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Earlier today you told me photons had zero kinetic energy. That's false.
I told you that photons had zero kinetic energy because they have zero mass. That is true for classical kinetic energy.

Earlier today you stated this delusion that QM in involved with photon relativistic kinetic energy!
Originally Posted by RealityCheck01
Originally Posted by Michael
Thus RC remains ignorant of QM and basic photon physics for all time apparently.​
Thus M remains ignorant of the basic photon physics and that photon energy is a relativistic kinetic energy (special relativity not QM) for all time apparently.

Right, no reason at all....
Right at last! -they gave me no reason.

They have no *rest* mass, but they *always* have kinetic energy! You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
You are lying - read my posts:
  • "photon kinetic energy" is always zero (1/2mv^2!)
  • photon energy though is relativistic and kinetic and depends on wavelength
You are incapable of finding any real errors in Hushko's work.
Still displaying your ignornace. The real error in Hushko's work is that the luminiferous aether does not exist.

Your boastful, egotistical claims about being a big physics hot shot have now been shown to be all full of hot air.
You are lying again - I never claimed to be a "big physics hot shot".
My claim is that I have a good general knowledge of physics (7 years at univeristy + a continued interest).
 
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If that's all you are able to do with a brain, you should contact your parents and ask for a refund. :( Pathetic......to cite an Internet physics crank who is ignorant of a lot of physics and seems to be parroting another Internet physics crank.

There is nothing to look at these web sites - they start with the delustion that the luminiferous aether exists when the experimental evidence is that it does not exist.

One thing that 7 years at university, especially the work on my MSc thesis (try wading through a 100 page review of the state of the art reading every paper that it references!), did was teach me how to recognize cranks. Basically if someone is unable to publish their work in a peer-reviewed journal then that is a big signal that they are a crank.

Translation: You've forgotten everything you actually once knew about math and physics, and you're incapable of even finding a single mathematical flaw in some "crank' paper. Whatever you once knew about photon physics and plasma physics, you've apparently long since forgotten. :( You're now reduced to handwaves and meaningless gibberish. How sad for you.
 
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I told you that photons had zero kinetic energy because they have zero mass.

They don't have zero kinetic energy or zero mass, just zero rest mass! They *always* have kinetic energy! WOW! Whatever you once knew about physics you've apparently long since forgotten.

That is true for classical kinetic energy.
Apparently your understanding of classical physics is about where you stopped in terms of understanding physics. Not everything can be explained by classical physics, and even in classical physics photons carry kinetic energy!

You are lying again - I never claimed to be a "big physics hot shot".
My claim is that I have a good general knowledge of physics (7 years at univeristy + a continued interest).
Your pathetic response to Holushko's impressive work demonstrates that you do *not* have a good general knowledge of physics, and it's likely that you never did. Every physicist (not necessarily every IT guy) I know understands that photons have kinetic energy. Only a retired IT guy would blow something that simple and claim to have a good general knowledge of physics. You have NO good knowledge of physics or photons.
 
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Just in case you did not get how scattering produces blurred images in telescopes here is my explanation again (from now on I will just link to this).
Stars, galxies, plasma, etc. do not give off just 1 photon. They give off photons in all directions. All of these photons will be scattered.

Think about how a telescope collects light from a distant galaxy. Without scattering:
  • It collects all of the light that falls on its mirror.
  • It misses all of the light the does not fall on its mirror, no matter how close that light is to the mirror.
With scattering:
  • It collects all of the light that is not scattered.
  • It collects all of the light that is only scattered a small amount.
  • It collects all of the light would have missed the mirror but has now been scattered onto its mirror.
  • It misses all of the light that has been scattered so that it no longer hits the mirror.
The light from the mirror is then focused to make an image.
Without scattering there is a sharp image.
With scattering, photons enter the telescope at a wider range of angles than without scattering. This blurs the image.

This is basic astronomy 101!
 
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So let's see:
I still have fond memories of a third year math class which had an a simple assignment - show the derivation of a significant part of mathematical physics. I chose spinors and the path that Dirac took in deriving his equation for electrons that needed them. Feynmann diagrams rule! The Wannier representation in QED rules!
All your physics experience, and the that was the best scientific rebuttal you could come up with? Really? Wow! That was pitiful.
You really wrote that? Wow! What a pitiful display of not being able to understand English ;) !

But actually you probably just pasted the wrong text. That comes text from
And yet another delusion :D - that I need QM explained to me! I got QM stuffed into my brain for 7 years at university (3 undergraduate, 4 postgraduate).
I still have fond memories of a third year math class which had an a simple assignment - show the derivation of a significant part of mathematical physics. I chose spinors and the path that Dirac took in deriving his equation for electrons that needed them.
Feynmann diagrams rule!
The Wannier representation in QED rules!
Maybe you just do know know that Dirac's equation is the QM description of an electron?
Or maybe you just do know know that Feynmann diagrams are a basic part quantum field theory?
Not knowing that the Wannier representation is useful in QED is excusable because it is a rather specialized field.

This has nothing to do with the easily understood physics that you have yet to debunk (or seem not to even understand) in Errors in Tired Light Cosmology.
We are still basically on the first point: "There is no known interaction that can degrade a photon's energy without also changing its momentum, which leads to a blurring of distant objects which is not observed. The Compton shift in particular does not work".
And How scattering affects telescopes - it blurs images
 
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This has nothing to do with the easily understood physics that you have yet to debunk (or seem not to even understand) in Errors in Tired Light Cosmology.

I debunked that decade old nonsense even before you got here. You're incapable of even picking any of Holushko's arguments apart like I tore up Ned's nonsense.

We are still basically on the first point: "There is no known interaction that can degrade a photon's energy without also changing its momentum, which leads to a blurring of distant objects which is not observed. The Compton shift in particular does not work".
And How scattering affects telescopes - it blurs images
No, *you personally* are "stuck" because you can't distinguish between a change in kinetic energy, and a change in the direction of the photon. You're oblivious to the kinetic energy in the photon in fact!

You're stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you acknowledge Lerner's work and Holushko's work, all your nonsense and games go up in smoke and you can't be insulting anymore. So long as you simply handwave away the evidence like any YEC handwaves away evidence of evolutionary theory, you have about as much credibility as a YEC in my book. You can't handle a real scientific debate RC. Holushko stumped you in a single paper.
 
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Your pathetic response to Holushko
Your pathetic obsession with Holushk's program based on invalid physics indicates that you cannot understand the physics or even a Wikipedia page:
Luminiferous aether
In the late 19th century, luminiferous aether, æther or ether, meaning light-bearing aether, was the postulated medium for the propagation of light.[1]
Following the negative outcome of aether-drift experiments like the Michelson-Morley experiment, the concept of aether as a mechanical medium having a state of motion lost adherents. It has been replaced in modern physics by the theory of relativity and quantum theory.

Michelson-Morley experiment
The Michelson–Morley experiment was performed in 1887 by Albert Michelson and Edward Morley at what is now Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio.[1] It attempted to detect the relative motion of matter through the stationary luminiferous aether ("aether wind"). The negative results are generally considered to be the first strong evidence against the then prevalent aether theory, and initiated a line of research that eventually led to special relativity, in which the stationary aether concept has no role.[A 1]

And to show that I am not neglecting some actual science:
Aether theories
Aether theories in physics propose the existence of a medium, the aether (also spelled ether, from the Greek word (αἰθήρ), meaning "upper air" or "pure, fresh air"[1]), a space-filling substance or field, thought to be necessary as a transmission medium for the propagation of electromagnetic or gravitational forces. The assorted aether theories embody the various conceptions of this "medium" and "substance". This early modern aether has little in common with the aether of classical elements from which the name was borrowed. Since the development of special relativity, theories using a substantial aether are not used any more in modern physics, and are replaced by more abstract models.[2]
 
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Michael

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Your pathetic obsession with Holushk's program based on invalid physics indicates that you cannot understand the physics or even a Wikipedia page:
Luminiferous aether

Since you refuse to even read the paper, let me clue you in. The "aether" that Holushko is talking about is a very ordinary EM field, not some ancient concept of aether. It's simply the EM fields in space, with ever changing densities in the EM field. There's nothing unusual or exotic about the "aether" that *Holushko* (not talking about any other author) describes. It's simply the fluctuating EM fields in space! Stop being so lazy and go read the paper for goodness sake!

Zero mathematical or physical flaws and counting.
 
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I debunked that decade old nonsense even before you got here.
Then link to an accessible place where you listed the errors in that Errors in Tired Light Cosmology. Or are you just lying?

You're incapable of even picking any of Holushko's arguments apart like I tore up Ned's nonsense.
...usual rant and lies snipped...
Continuing with your ignorance: Luminiferous aether
In the late 19th century, luminiferous aether, æther or ether, meaning light-bearing aether, was the postulated medium for the propagation of light.[1]
Following the negative outcome of aether-drift experiments like the Michelson-Morley experiment, the concept of aether as a mechanical medium having a state of motion lost adherents. It has been replaced in modern physics by the theory of relativity and quantum theory.

But I will comment on a couple of lies packed into one sentence!
"Holushko stumped you in a single paper"
 
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Michael

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Then link to an accessible place where you listed the errors in that Errors in Tired Light Cosmology. Or are you just lying?

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Plasma redshift observed in the lab.

I've provided the link now several times. Did you not see it, or are you just lying?

Continuing with your ignorance: Luminiferous aether

Psst! Read his paper. That's not the kind of "aether" he's talking about!

But I will comment on a couple of lies packed into one sentence!
"Holushko stumped you in a single paper"
  • There is no paper by Holushko.
Pure denial. I handed you that link as well in this thread. If you're too lazy to address it, stop lying and claiming it doesn't exist.



You're debunking a strawman since that isn't the kind of aether that Holushko is describing! Sheesh. Even most IT guys can read!
 
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Since you refuse to even read the paper, let me clue you in. The "aether" that Holushko is talking about is a very ordinary EM field, not some ancient concept of aether.
Then he is even ignorant that I though - an imaginary EM field from unknown sources that is magically indetectable!
And a delusion that you are continuing with - Holushko has no paper - he has a web page and a PDF.

However you have not understood his web page:
Karim Khaidarov suggested redshift mechanism based on the classical idea of interstellar space filled with universally present media – aether that is the carrier of electromagnetic waves (Read more…).
That is ... Luminiferous aether!

But maybe you can quote Holushko stating exactly what you imagine he wrote.
 
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Then he is even ignorant that I though - an imaginary EM field from unknown sources that is magically indetectable!
And a delusion that you are continuing with - Holushko has no paper - he has a web page and a PDF.

However you have not understood his web page:

That is ... Luminiferous aether!

But maybe you can quote Holushko stating exactly what you imagine he wrote.
Expect everything from creationists who want to dismiss mainstream science. Heck! I am surprised they have not brought up Phlogiston yet!:wave::liturgy:
 
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Michael

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Then he is even ignorant that I though - an imaginary EM field from unknown sources that is magically indetectable!

Huh? The source of the EM fields is the plasma and current in space. It's not "undetectable", it's an *ORDINARY EM FIELD*!

And a delusion that you are continuing with - Holushko has no paper - he has a web page and a PDF.
You're incapable of dealing with his work, so you're doing your standard job of denial at all costs.

However you have not understood his web page:

That is ... Luminiferous aether!

No, it's just an EM field and you're incapable of dealing with it, or getting beyond it.

But maybe you can quote Holushko stating exactly what you imagine he wrote.
I provided you with a paper. Deal with it or don't, but don't expect me to translate it for you since you and I don't even speak the same language when it comes to physics. In my world and Kong's world, real photons have real kinetic energy. Only in mythical RC world do photons have no kinetic energy.
 
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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Plasma redshift observed in the lab.

I've provided the link now several times. Did you not see it, or are you just lying?
Are you mad - I have told you a couple of times that I have been banned from that forum. That means that I cannot even read it (they block IP addresses!).
I could get around that by tunneling into my work network and out again. That is known as sock puppetry - a really nasty act.

Psst! Read his paper. That's not the kind of "aether" he's talking about!
Psst. Holushko has no paper - just the web page that I have read and a PDF that I also have read.

Pure denial. I handed you that link as well in this thread.
Pure lying: No stumping: Luminiferous aether does not exist. There is no magical EM field mentioned in his web page. His PDF seems to be the same as the web page.

Are you too lazy to state or even quote where Holushko writes his definition of aether?

You're debunking a strawman since that isn't the kind of aether that Holushko is describing! Sheesh. Even most IT guys can read!
Can you read this:
Karim Khaidarov suggested redshift mechanism based on the classical idea of interstellar space filled with universally present media – aether that is the carrier of electromagnetic waves
 
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Michael

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Here, I copied and pasted the text for you:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/tiredlit.htm

Ya know, after going through every single link that your friend handed you, and looking at what information the objections to plasma redshift are actually based upon, they all point us right back to this single unpublished website by Ned Wright, originally written 1996 and apparently last updated in 1998! Not only is Ned's page hopelessly outdated, apparently the website has *never* been updated, at least not since 2000. Even if we gave Ned the benefit of the doubt that he believed all of his statements were true way back in 1996-2000, none of it is true in 2012. I think since all the mainstream objections come back to this single website from 1996-1999(?), we should look at some of the advancements in plasma redshift that have occurred since then, and delve a bit deeper into Ned's claims in 2012.

There is no known interaction that can degrade a photon's energy without also changing its momentum, which leads to a blurring of distant objects which is not observed. The Compton shift in particular does not work.

First of all, a loss of momentum is called "redshift". It's not *necessarily* the cause of "blurriness". Only a photon *deflection* can actually cause blurriness. Apparently Ned has an incredibly hard time distinguishing between photon redshift (loss of photon momentum), and photon deflection, and he makes no allowances for one without the other. Furthermore, only a very *tiny* deflection, very close to the Earth would result in blurriness. Most of the photons that experience large scattering angles would simply be lost and never reach Earth, particularly such events that occur at great distances from Earth. I'll grant him that Compton redshift by itself probably won't work to explain *all* the redshift we observe, but so what? There are at least three more options to work with *and* Compton redshift. How about Stark redshift Ned? Chen's plasma redshift Ned? How about the Wolf effect Ned? How about various combinations of factors Ned?

It's also *entirely* possible for photons to pass on their kinetic energy to electrons/protons in the direction of the photon's travel path, particularly polarized light and coherent light. As long as the photons pass on their collective energy to the particle in question, in it's direction of travel, no defection of the photons occur, and the loss of momentum/kinetic energy is towards it's original travel path. There's not even any guarantee that every redshift event will result in a deflection of the photon(s)!

Ned's entire argument is actually bogus.

Keep in mind that PC theory predict that a lot of light is lost to the medium. We also have recent evidence that the mainstream *grossly* underestimates the effect of plasmas/dust on light from distant objects:

Astronomers find that Universe shines twice as bright | STFC

The tired light model does not predict the observed time dilation of high redshift supernova light curves. This time dilation is a consequence of the standard interpretation of the redshift: a supernova that takes 20 days to decay will appear to take 40 days to decay when observed at redshift z=1.

No, and there is no observed time dilation. PC/EU theory does correctly predict the observed *signal broadening* and *plasma redshift* features that are observed in supernova data. The feature they explain as time dilation in mainstream theory is a result of signal broadening in plasma redshift theory:

http://vixra.org/pdf/1203.0062v1.pdf
http://plasmaredshift.org/Menu.html
http://lyndonashmore.com/tired_light_ex ... novae_.htm

Ned's website simply ignores all the work that has gone into plasma redshift/tired light theory since the supernova data was released. Apparently Ned intends to leave the reader with the impression that the supernova data was never addressed by tired light/plasma redshift proponents, when in fact it has been addressed by several authors. While his criticism may have held merit in back in 2000, it's clearly false today. Ned *really* needs to update (or take down) his website since his claims are all based upon *ancient* plasma redshift theories, not present, modern day plasma redshift theory. Considering the fact that Ned seems to be the sole mainstream guru on plasma redshift, it's unconscionable that he never updated his website!

The tired light model can not produce a blackbody spectrum for the Cosmic Microwave Background without some incredible coincidences.

This statement is so ridiculous, it's hard to even know where to begin. Let's first discuss the "incredible coincidences" that we must accept to accept mainstream theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_ ... Criticisms

A recurrent criticism of inflation is that the invoked inflation field does not correspond to any known physical field, and that its potential energy curve seems to be an ad hoc contrivance to accommodate almost any data we could get. Paul J. Steinhardt, one of the founding fathers of inflationary cosmology, has recently become one of its sharpest critics. He calls ‘bad inflation’ a period of accelerated expansion whose outcome conflicts with observations, and ‘good inflation’ one compatible with them: “Not only is bad inflation more likely than good inflation, but no inflation is more likely than either. … Roger Penrose considered all the possible configurations of the inflaton and gravitational fields. Some of these configurations lead to inflation … Other configurations lead to a uniform, flat universe directly –without inflation. Obtaining a flat universe is unlikely overall. Penrose’s shocking conclusion, though, was that obtaining a flat universe without inflation is much more likely than with inflation –by a factor of 10 to the googol (10 to the 100) power!”[100]

Talk about incredible coincidences, and we haven't even talked about the fine tuning that goes on with "dark energy' and "dark matter'! 10 to the 100th power? Holy cow! For Ned to even talk about "coincidences' as a reason to dismiss another theory, is utterly and completely *laughable*! Wow! Talk about pot/kettle claims.

http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/Pr ... 2N3ASS.PDF

Secondly, as far back as the first predictions by Guillaume in the mid 1800's and later Eddington around the end of the 1800's, the calculated temperature of 'space' based upon the kinetic effect of starlight on molecules in space was within a single degree of the correct number, 3.18 degrees vs. 2.725 K. Eddington was actually within 1/2 of a degree of the correct number in fact. Early BB models were more than a whole order of magnitude off (over 50 degrees Kelvin), whereas early predictions based on scattering and absorption of starlight were nearly right on the money from the very beginning! No fine tuning was required to get Eddington into the correct ballpark, whereas they need three forms of metaphysics to get to the correct figure in the model. Talk about coincidences and fine tuning! That was probably Ned's most absurd claim on the page!

The tired light model fails the Tolman surface brightness test.

Evidence for a Non-Expanding Universe: Surface Brightness Data From HUDF

Absolutely and completely false. Apparently Ned's page was never updated since the day it was written.

So, there you have it. Ned's page is stuck more than a decade in the past, it's wrong on all four points today, and that is in fact the *primary* reference that astronomers use today to attempt to 'debunk' PC/EU static universe theories. I'd say that is most pitiful excuse for a modern website I've ever seen. I'd be embarrassed as hell to be Ned Wright and have never updated my material in 12 years. Holy cow! If that's the very best "guru' that they have on tired light/plasma redshift theory, the mainstream is in really sad, sad, sad shape. They would not last 5 minutes in an honest and open debate about these claims in 2012.

Keep in mind that four unique forms of plasma redshift have *already* been documented to exist, including Compton redshift, Stark redshift, the Wolf effect, and what Chen et all call 'plasma redshift'. There are potentially several more forms that might exist as well for all I know. Mainstream theory doesn't incorporate *any* amount of plasma redshift into their calculations. The "smoking gun" that kills their theory dead is found in the math formulas they use. They are devoid of any amount of redshift cased by any form of plasma redshift. Is it any wonder then why they need placeholder terms like 'dark energy' for what amounts to human ignorance? They are clearly ignorant of plasma physics, specifically plasma redshift and signal broadening effects in plasma!

The "dirty little secret" in mainstream theory is directly related to it's inability to deal with modern plasma redshift theories in 2012. It can only compete with plasma redshift theory from 1998 apparently, so they remain stuck in the past, they all cite Ned's ancient data, and they all ignore the laws of empirical plasma physics. In the real world of plasma and plasma physics, plasma redshift has been well documented in the lab. Unless the laws of plasma physics in space work differently than they work in the lab, plasma redshift must happen in space. The fact that Lambda-CDM includes *zero* tolerance for plasma redshift explains why must resort to ignoring all the advancements in plasma physics and plasma redshift theory that have occurred since 1998. So long as they simply ignore the advancements in plasma redshift theory for the past decade, it must not exist!
 
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You're incapable of dealing with his work, so you're doing your standard job of denial at all costs.
...snipped repeated unsupported assertions about Holushko & EM fields...
I have dealt with his web page - he defined his aether as an Luminiferous aether.

You need to stop lying about Holushko having a paper. He has a web page and a PDF. He does not have a paper because papers in science are published in journals.
 
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Michael

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Are you mad - I have told you a couple of times that I have been banned from that forum. That means that I cannot even read it (they block IP addresses!).

Ah, poor baby. You really don't expect me to feel sorry for you do you?

I could get around that by tunneling into my work network and out again. That is known as sock puppetry - a really nasty act.
Ya, like nobody ever does that. :)

Psst. Holushko has no paper - just the web page that I have read and a PDF that I also have read.
You've yet to respond intelligently to it.

Pure lying: No stumping: Luminiferous aether does not exist.
EM fields do exist and that's all he needs.

There is no magical EM field mentioned in his web page. His PDF seems to be the same as the web page.
There is nothing magical about ordinary EM fields. Unlike your dark sky deities, EM fields have a real effect on real photons in real experiments with real control mechanisms.

Are you too lazy to state or even quote where Holushko writes his definition of aether?
Yep. If that's all you've got, I'm not going to bother trying to spoon feed you the advancements in physics since your retirement. You don't even have a good handle on basic photon physics and kinetic energy, so what's the point?

Can you read this:
Yep. He's describing the theory of other authors, but all Holushko needs is an ordinary EM field and variations in that field. Nothing new is necessary.
 
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Michael

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I have dealt with his web page - he defined his aether as an Luminiferous aether.

You need to stop lying about Holushko having a paper. He has a web page and a PDF. He does not have a paper because papers in science are published in journals.

You are lying when you claim to have dealt with his paper. You're handwaving at one line in the paper and ignoring every single bit of math in the entire paper! That's not "dealing" with anything, that's pure denial. Then again, that's pretty much par for the course in your case.
 
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Michael

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RC,

How about addressing this question honestly this time.

Since Jesus is revered in both Islam and Christianity and he is the world's most recognized expert on the topic of God, and your beliefs on the topic of God are the minority viewpoint, does that make you a liar, a crackpot and a crank on the topic of God? If not, why not?

PS, can you even read C# or did your IT experience end with punch cards and Cobol?
 
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