond the objects of daily experience just like everyone else.

What do you mean by "beyond" the objects of daily experience? I have goals and dreams that I want to achieve, however I doubt that's what you are referring to. However, other than that, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

But you are really experiencing God all the time. The experience of God--your relatedness to God--is in the consciousness of your own awareness. That subjective experience is the mystery of the Infinite. That is the miracle.

Which god am I experiencing, and how do you know that?

And I don't see anything miraculous with what you're referring to.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I do not see the logic in the conclusions you seem to have drawn from my post. Try my other post. It might be more objective. My alibi is that I am reading about Karl Rahner. Great stuff!

What he's referring to is your alluding to the idea that since I'm on here arguing against Christianity, that I must be some kind of Christian in denial.

He was comparing that situation to some other similar ideas... for example, someone fighting against antisemitism does not mean they are a closet nazi. It means they are genuinely fighting against antisemitism.

Somehow Christians get the idea that anyone who argues against their God or religion must be a believer. It's an absurd proposition.

 

[Gadarene]

In the core of every human being is a yearning for the Inifinite. I think that yearning in the atheist gets channeled into a type of transcendent intellectualism. It is a sense of being above and beyond. That in itself is a religious transcendentalism.

But it is alright, according to Catholic theologian Karl Rahner, because the atheist is seeking to reach beyond the objects of daily experience just like everyone else.

But you are really experiencing God all the time. The experience of God--your relatedness to God--is in the consciousness of your own awareness. That subjective experience is the mystery of the Infinite. That is the miracle.

Or....you know, maybe you're just experiencing a sense of numinousness at the wonders of an entirely god-free universe and mistaking it for a deity tickling your brain.

This kind of deepity works both ways - all ways, in fact, for all religions, and as such is therefore utterly meaningless.

 

[steve_bakr]

Or....you know, maybe you're just experiencing a sense of numinousness at the wonders of an entirely god-free universe and mistaking it for a deity tickling your brain.

This kind of deepity works both ways - all ways, in fact, for all religions, and as such is therefore utterly meaningless.

The fact that there are commonalities in religions does not make them meaningless.

Also, with all the amazing discoveries about the universe, I am surprised that more scientists don't beieve in God.

I don't have a problem with your being an atheist, but I do take issue with your apparent belief that your particular mindset--your way of approaching the mystery of existence--is THE valid one, and therefore the religious approach is "meaningless."

BTW, That "deepity" was primarily my paraphrase of some of the thought of Karl Rahner, who was the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century.