Those unions watching out for their workers...

[mathetes123]

Mutual agreement is only possible with absolute transparency and a level ground. Neither exist.

Nor do I assume that any pay is fair -- but what I do question is why you think that mgmt pay up to 300x more than employee pay is fair.

How would you decide what a fair wage is?

 

[mathetes123]

Yet the owner of the vineyard in the parable pays an equal and generous wage (a Centurions wage for agrarian labor) regardless of the amount of time spent working or skill set.

And yet the people who agreed to their wage complained anyway that they did not receive a fair wage because someone else made more.

 

[Thekla]

In what way is there not a level ground?
It is the governments job to provide for equal opportunity, not equal results. That is where personal responsibility comes Into play.

Transparency, full information, and a level ground (which includes relative need and other contextual factors) are needed for fairness in negotiation -- none of these actually exist.

Further, the law prefers some over others (as in the "legal theft" of pension contributions at Hostess, etc.). In this instance, Hostess mgmt made promises they did not keep, yet there is no consequence for that action. Is that "fair and just" ?

 

[MachZer0]

Mutual agreement is only possible with absolute transparency and a level ground. Neither exist.

Not sure where you came up with that concept.

Nor do I assume that any pay is fair -- but what I do question is why you think that mgmt pay up to 300x more than employee pay is fair.

It's fair because it's all by mutual agreement. A manager makes more than the laborer because his contribution is more valuable and his his skills are in greater demand

 

[Thekla]

And yet the people who agreed to their wage complained anyway that they did not receive a fair wage because someone else made more.

Sure, but they all received more than enough to live on; all were paid well above the typical wage for their skill set.

Ie, God's fairness is unlike human fairness -- His fair and just is neither the "law of the jungle" (pre OT law), nor OT law fair (the law of man, equal rights, an eye for an eye).

 

[Thekla]

Not sure where you came up with that concept.
It's fair because it's all by mutual agreement. A manager makes more than the laborer because his contribution is more valuable and his his skills are in greater demand

So demand = fair and just.

And by this we know that CEOs in the US are more rare and valuable than anywhere else and at any other time in US history.

So why are they ?

 

[mathetes123]

So demand = fair and just.

And by this we know that CEOs in the US are more rare and valuable than anywhere else and at any other time in US history.

So why are they ?

If you pay everyone the same regardless of the job you remove all incentive. If someone can make the same money as a greeter at Walmart as a doctor, who is going to invest the time, money, sweat and tears for the additional education, training and experience and who is going to fill the highly skilled jobs after everyone quits to work at Walmart.

 

[MachZer0]

So demand = fair and just.

Again, I don't know where you came up with that concept

And by this we know that CEOs in the US are more rare and valuable than anywhere else and at any other time in US history.

So why are they ?

CEO's have skill sets that are harder to find than say the skill sets required to drive a truck. That makes them more valuable as far as salary goes.

 

[mathetes123]

If you pay everyone the same regardless of the job you remove all incentive. If someone can make the same money as a greeter at Walmart as a doctor, who is going to invest the time, money, sweat and tears for the additional education, training and experience and who is going to fill the highly skilled jobs after everyone quits to work at Walmart.

The free market economy is the most efficient means of matching the supply and demand maximizing the profits and wages to the greatest number of people.

 

[Assyrian]

Matthew 20:1-16
Chapter 20
Laborers in the Vineyard
1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you. ' 5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day? ' 7 They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us. ' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too. ' 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first. ' 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat. ' 13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity? ' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

Luke 16:1 He also said to the disciples, "There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his possessions.
2 And he called him and said to him, 'What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your management, for you can no longer be manager.'
3 And the manager said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.
4 I have decided what to do, so that when I am removed from management, people may receive me into their houses.'
5 So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
6 He said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.'
7 Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
8 The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

Do you think Jesus was recommending being a dishonest business manager?

 

[whatbogsends]

The free market forces of supply and demand determine what a fair valuation is. A fair wage is what people are willing to work for.

Bzzzt. Thanks for playing. CEO wages aren't set at "what people are willing to work for". They are set WELL ABOVE what many qualified people would accept. It's not about performance, value add, or what you know. It's about who you know.

 

[Thekla]

If you pay everyone the same regardless of the job you remove all incentive. If someone can make the same money as a greeter at Walmart as a doctor, who is going to invest the time, money, sweat and tears for the additional education, training and experience and who is going to fill the highly skilled jobs after everyone quits to work at Walmart.

So the only viable motivation for a particular job or acquiring a particular skill set is money ? (No wonder apostles are so hard to come by ...)

Yet your description is not in accord with the parable you cited, as all received an equal and generous payment.

 

[kermit]

Except that union workers can't expect to earn the same amount for producing a product that is less in demand.

Agreed, but how you have defended the execs making far more. The line workers are not responsible for coming up with new products that keep up with changing market demands. That job is up to the company execs. Due to their failure to do so all the employees are without jobs. While the company was circling the drain, rather than work to revamp their product offerings, the execs chose to grant themselve lavish (by any standard) raises. That you refuse to a) call the execs out for running the company into the ground and b) criticize them for lavishly rewarding their own faillure is very telling.

 

[Assyrian]

Isn't that the way the Democrat Party approaches minorities? They (the politicians) seem to think it's fair.

Perhaps the Republicans will learn not to leave so many minorities in desperation.

 

[mathetes123]

Luke 16:1 He also said to the disciples, "There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his possessions.
2 And he called him and said to him, 'What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your management, for you can no longer be manager.'
3 And the manager said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.
4 I have decided what to do, so that when I am removed from management, people may receive me into their houses.'
5 So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
6 He said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.'
7 Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
8 The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

Do you think Jesus was recommending being a dishonest business manager?

Of course not.

 

[Thekla]

Again, I don't know where you came up with that concept

I asked how a fair wage is set - the answer has been "the market".
Demand and supply are part of "the market".

CEO's have skill sets that are harder to find than say the skill sets required to drive a truck. That makes them more valuable as far as salary goes.

How much more valuable ?

 

[Assyrian]

Of course not.

Then you should stick to the lessons Jesus was teaching in the parables rather than using them as illustrations of fair and just employment.

 

[mathetes123]

I asked how a fair wage is set - the answer has been "the market".
Demand and supply are part of "the market".

How much more valuable ?

How would you determine the wages for hostess such that they are "fair" In your mind?

 

[mathetes123]

Then you should stick to the lessons Jesus was teaching in the parables rather than using them as illustrations of fair and just employment.

The parable I quoted was applicable.

 

[Thekla]

The parable I quoted was applicable.

And had everyone, regardless of the amount of time worked or skill set, receiving and equal and generous wage above their skill set.