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Electric suns, solar flares and coronal mass ejections.

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..snipped Michael's usual insults and belittling...
Six papers in which you simply ignored the terms the author *actually* used,
The term that authors actually used was "electrical discharge" and "electrical discharge potential". I did not ignore what they wrote.
I did what any competent person would do and tried to find out what they meant by "electrical discharge". Was it actual lightning as in Peratt? Was it large current density as in Dungey? Did they have their own meaning for the term? Did they use someone else's meaning for the term?
The answer was:
Defintely (with 1 probably) Dungey:
  1. James Dungey 1
  2. James Dungey 2
  3. Ronald Giovanelli (a book reference)
  4. J. P. Wild (1963)
  5. T. S. Kozhanov (1973)
  6. E. Ya. Vil'koviskii (1974)
Interesting but not that relevant
  1. Tatsuzo Obayashi (1975)
  2. S. Ibadov (2012)
I have seen cases of pure denial but that is ludicrous - you cannot even read the papers, read my post and see that I mention the terms the author *actually* used!

Peratt's definition of electrical discharges *in plasma* is 100% consistent with the use of each of the 8 *other* authors that I cited.
Pure denial: Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma (unless you do a ridiculous quote mining of Peratt's definition)! The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge :doh: and is obsolete!
 
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There's no problem "understanding" it, there's a problem *agreeing* with it!
If you understood it than you would agree with it :p!
From JREF's Ziggurat:
17th April 2010: I've explained to you MANY times why you're totally wrong about this. ...
This boils down to the simple fact that the photosphere is different from the corona! So no one should expect them to act exactly the same.

If you understood it than you would be able to point out what is wrong with the explanation rather then spouting unsupported assertions.

Or you could just do a Google search on the topic, e.g.
Why is the corona hotter than the photosphere?

Or you could try actually buying a text book on solar physics and reading it!

The mainstream's *claim* about the "opacity" or lack thereof, of the photosphere is the issue and the debate.
...snipped fantasy about convection...
..snipped usual unsupported assertions...
There is no issue or debate: The photosphere has opacity :doh:!
Opacity is the measure of impenetrability to electromagnetic or other kinds of radiation, especially visible light. In radiative transfer, it describes the absorption and scattering of radiation in a medium, such as a plasma, dielectric, shielding material, glass, etc.
 
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Michael

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The term that authors actually used was "electrical discharge" and "electrical discharge potential".

Those statements by 8 authors just so happen to *destroy* your claim that "electrical discharges are impossible in plasma."

I did not ignore what they wrote.
Your in denial that electrical discharges occur in plasma *in spite* of their claims to the contrary! What else can you call it? Pure denial of scientific fact?

I did what any competent person would do
A "competent person" would have read a book on this topic. You are an *incompetent person* on this topic!

and tried to find out what they meant by "electrical discharge".
What they "meant" was that RC is full of baloney when he claimed that electrical discharges in plasma are impossible. That's what they meant.

Was it actual lightning as in Peratt?
Peratt's definition of a discharges does not require a dielectric breakdown. It only requires a fast release of EM energy. You've kludged his definition to suit yourself as usual.

Was it large current density as in Dungey?
Dungey specifically used the term "electrical discharge" RC, not "large current density". He blew you ignorant claims out of the water in the 50's!

Did they have their own meaning for the term?
Only RC has his own definition of terms, like photons without kinetic energy and electrical discharges that aren't actually electrical discharges.

Did they use someone else's meaning for the term?
The answer was:
The answer was obvious. They all agree on terms. You're the one that can't handle the term "electrical discharge" as written.

Defintely (with 1 probably) Dungey:
  1. James Dungey 1
  2. James Dungey 2
  3. Ronald Giovanelli (a book reference)
  4. J. P. Wild (1963)
  5. T. S. Kozhanov (1973)
  6. E. Ya. Vil'koviskii (1974)
Interesting but not that relevant
  1. Tatsuzo Obayashi (1975)
  2. S. Ibadov (2012)
I have seen cases of pure denial but that is ludicrous - you cannot even read the papers, read my post and see that I mention the terms the author *actually* used!
They all used the term "electrical discharge". You can't handle their *real* comments.

Stop citing yourself. It's just lame at this point.
 
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Michael

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From another thread:

Wow, Michael!
You are proud of co-authoring paper....

Yep. That's 5 more relevant papers on the topic of astronomy than you have written to date.

on an easily debunked theory?
In your case the term "debunk" apparently means 'handwave at while in pure denial of the fact that the standard solar theory was falsified by SDO helioseismology data in 2012. In fact, it would seem that your entire belief system is predicated upon living in the past as it relates to scientific information.

At least I'm not in pure denial of scientific fact like you:
Yes you are. You're in pure denial of the scientific fact that electrical discharges happen in plasma. You're in pure denial of the scientific fact that photons have kinetic energy. You're in pure denial of the scientific fact that standard solar theory was *falsified* by SDO data. You're in pure denial of the scientific fact that you cannot understand a topic properly without *studying* it properly which typically involves reading a textbook on the topic.

Can you show how a neutron star with a minimum mass of ~1.4 solar masses can be in the center of the Sun, Michael?
As usual you keep ignoring the difference between the minimum *formation* mass of a neutron star (theoretical), and it's *minimum potential size after it starts to decay*. Why bother explaining anything to you since it all goes in one ear and out the other? You do nothing but keep citing yourself repeatedly, and asking the very same questions over and over and over again. Is there any point in trying to have a conversation with a true "hater" who's never read a single book on the topic in question, and who refuses to provide *external* links for any points in dispute? I've honestly seen YEC proponents do a *far* better job in debate in terms of making real points than you are doing. All you're doing is going in endless circles related to your own internal belief systems, and no other opinion on the whole planet matters to you.
 
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Michael

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If you understood it than you would agree with it :p!

Er, no. I understand that some people once believed the world was flat, or that the Earth was the center of the universe. That doesn't mean I agree with them in 2012.

I also understand that gas model solar theory went down in flames in 2012.

Or you could just do a Google search on the topic, e.g.
Why is the corona hotter than the photosphere?

The problem is that all your 'explanations' require fast convection processes to get them going. Birkeland's model requires nothing from convection since convection isn't the cause of coronal heating in Birkeland's model. Current flow heats the solar atmosphere in Birkeland's model.

None of this matters to you because you've never read a single textbook on this topic and you have no *real* understanding of the physics involved. You're not capable of even understanding that all photons have and lose kinetic energy. You're not capable of understanding that electrical discharges occur in plasma. You're not capable of understanding even the *basics* of this topic because you make no effort to educate yourself, and you do not look for external support of your own claims!

Or you could try actually buying a text book on solar physics and reading it!

Been there, done that 20+ years ago, and I've read hundreds of papers since then. I've read at least five textbooks on plasma physics theory, and I've published 5 papers on this topic. You've maybe read a book on standard solar physics. Pity for you it was falsified in 2012.

There is no issue or debate: The photosphere has opacity :doh:!

There is never a 'debate' in your mind because your personal claims are apparently 'gospel' to you, whether they are right or not! You don't even care what anyone else thinks, says, writes about, publishes, etc. All you care about is cyberstalking on a topic you really know *nothing* about! :doh:
 
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Michael

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That is a lie - read the definition where he talks about dielectric breakdown.

No, he did not! He cited *an* example that involved a dielectric breakdown, but his *definition* did not list that as a requirement. You read that in there all on your own.

In fact you've intentionally kludged his words since day one. He states that an electrical discharge in plasma is defined as a sudden release of stored magnetic or electric energy. Period. He cites no *requirement* of a dielectric breakdown! You're *stuffing* that requirement in there all on your own *in spite* of the *actual* definition. Peratt simply cited a *common human example* of what a 'discharge in plasma' looks like. It *can* but does not have to involve a dielectric breakdown. It can simply be an "electrical discharge" in plasma caused by circuit disruption as many EU proponents have written about.

When are you *ever* intending to read a real textbook on this topic RC?
 
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Michael

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That is a dumb statement:
Dungey's use of the term "electrical discharge" really means "electrical discharge".
Now what does "electrical discharge" mean?

It means *you're wrong* and you can't handle it. Because you can't handle it, and you can't handle being wrong, you're going to attempt to *rationalize away* a half dozen authors based on *you stuffing words in their mouth*. That's what you're going to do.

An invalid idea that is largely ignored is what makes Bruce a crank.
No, even if that were true (it's not), it just makes Bruce and Dungey and Giovanelli and others a minority opinion, and it makes you a verbally abusive crackpot. You are also ignorant by choice on this particular topic and everyone knows it, so the *actual* "crank" is you, not the guy that published several papers on solar physics.
 
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Those statements by 8 authors just so happen to *destroy* your claim that "electrical discharges are impossible in plasma."
...snipped further ignoranca about my "claim"...
...snipped a repeated lie about Peratt's definition...
...snipped Michael's ignorance of what Dunggey wrote...
I do not claim that: Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma (unless you do a ridiculous quote mining of Peratt's definition)! The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge :doh: and is obsolete!

Stop citing yourself. It's just lame at this point.
I am not citing myself. I am linking to my post which contains the citations to the scientific literature and the questions that you are unable to answer about electrical discharges in the literature.
Read the actual literature I cite in this linked to post:
Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma (unless you do a ridiculous quote mining of Peratt's definition)! The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge :doh: and is obsolete!
 
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...snipped rant...
As usual you keep ignoring the difference between the minimum *formation* mass of a neutron star (theoretical), and it's *minimum potential size after it starts to decay*.
...snipped Micheal's usual insults...
As usual you forget about the actual physics!
Neutron star
A typical neutron star has a mass between about 1.4 and 3.2 solar masses[1][2][3] (see Chandrasekhar Limit), ...
The Sun is a typical star so should conatin a typical neutron star.

But :wave:!
Supernovae vary and so the Chandrasekhar Limit can be exceeded, e.g. SMC X-1 is one of the few neutron stars that are at the minimum mass expected from a supernova (~1 solar mass).
Determination of the mass of the neutron star in SMC X-1, LMC X-4 and Cen X-3 with VLT/UVES

So let us put SMC X-1 into the Sun. This is a ~1 solar mass that replaces a superhero of plasma within a radius of ~12 km of the Sun's center. Remove that sphere and the Sun's mass does not change by much. We end up with a Sun with a mass of ~2 solar masses!

FYI, Michael: The mass of the Sun is 1.9891×10[SUP]30(/SUP] kg - the implicit uncertainty is 0.0001 ×10[SUP]30(/SUP] kg.
 
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...usual rants sniped...
There is no issue or debate: The photosphere has opacity :doh:!
Opacity is the measure of impenetrability to electromagnetic or other kinds of radiation, especially visible light. In radiative transfer, it describes the absorption and scattering of radiation in a medium, such as a plasma, dielectric, shielding material, glass, etc.
(my emphasis added)

I do hope that you are not in denial of this basic physics, i.e. that plasma has opacity (as does gas, liquids and solids!)
Some materials though are transparent (infinite opacity) or opaque (an opacity of zero).
 
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No, he did not! He cited *an* example that involved a dielectric breakdown, but his *definition* did not list that as a requirement.
...usual fantases about Peratt snipped...
...usual insults snipped...
Wrong: Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma (unless you do a ridiculous quote mining of Peratt's definition)! The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge :doh: and is obsolete!
And all his examples in that section have the breakdown of a dielectric medium!
 
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It means *you're wrong*
...usual insults snipped...
It means that I am right :doh:
Dungey's use of the term "electrical discharge" really means "electrical discharge".
When you read Dungey's papers then one (not you Michael) learns that:
18th October 2011: Dungey's 'electric discharge' = high current density in magnetic reconnection
Compare that to Peratt (no large current density!) and:
13th January 2011: Dungey's and Peratt's definition of discharge are different!
 
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Before I go onto the next page in Michael's web site, here is the list of errors on the first page:
Errors in Michael's site I (minor revision needed)
Errors in Michael's site II (photosphere is not Ne and Si)!
Errors in Michael's site III (Penumbral filaments belong to sunspots)!
Errors in Michael's site IV (below? the photosphere)
Errors in Michael's site V (transition region is above photosphere)!!
Errors in Michael's site VI (RD processing does not move original images)!
Errors in Michael's site VII (Sun rotates non-uniformly)!
Errors in Michael's site VIII (Dr. Charles Bruce was wrong)!
Errors in Michael's site IX (No Birkeland electrical model of the sun)!
Errors in Michael's site X (Birkeland was mostly wrong)!
Errors in Michael's site XI (Dr. Oliver Manuel was wrong)!
Errors in Michael's site XII (Kosovichev (2005) shows no iron surface)!
Errors in Michael's site XIII (3480 km is not 4800 km)!
Errors in Michael's site XIV (no mountain ranges in TRACE RD movie)!
Errors in Michael's site XV (no surface structures in SOHO RD movie)!
Errors in Michael's site XVI (no surface in flare)!
Errors in Michael's site XVII (visble light is not X-rays)!


Michael: If you can give citations to the relevant scientific literature then some of the errors will vanish. For example:
  • Evidence that anything can be seen below the photosphere in solar images.
  • Evidence that the transition zone is below the photosphere.
  • Evidence that merely taking the difference between 2 images of a solar flare above the photosphere will show mountain ranges below the photosphere.
  • Detection of Bruce's dust on the Sun.
  • Evidence for the existence of very low mass neutron stars (much less that 1 solar mass).
  • Papers that show that the photosphere does not have convection in it (despite the convection cells that are visible!) and so is not mixed up H, He, Li, Fe, Si, etc.
 
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Michael

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The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge :doh: and is obsolete!

This is a classic case of denial at it's finest. The term "electrical discharge" is an electrical discharge, is an electrical discharge, past, present and future. Get over it!

We are not engaging in a civil conversation. You are not even interested in a two way conversation. You're only interested in cyberharrasment apparently. Your use of the term "obsolete" is apparently your way of attempting to brush a minority scientific position under the rug, at least in your mind anyway.

I have now provided you with over 14 external references on the topics of photon kinetic energy and electrical discharges in plasma, references as current as 2012. You've never read a single textbook on plasma physics, but you fancy yourself as more knowledgeable on this topic that the Russians, Dungey, Bruce, Birkeland, Alfven, Carlqvist, Peratt, the Japanese and pretty much anyone else you decide to ignore, or put words in their mouth.

What is the point of you being here other that pure harassment at this point?

You refuse to prove *external* (to yourself) references that claim electrical discharges are impossible in plasma or that photons have zero kinetic energy. You're stuck on a never ending denial-go-round that is essentially nothing more than a heavily linked personal feedback loop leading right back to your own claims! Spam, spam and more personal spam.

I am not citing myself. I am linking to my post which contains the citations to the scientific literature and the questions that you are unable to answer about electrical discharges in the literature.
You keep linking to yourself and here is the utterly irrational claim you made about a book you never read:
Electrical discharges require breakdown of a dielectric medium (as per Peratt's definition).
You personally created a "requirement" related to a dielectric breakdown which Peratt did not make. You keep insisting an *EXAMPLE* is a definition, when in fact the definition is one sentence, specifically the first one.

It's not about a breakdown of a dielectric. That's *your* claim, and nobody else made it, not Dungey, Giovanelli, Bruce, Birkeland, Alfven, Calrqvist, the Russians or the Japanese. That's your personal *nonsense*. It's part of your denial process.

At this point we are not even having a two way conversation. You are just engaging in pure cyberharassment and you don't care what *anyone* else has to say.

It's been a week now and you've yet to provide a single valid external reference to support either of the major points in contention. You've never cited an external link that claims photons have no kinetic energy as you claimed, and that photon redshift is not related to loss of photon kinetic energy because photons have no kinetic energy. You just pulled this stuff out of your back pocket!

Ditto on the claim "electrical discharges in plasma are impossible'. Ever single author I cited *blows you claim away*. None of them 'required' a dielectric breakdown, not a single one. You're not an astronomer. You're not about to read a book on plasma physics. What are you doing here RC? Be honest for a change? Are you even listening to my answers, and are you even looking for external references?

Why are you here?
 
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Michael

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As usual you forget about the actual physics!
Neutron star
[
The Sun is a typical star so should conatin a typical neutron star.

No. If it had a "typical" sized core, it would have a lot more mass than it does. As I recall the minimum mass of a neutron core before it becomes unstable is something around .1-.2 solar masses


But :wave:!
Supernovae vary and so the Chandrasekhar Limit can be exceeded, e.g. SMC X-1 is one of the few neutron stars that are at the minimum mass expected from a supernova (~1 solar mass).
ingentaconnect A model of low-mass neutron stars with a quark core
A hydrodynamical model for the explosion of a neutron star just below the minimum mass

In terms of theoretical physics, you really need to get out more.

So let us put SMC X-1 into the Sun. This is a ~1 solar mass that replaces a superhero of plasma within a radius of ~12 km of the Sun's center. Remove that sphere and the Sun's mass does not change by much. We end up with a Sun with a mass of ~2 solar masses!
I know we've already had this conversation at JREF and you're still repeating the same nonsense, even when I spend the time to actually *answer* your question. What is the point of finding you *external* references to support low mass neutron stars when you refuse to consider them, or consider that issue "answered". Around you go on that never ending denial go round as though I've never cited low mass neutron star material for you. Why do you ask questions if you don't listen to, or register the answer?
 
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Michael

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There is no issue or debate: The photosphere has opacity :doh:!

Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by Merriam-Webster as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".[1]
This description of hater obstinate behavior and intolerance sounds remarkably like your stance on PC theory in general, the topic of electrical discharges in plasma, photon kinetic energy, and the 'opacity' of the photosphere claims that you make.

I refuse to let you impose a falsified solar model claim upon a Birkeland solar model. The photosphere in a Birkeland solar model is simply another double layer of mass separated plasma, in this case predominately Neon. There's nothing special about it. It's not "opaque" to all wavelengths. It's only 500-700KM thick where it gives way to another double layer of plasma, specifically the Silicon plasma layer.

Whatever "beliefs" you hold related to that layer of the solar atmosphere, they are of no concern of mine.
 
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Michael

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Wrong: Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma

That is a blatantly false statement, one you keep repeating in spite of Dungey, in spite of Bruce, in spite of Peratt's *definition* of an electrical discharge *in plasma*, in spite of the Russians and the Japanese!

(unless you do a ridiculous quote mining of Peratt's definition)!
You are doing all the quote mining. There is no *requirement* for a breakdown of a dielectric in Dungey's use of the term 'electrical discharge' or in Peratt's definition. You really are obstinate beyond any hater I've met on any topic in terms of *refusing* to listen to an *external* resource on a topic of science you know nothing about because you've never read a textbook on the topic.

The 'electrical discharge' term used in MR (various papers) is not a discharge
Yes, it is. Only an irrational hater would go around putting words in authors mouths. They use the term "electrical discharge" exactly like Peratt defined it, namely a fast release of stored EM energy.

and is obsolete!
Your denial process is obsolete RC. You can't define terms the way you wish and refuse to allow others the same courtesy.

Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot, defined by Merriam-Webster as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".[1]
And all his examples in that section have the breakdown of a dielectric medium!
Do you know the difference between a definition and an example RC? His examples all just so happen to occur on Earth so that humans can relate to them! Oy Vey! You're impossible.
 
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