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Astronomers should be sued for false advertizing.

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Michael

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The lack of harm you imply makes it even more not false advertising, and not a suable offense.

Overtly blocking scientific progress in plasma redshift and plasma physics isn't "lack of harm", it's direct harm.

Except you don't get to do that. You don't get to make up laws or the application thereof just because you don't like what your government spends your money on.
Oh but I do! In a democracy I can in fact sue the government and many folks have done exactly that. Such efforts often do have a very direct impact on governmental activities.

I also think you are missing my argument. I am not interested in the actual science here, whether it is correct or incorrect. I am simply pointing out that your claiming it is false advertising and a suable offense is completely and utterly wrong.
Therein lies the difference between us. I am interested in the actual science, and the validity of the claims that are being made in terms of pure physics. You don't care. I do.

So far, you have provided no counter. Can we just take it as read you want to moan and bewail this branch of science into perpetuity, and move on to arguing the actual point? I can just pretend there are paragraphs and paragraphs of why you think they are scientifically wrong embedded in your post.
Actually, I have provided ample counter examples by Holushko, Brynjolfsson, Ashmore, Chen, Wolf and many others in this thread. You'll find the links throughout the thread. I'll be happy to post a link for you to Holushko's work again if you missed it. I have in fact offered you a host of empirical options to choose from to explain photon redshift including: Compton redshift, the Wolf effect, Stark redshift, and what Chen called "plasma redshift". I've also demonstrated that PC theory can accommodate some amount of expansion.

http://vixra.org/pdf/1203.0062v1.pdf
arXiv.org Search
Tired Light Explains Supernovae Light Curve Broadening

The mainstream keeps making a "big deal" about the supernova data, but they also keep ignoring the fact that PC theories have addressed that same data set, and have explained that same data set using signal broadening and plasma redshift. The fact that you personally do not even know that such alternatives exist demonstrates that there is in fact "harm" caused by the actions of the mainstream. They intentionally keep you in the dark to alternatives to their dogma for their own financial benefit and you call that "harmless" activity? Really?
 
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Blayz

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Overtly blocking scientific progress in plasma redshift and plasma physics isn't "lack of harm", it's direct harm.

Except they are not overtly (or otherwise) blocking anything. Making scientific claim X in no ways prevents or inhibits someone else from making claim Y.

Oh but I do! In a democracy I can in fact sue the government and many folks have done exactly that. Such efforts often do have a very direct impact on governmental activities.
What does suing your government have to do with suing the authors of this paper over your alleged "false advertising"?

Therein lies the difference between us. I am interested in the actual science, and the validity of the claims that are being made in terms of pure physics. You don't care. I do.
You caught me before my edit. But again, the validity of the claims or lack thereof in no way shape or form validates the concepts of false advertising nor suable offense.

opinion and non scientific links deleted
The mainstream keeps making a "big deal" about the supernova data, but they also keep ignoring the fact that PC theories have addressed that same data set, and have explained that same data set using signal broadening and plasma redshift.
not false advertising
not a suable offense.

The fact that you personally do not even know that such alternatives exist
Untrue.

demonstrates that there is in fact "harm" caused by the actions of the mainstream. They intentionally keep you in the dark to alternatives to their dogma for their own financial benefit and you call that "harmless" activity? Really?
You have provided no evidence that this happens in any way, shape or form. You have moved from the authors of this paper to "the mainstream". You wanna sue them now?

Also not false advertising.

You are beating around the bush.
 
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Michael

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Except they are not overtly (or otherwise) blocking anything. Making scientific claim X in no ways prevents or inhibits someone else from making claim Y.

That's not entirely true and it's still a false claim any way you look at it. False claims do actually impede progress toward finding *real* empirical explanations for photon redshift. They take money and resources away from real empirical physics. There is no correlation between photon redshift and 'dark energy'. Period. "Dark energy did it" is not an "explanation" in the first place, it's a placeholder term for human ignorance which explains why nobody can even name a source of "dark energy".

What does suing your government have to do with suing the authors of this paper over your alleged "false advertising"?
The Dark Energy Survey is supported by funding from the U.S. Department of Energy;
It's the department of Energy that is providing funds to this study and commenting on the device.

"The achievement of first light through the Dark Energy Camera begins a significant new era in our exploration of the cosmic frontier," said James Siegrist, associate director of science for high energy physics with the U.S. Department of Energy. "The results of this survey will bring us closer to understanding the mystery of dark energy, and what it means for the universe."
The actual "mystery" isn't even "dark energy" in the first place, it's "photon redshift" that is the actual "mystery". Specifically it's the empirical 'cause' of photon redshift that is the 'mystery'. This cosmology research project will not bring us even a tiny bit closer to understanding the mystery of "dark energy". There isn't even an actual "mystery" as to why they need placeholder terms for human ignorance in their math formulas. They clearly left out real processes in plasma physics, specifically pulse broadening and plasma redshift. What mystery? There is no "mystery" as to why their "toy" version of physics won't work without metaphysical gap fillers.

You caught me before my edit. But again, the validity of the claims or lack thereof in no way shape or form validates the concepts of false advertising nor suable offense.
No, that's not true in court. If I claim that my "special product" is a cure for cancer, but I get to court and can't even site a source for my special ingredient, let alone show any empirical cause/effect link between my special ingredient and cancer, do you think I'd win in court? You just can't make up claims in the consumer market that are not testable, and not supported in the lab. I can't claim that there are cause/effect links where there are none.

opinion and non scientific links deleted
In other words, you simply *ignored* the empirical causes of photon redshift as observed in the lab in favor of a "dark sky religion" because some "scientists" erroneously told you that dark energy is related to photon redshift. :(

You're going to toss out empirical physics entirely? You don't call that "damage"?
 
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Michael

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Michael I dedicate this video to your tired light steady state theories!^_^

The ironic part from my vantage point is that your trio of invisible friends have less combined effect on anything in the lab, than 1 part in 10,000,000 of anything. :D
 
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mzungu

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The ironic part from my vantage point is that your trio of invisible friends have less combined effect on anything in the lab, than 1 part in 10,000,000 of anything. :D
imaginary_friend.gif
 
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Michael

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That's a rather ironic cartoon. You apparently have three invisible friends. Even combined, they are apparently more impotent on Earth than Jesus. More importantly, all of your invisible friends are easily replaced with pure plasma physics. :p
 
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Blayz

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it's still a false claim any way you look at it.

That may well be true. There are plenty of false claims out there. My entire PhD nearly died because the published work it was supposed to be based on turned out to be complete and utter rubbish. Still, and I'll just keep plugging away at this until it sinks in:

Not false advertising
Not a suable offense.

False claims do actually impede progress toward finding *real* empirical explanations for photon redshift.
False claims do not impede anything. Any other scientist in the field is entitled to collect their own data and create their own interpretation. Happens all the time, in this field as well as others.

They take money and resources away from real empirical physics.
This is entirely your opinion. If you have a problem with the way whatever agency it is that distributes funding for astrophysical research, then might I suggest you take it up with them. Wanna know what it's not?

a) False advertising
b) suable offense.

[unsupported opinion on red shift that has nothing to do with the conversation snipped]

No, that's not true in court. If I claim that my "special product" is a cure for cancer, but I get to court and can't even site a source for my special ingredient, let alone show any empirical cause/effect link between my special ingredient and cancer, do you think I'd win in court?
There are plenty of people that have, case in point Burzynski.

You just can't make up claims in the consumer market that are not testable, and not supported in the lab. I can't claim that there are cause/effect links where there are none.
You can and people have, but again, it's entirely irrelevant to the argument. These authors are not making claims in the consumer market, they are making claims in the scientific literature.

[more irrelevancy snipped]

You still have not show any evidence for
a) False advertising
b) suable offense.

I really need to right a macro to repeat that, starting to develop RSI.
 
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mzungu

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That's a rather ironic cartoon. You apparently have three invisible friends. Even combined, they are apparently more impotent on Earth than Jesus. More importantly, all of your invisible friends are easily replaced with pure plasma physics. :p
Trust me I have more than three friends and they are as visible as the sun at noon on a clear day! WOW! you have gone from astronomy to invisible friends:confused: Hmmm! Talk about crackpot ideas! ^_^^_^^_^:p
 
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Michael

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That may well be true. There are plenty of false claims out there. My entire PhD nearly died because the published work it was supposed to be based on turned out to be complete and utter rubbish.

Do tell. You piqued my curiosity. :)

Still, and I'll just keep plugging away at this until it sinks in:

Not false advertising
Not a suable offense.

It seems to me that we will eventually have to agree to disagree on this particular point. I might have more sympathy for your position were it not for the fact that *taxpayer money* (not private funding) is being spent on this "camera". From my skeptical perspective, it's no more a "dark energy camera" than it's a 'ghost' camera, or a 'dark unicorn camera', or a 'dark invisible faerie camera'. There is no demonstrated cause/effect link between 'dark energy' and photon redshift, whereas there are other demonstrated plasma redshift mechanisms that have been shown to have a tangible effect on photon redshift in the lab.

Dark energy is not a "thing". It's simply a placeholder term for human ignorance, specifically the ignorance of *real* plasma physics where pulse/signal broadening actually occurs in plasma as does plasma redshift. These empirical causes of photon redshift in plasma/dust include: The Wolf effect, Compton redshift, Stark redshift and what Chen et all called "plasma redshift".

Holushko's mathematical model addresses the same supernova data and his model explains the supernova data perfectly without resorting to inflation or dark energy. I have no empirical use for 'dark sky religions' that require no less that three pure acts of faith on the part of the 'believer', and requires that the plasmas and photons in space work entirely differently than they work in the lab.

If the government were not spending my hard earned tax dollars on this dark nonsense, I might have some sympathy for your points, in fact I'd be inclined to agree with you. As it stands however, it's *my* money, not just "their" money, and I do care about scientific accuracy. It's a 'camera' that is sensitive to photons in a specific spectrum range, specifically the red end of the spectrum. The actual *cause* of photon redshift is the real 'mystery', not 'dark energy'. Dark energy is a "sky religion" that literally requires the believer to ignore the falsification process that took place at LHC regarding SUSY theory.

False claims do not impede anything. Any other scientist in the field is entitled to collect their own data and create their own interpretation. Happens all the time, in this field as well as others.

I agree with you position so long as we're talking about *private* funding. Anyone is welcome to spend their private monies anyway they see fit, on whatever boondoggle they wish. When it comes to *my* money however, it's a different story. When they spend public money on this nonsense, they have to start answering to an angry public that has every right to call them on their false claims.

In any courtroom in this country, with enough money, it can be shown that there are several "natural causes" of photon redshift in plasma and dust, including the Wolf effect, Compton redshift, Stark redshift and what Chen describes as 'plasma redshift'. Chen has even shown an empirical link between the number of free electrons in the plasma and the amount of photon redshift caused by that feature. The bulk of the universe is in the plasma state.

Lambda-CDM theory is predicated upon ignoring every type of demonstrate form of plasma redshift. It 'assumes' that the plasma in space is a 'magical plasma' where pulse broadening and plasma redshift never happen. Sorry, I simply don't buy that metaphysical/religious song and dance routine, and so long as they are spending my money on that dark sky mythology, they will be held accountable for their actions and their claims.
 
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Michael

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Trust me I have more than three friends and they are as visible as the sun at noon on a clear day!

Inflation, dark energy and SUSY theories are 'invisible' and they fail to show up in experiments on Earth. They are certainly more impotent on Earth than your average religious concept of "God".

The Wolf effect, Compton redshift, Stark redshift and Chen's 'plasma redshift' easily replace your dark sky mythological entities. In fact they are the actual empirical 'cause' of photon redshift as demonstrated in the lab. The fact that Lambda-CDM does not account for these empirical causes of photon redshift in plasma is the reason they require placeholder terms for human ignorance in the first place. Their "toy/pretend/dumbed down/pseudoscientific" brand of plasma physics simply won't work right on paper without metaphysical gap filler to take the place of the real physical causes of plasma redshift.
 
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Naraoia

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Michael

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Michael

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And my favorite line of the article:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/10/17/have-we-reached-the-end-of-particle-physics/

Holy. Crap.
So I want you to understand this correctly, because this could be huge. If asymptotic safety is right, and the work done in this paper is right, then an observation of a Higgs Boson with a mass of 126 GeV, with a very small uncertainty (±1 or 2 GeV), would be damning evidence against supersymmetry, extra dimensions, technicolor, or any other theory that incorporates any new particles that could be found by any accelerator that could be built within our Solar System.
Apparently since they found the Higgs in that energy state, they now have "damning evidence against supersymmetry". Assuming this is true, there would essentially be no way to test any more 'SUSY' theories in the lab, and there is no need for them in the first place. That makes Lambda-CDM dependent upon three pure acts of faith on the part of the "believer" for ever and ever. It also requires that the laws of physics in space work differently than in the lab. Sorry, I'm sticking with empirical physics.
 
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Naraoia

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And my favorite line of the article:
Have we reached the end of Particle Physics? – Starts With A Bang

Apparently since they found the Higgs in that energy state, they now have "damning evidence against supersymmetry". Assuming this is true, there would essentially be no way to test any more 'SUSY' theories in the lab, and there is no need for them in the first place. That makes Lambda-CDM dependent upon three pure acts of faith on the part of the "believer" for ever and ever. It also requires that the laws of physics in space work differently than in the lab. Sorry, I'm sticking with empirical physics.
All of that, of course, is conditional on the "if asymptotic safety is right" bit at the beginning ;)
 
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Michael

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All of that, of course, is conditional on the "if asymptotic safety is right" bit at the beginning ;)

Either way, simple SUSY theories were already falsified at LHC and the standard particle physics model is 'complete' without any need for SUSY theory. What's the point of clinging to a falsified concept?

Pure plasma physics can and does explain all the observations we see from space. There's no need for placeholder terms for human ignorance, it's a "choice".
 
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Michael

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Oh look, they found more missing mass. Apparently our hero Ned Wright has been busy falsifying mainstream dogma for us. :) Dark Matter Halos May Contain Stars - SpaceRef

"Galaxies exist in dark matter halos that are much bigger than the galaxies; when galaxies form and merge together, the dark matter halo gets larger and the stars and gas sink to the middle of the halo," said Wright, who holds UCLA's David Saxon Presidential Chair in Physics. "What we're saying is one star in a thousand does not do that and instead gets distributed like dark matter. You can't see the dark matter very well, but we are proposing that it actually has a few stars in it -- only one-tenth of 1 percent of the number of stars in the bright part of the galaxy. One star in a thousand gets stripped out of the visible galaxy and gets distributed like the dark matter.
"The dark matter halo is not totally dark," Wright said. "A tiny fraction, one-tenth of a percent, of the stars in the central galaxy has been spread out into the halo, and this can produce the fluctuations that we see."


So....


Apparently the galaxies are surrounded, not by exotic matter, but by rather ordinary "plasma clouds" and "stars". :)
 
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Michael

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Hot-gas halo surrounds our Milky Way, scientists say | Space | EarthSky

It's interesting when you put Ned Wright's recent comments about thinly dispersed stars embedded in a "dark matter halo" in context with what we discovered recently about the layout of a large plasma cloud around our galaxy. IMO they're finally on to the right ideas, arranging small stars around the outside of galaxies, and locating the missing plasma around the galaxy, but they still only have half the picture. They continue to ignore the currents that provide a lot of the "variability" that we observe from the plasmas of spacetime. Still, it's progress IMO.

Maybe SUSY theory dying an agonizing, slow and horrible death at LHC wasn't lost on the mainstream afterall? I wonder what's going to happen to Lambda-magic theory when they've located so much 'normal' matter that the abundance of ordinary matter no longer jives with their dogma about the need for exotic matter and all that jazz to explain elemental abundance numbers? Hmmmmmm?
 
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Michael

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Astronomers report that dark matter 'halos' may contain stars, disprove other theories

This article has pretty much the same content about stars in the galaxy halo, but the headline does make you wonder exactly which side of the PC/EU debate Ned Wright is on these days. It just so happens that I agree with Ned on this issue. Now if I could just get Ned to update the contents of his one page that is stuck in 2006, I might be able to turn him from the dark side. :)
 
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Michael

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