Astronomers should be sued for false advertizing.

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Elendur

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Very cool. I would have to concede that plasma physics and Electric Universe theory in general has limits on how far it can be logically extended, at least if we're going to limit PC/EU theory to pure forms of empirical (lab tested) physics. No PC/EU theory (at least for now) can include metaphysical concepts like 'space expansion', so indeed, PC/EU can't just "make up" new laws of physics, rather it's bound by them, and furthermore it's not all that constraining to be bound by them.
1. Yes, PC/EU has limits, like any theory.
2. I'm not certain that space expansion is a metaphysical concept.
3. All laws has been "made up".
4. What does freedom (i.e. the "limits") to have with natural science?

Holushko's "static universe" theory more or less sets a "base line", in terms of what can be "explained" via by use of pure plasma redshift as an "explanation" for all forms of photon redshift.
5. Has there been any math done on what angle deviations that would be acceptable before plasma redshift (each tested alone) becomes inapplicable?
That is, what is the maximum angle before the light, lets say 99% of it, won't reach us?
What would the maximum redshift of the light reaching us be?

(These are two questions that I need answers to, they are central to my doubt)

Plasma cosmology as whole however is fully capable of allowing for an expanding universe. It is limited to a pure empirical type of expansion however. So let's ask ourselves for a moment just how "constraining" that really is? Is there room to at least explain 'some' of redshift via pure empirical types of expansion? It turns out that actually, there is in fact quite a bit of 'wiggle room' in terms of pure forms of empirical expansion:

[astro-ph/0601171] Is space really expanding? A counterexample
6. The issue isn't the allowance of expansion. You act as if people are attached to the notion.
7. With an infinite universe, existing an infinite amount of time, what would explain the oscillation required to counteract the expansion we observe (if the redshift has any explanation in expansion) in order to not create a void in the middle?

Whatever limitations might actually exist in pure forms of empirical physics, they are relatively minor overall. Much of the photon redshift could be accounted for by pure forms of empirical expansion in PC theory, albeit probably not all of it. Even still, there's plenty of "wiggle room" in PC theory for all sorts of future observations we might come across, in terms of true (non superluminal) expansion options.
See points 4,5,6 and 7.

More importantly, Holushko's model is already a "generic" tired light model, one quite like Hubble's first proposal in the sense that it acknowledges both the current known forms of plasma redshift, but allows for other forms to be added as they are found. In other words, thanks to Holusko's work, the need for 'adjustments' due to later laboratory findings will be minimal. It's possible to up with more complex models that "separate" the various types of redshift for various types of activities in space as well.
8. You give the impression that the "mainstream theory" has problems with adjustments (not problems in opinions, problems in leeway for even minor changes).

Overall, PC/EU theory has a lot of room to grow, and a lot of ability to be adjusted for both real expansion, and it adjusts for known form of plasma redshift without any need for expansion, at least at the moment. It has plenty of 'wiggle room' now both in terms how much adjustment really can be done to incorporate new information.
See point 8.

Just how much 'wiggle room' do you figure there actually is in Lambda-CDM theory for any significant amount of signal broadening and plasma redshift in space?
I don't know and I have no estimation at all.
Specific for the signal broadening, I don't even know what it does and where it applies.


Sorry it took so long.
 
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Michael

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1. Yes, PC/EU has limits, like any theory.

In terms of cosmology theories in general, EU/PC theory is *far* more restricted than most. One of the "raps" against M-theory is the fact it can be "tweaked" to accommodate just about any scenario. I mean if you're going to allow for more than a half dozen new "dimensions" of spacetime, just about anything and everything can be explained by tweaking variables somewhere in the process that happen to be "invisible" in our three dimensions plus time.

Lambda-CDM has no less than *three* metaphysical fudge factors that can be "tweaked" to accommodate just about any expansion scenario, though they die a slow, agonizing and horrible death when facing a static universe scenario, and that 2011 data from LHC.

Plasma physics theory is basically restricted to the known laws of physics. IN PC theory there is no place in "space" where plasma does not exist. PC expansion theories for instance are limited to "object expansion", and nothing with mass can travel faster than C. That's a "real" physical limitation in electric universe theory that does not exist in most "scientific" cosmology theories. Most cosmology theories have extra dimensions galore to hide various fudge factors, and Lambda-CDM has three fudge factors that essentially make up more than 96 percent of their theory, particularly as we factor in inflation theory. It's possible to do just about anything if the laws of real physics are limited to only 4 percent of the entire theory in question and 96 percent of the theory is just "made up" to accommodate about anything one wants it to do.

2. I'm not certain that space expansion is a metaphysical concept.
The only type of expansion that shows up in a lab is object expansion. Unless you have evidence to the contrary *without* pointing to the sky, it's a metaphysical concept. Supposedly this expansion of space thing requires the absence all mass, which never happens in PC theory.

3. All laws has been "made up".
Not exactly. Some laws do seem to be "verifiable" in empirical experimentation. They are replicable by others, meaning that the universe does operate based on certain physical principles that do seem to be universe in scope. GR theory for instance (without the metaphysical kludges) has been verified again and again and again. That isn't to say it will not fail one day, or be replace by a "quantum field" orientation to gravity, but so far, so good for GR. It works, just like Newton's ideas work to get us around inside this solar system rather effectively I might add.

4. What does freedom (i.e. the "limits") to have with natural science?
"Natural science" is based upon a respect for nature, and an appreciation of the laws of nature. It recognizes the universal laws of physics that show up in labs and Earth, on the moon, and every place we've sent a probe to in this universe thus far.

5. Has there been any math done on what angle deviations that would be acceptable before plasma redshift (each tested alone) becomes inapplicable?
AFAIK, it's only been attempted for Compton redshift based upon an oversimplified attempt at *falsification*, not *explanation* as I recall. Unfortunately however all the funding is currently being misdirected at "dark energy" research, and nobody seems to care what plasma and photons actually do in the lab.

That is, what is the maximum angle before the light, lets say 99% of it, won't reach us?
Most such calculations would require that we actually *know* how much plasma and dust are in space, it's temperatures, it's composition, it's average electron densities, etc. All of these numbers would need to be "made up" to fit the observation in the final analysis. That's essentially what Holushko did actually. He did it the "old fashion" way, he "postdicted" a fit. I'd say that's probably the best anyone could do at the moment.

What would the maximum redshift of the light reaching us be?
I do not think we will know until the James Webb telescope is launched. Right now Hubble sees "blurry patches" at the furthest reaches of it's technology. I suspect those blurry patches will turn out to be mature galaxies for as far as the Webb Telescope can see. Stick around for another decade or two and we'll find out. :)

(These are two questions that I need answers to, they are central to my doubt)
IMO what should be "central to your doubt" is the fact that both inflation and dark energy can be replaced with pure forms of plasma physics, and processes that actually can be demonstrated in the lab. What should also be central to your doubt is the fact that SUSY theory died a painful, agonizing death at LHC in 2011, and the standard particle physics model is now complete without the need for SUSY theory. These should fuel your doubts IMO. :)

6. The issue isn't the allowance of expansion. You act as if people are attached to the notion.
The problem is simple to demonstrate. If they are incorrect, and plasma redshift is the real cause of photon redshift, then both dark energy *and* inflation become "gods of the ever shrinking gaps" arguments. That's also true of "dark matter" theory, every time someone like Ned Wright finds "normal matter" in the form of plasma that nobody has yet accounted for. The whole theory starts to 'reduce itself" to pure PC theory, the very moment we start to include any plasma physics *realities* that have been demonstrated in the lab! Their entire theory starts to reduce itself toward pure PC theory, whereas PC theory adapts itself to expansion models *without* resorting to metaphysical entities! Surely you can see how this all plays out in terms of how it works? If we *realize* they left out plasma physics processes like plasma redshift from their calculations, it's easy to see why the whole thing starts to reduce itself to PC theory the moment we start to incorporate PC physics into their theory. It *must* reduce to PC theory because we're introducing real plasma physics processes into it's maths. Lambda-CDM theory is a metaphysical house of cards that is predicated upon *not* recognizing the effect of plasma on photons.

7. With an infinite universe, existing an infinite amount of time, what would explain the oscillation required to counteract the expansion we observe (if the redshift has any explanation in expansion) in order to not create a void in the middle?
I assume it's a static universe, but if we allow for expansion, there is no guarantee that our little "sliver" of the visible universe would contain a "peek" at that particular hole in the middle. We might observe some odd layouts of matter, and indeed, if you study the actual mass layouts in the universe, they have some odd features.

Dark flow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

8. You give the impression that the "mainstream theory" has problems with adjustments (not problems in opinions, problems in leeway for even minor changes).
In terms of the fact that it becomes a metaphysical entity of the gaps argument, it sure does. Whereas EU/PC theory allows for expansion without incorporating metaphysics, the metaphysics of their theory literally "melts away' the moment we start to introduce plasma redshift into their calculations. Huloshko's model shows the limits of that "shrinking of the gaps" until there literally are no gaps, and there is no longer any need for metaphysics in the first place! Anything in between would suit me fine actually, as long as nobody is claiming the universe is expanding faster than C.

I don't know and I have no estimation at all.
Whereas PC/EU theory accommodates expansion by allowing for expansion of objects, Lambda-was-falsified-at-LHC-in-2001 theory reduces to pure PC/EU theory.

Specific for the signal broadening, I don't even know what it does and where it applies.
Not every photon will experience the same number of interactions inside of a plasma or fiber optic cable. Ashmore does a good job giving a simple explanation of pulse broadening inside of a fiber optic cable. Light will in fact "separate" into colors to a degree, and the signal will "elongate" as some photons experience more interactions in the medium and are "slowed down" more than others. The whole signal gets longer over time and distance. What they mainstream "interprets" as "time dilation" is simply an example of pulse broadening in plasma.

Sorry it took so long.
No sweat. I'm enjoying the conversation on whatever timeline works for you.
 
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Michael

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137/

There are actually two threads since the first one got so long. If you go to the last page of the second thread, I posted a movie of Swift images that show the x-ray variability of the galaxy is consistent with a variable electron flow through the structures of the Milky Way, as predicted in Pantheism. Lot's of evidence supports Pantheism. Almost nothing supports Lambda-"I-was-falsified-at-the-LHC-in-2011" theory. :)
 
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Davian

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137/

There are actually two threads since the first one got so long. If you go to the last page of the second thread, I posted a movie of Swift images that show the x-ray variability of the galaxy is consistent with a variable electron flow through the structures of the Milky Way, as predicted in Pantheism. Lot's of evidence supports Pantheism.
Of what use is a pantheistic deity? How do we test that it is there?
Almost nothing supports Lambda-"I-was-falsified-at-the-LHC-in-2011" theory. :)
Not your straw-man version of it. :)
 
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Michael

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Of what use is a pantheistic deity? How do we test that it is there?

Not your straw-man version of it. :)

Perhaps if I better understood what you personally believe supports inflation, dark energy or dark matter, I might be able to provide you with "evidence" to support pantheism. Does Lambda-CDM predict the effects of variable currents that we see traversing the Milky way in x-ray Swift images?
 
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Davian

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Of what use is a pantheistic deity? How do we test that it is there?

...

Perhaps if I better understood what you personally believe supports inflation, dark energy or dark matter, I might be able to provide you with "evidence" to support pantheism. Does Lambda-CDM predict the effects of variable currents that we see traversing the Milky way in x-ray Swift images?

No, this is about your deity. How do we test it?
 
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Michael

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No, this is about your deity. How do we test it?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137/

I actually suggested at least one actual 'experiment'. A number of 'cosmological tests' also tend to support pantheism, including those x-ray Swift images that show the effects of large scale currents that traverse the galaxy and universe.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137-30/#post61641469

What actual 'test' supports Lambda-CDM theory in your opinion?
 
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Davian

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137/

I actually suggested at least one actual 'experiment'. A number of 'cosmological tests' also tend to support pantheism, including those x-ray Swift images that show the effects of large scale currents that traverse the galaxy and universe.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7584137-30/#post61641469
Tend to support? So no tests for this deity of yours?
What actual 'test' supports Lambda-CDM theory in your opinion?
Which one? The one that you claim has been falsified?
 
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Michael

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I already explained an example of a real 'experiment" in the first thread (area EM field measurements), and I've pointed out a number of 'predictions' related to pantheism that have been confirmed by satellite imagery, including most recently those Swift images showing highly variable currents traversing the galaxy. There isn't even such a prediction in Lambda-CDM!

If you want to discuss Pantheism, respond in the appropriate thread. This thread is related to Lambda-CDM, and apparently no "test" actually supports it. :)
 
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jpcedotal

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Astronomers, evolutionists, and climate control whack jobs

These three are prime examples when politics is more important than actual science. I call them priests, because they are simply a world view...a religion.
 
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mzungu

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Astronomers, evolutionists, and climate control whack jobs

These three are prime examples when politics is more important than actual science. I call them priests, because they are simply a world view...a religion.
I have this nagging feeling that you are ignorant of the definition of "Science". You are obviously not versed in the strict laws governing science. I think you should remain with your spiritual beliefs and leave science to those that actually took the time and effort to study science! :wave:
 
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Davian

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I already explained an example of a real 'experiment" in the first thread (area EM field measurements), and I've pointed out a number of 'predictions' related to pantheism that have been confirmed by satellite imagery, including most recently those Swift images showing highly variable currents traversing the galaxy.
So, no tests specifically for this deity of yours then.
There isn't even such a prediction in Lambda-CDM!
Should there be?
If you want to discuss Pantheism, respond in the appropriate thread.
I did, but it was ignored.
This thread is related to Lambda-CDM, and apparently no "test" actually supports it. :)
Not your straw man version of it.:)
 
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Jamin4422

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I have this nagging feeling that you are ignorant of the definition of "Science".
You and me have gone over this 50 billion times about how your guilty of what you accuse others of. I thought of this when I was reading the reviews for a book on Amazon that talks about: "46 Ways You're Deluding Yourself". The point I make: this is why we have the Bible. The Bible keeps us from deluding ourselves. The Bible offers us checks and balances. Yet you keep talking about myths and perhaps your the one buying into popular myths and delusions. Then you project that out on others rather than to deal with it in yourself. While this all seems to be very common in science often it all gets played out in the media. So science can be smug and try to claim we are really not like that. This is just the way we look when the journalists write articles on science.

So science does have checks and balances. But science does get caught up into myths and delusions of grandeur that tend to remove them from the real world and put them in their ivory tower. So again, if you had not told me, I would not have known. But when you accuse others then your really only telling on yourself. Right now science has all this hype about how they are going to cure all the diseases and solve all the worlds problems. Sometimes it is more hype then anything else and they just do not deliver on that stuff because Science spends to much time deluding themselves with myths.
 
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Davian

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Astronomers, evolutionists, and climate control whack jobs

These three are prime examples when politics is more important than actual science. I call them priests, because they are simply a world view...a religion.

Theists using "religion" as an insult. I still don't get this.
 
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HitchSlap

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Astronomers, evolutionists, and climate control whack jobs

These three are prime examples when politics is more important than actual science. I call them priests, because they are simply a world view...a religion.

Do any of the "religions" you listed threaten your soul with eternal damnation if you deny their existence?
 
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This thread is related to Lambda-CDM, and apparently no "test" actually supports it. :)
All scientific models are tested. If they fail then they are not used.
There are many tests that actually support the Lambda-CDM model which is why is a standard model in cosmology:
The ΛCDM or Lambda-CDM model is a cosmological model in which the universe contains a cosmological constant, denoted by Lambda, and cold dark matter. It is frequently referred to as the standard model of Big Bang cosmology, since it is the simplest model that provides a reasonably good match to the following observations:
There are other tests for the components of the model, e.g. tests of GR, evidence for the existence of dark matter and dark energy.

P.S. - I thought that this thread was about astronomers naming a camera that could provide evidence for (or against!) dark energy, the Dark Energy Camera :D.
 
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mzungu

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So science does have checks and balances. But science does get caught up into myths and delusions of grandeur that tend to remove them from the real world and put them in their ivory tower. So again, if you had not told me, I would not have known. But when you accuse others then your really only telling on yourself. Right now science has all this hype about how they are going to cure all the diseases and solve all the worlds problems. Sometimes it is more hype then anything else and they just do not deliver on that stuff because Science spends to much time deluding themselves with myths.
God destroyed the tower of Babel and punished humans to speak in different tongues because the tower was supposed to be so high as to find God and yet the Moon missions were allowed to happen:confused: As for myths; You believe in your talking snakes and I will trust science!
 
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Michael

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All scientific models are tested. If they fail then they are not used.

Except BB models, which fail all the time, and they get modified with even more metaphysical junk, and they get used anyway. When it failed to predict a slowing universe, they added a metaphysical helping of "dark energy". Most recently it failed miserably in the lab to "predict" the presence WIMPS. Nobody really cares when it fails.

There are many tests that actually support the Lambda-CDM model which is why is a standard model in cosmology:
Ah, every "hit" is a "passed test"?

the existence and structure of the cosmic microwave background
Eddington predicted that background with a static universe! 1 passed test for static universe theory.

the large scale structure in the distribution of galaxies
Lambda-CDM doesn't "predict" such a thing, it *postdicts* the layout of matter based on magical inflation superpowers, none of which show up in the lab. That's about as dubious a "test" as it gets!

These are simply the lightest elements and therefore they most easily escape the gravity wells of suns. Of course the amount of fine tuning that goes into that claim all revolves around the existence of magical forms of matter, all of which failed to show up at LHC. If that's a "successful" test, it is predicated upon magic, and upon ignoring the "CDM" failures at LHC.

the accelerating expansion of the universe observed in the light from distant galaxies and supernovae
Holushko's work demonstrates that there is no observed expansion in those photons, let alone accelerated expansion in the light from distant galaxies, just ordinary plasma redshift.

There are other tests for the components of the model, e.g. tests of GR, evidence for the existence of dark matter and dark energy.
GR no more supports 'dark energy' than it supports magic energy. The fact you can stuff magic elf energy into a GR formula does not lend support to magic elf energy! Stop trying to use GR to support you menagerie of invisible friends! The fact you stuff various invisible friends into a GR formula is not a form of support for your invisible friends! It's a affirming the consequent fallacy at best.

P.S. - I thought that this thread was about astronomers naming a camera that could provide evidence for (or against!) dark energy, the Dark Energy Camera :D.
It is about that ongoing false advertizing perpetuated by the mainstream. That particular claim is like claiming to have created an invisible unicorn camera. It makes about as much sense, and they have about as much likelihood of being able to defend dark energy camera claims in court as they have in supporting the existence of invisible unicorn cameras.
 
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Michael

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So, no tests specifically for this deity of yours then.

False. If you can claim that Lambda-CDM passes any kind of observational "test", the same things apply to pantheism.

Should there be?
It's there and your theory fails to explain it, whereas Pantheism predicts it. Now what?

I did, but it was ignored.
Really? I must have missed it. Got a link?

Not your straw man version of it.:)
It doesn't actually pass *any* version of it, particularly since the CDM claims went up in smoke at LHC in 2011. The whole theory is on life support thanks to LHC, and nobody dares touch it lest the whole thing fall apart. Dark energy was simply the latest "ad hoc" construct related to the mainstreams failures to account for plasma redshift. As Holushko's work demonstrates, plasma redshift fully explains the supernova pulse broadening and photon redshift features *without* any need for exotic forms of matter and energy.
 
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