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Michael

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"I don't have to make some special connection that you don't have to make."

I showed you a yawning chasm between the Chen paper and what might be possible space (which is largely laser free, I think).

The universe is not free of coherent or polarized light however. You make it sound like the conditions in space or the energy state of the photons must be *exactly* the same in space as they are in the lab to apply. Where did you get that idea? We may need to "scale up" things like say "current" to make up in current what we cannot achieve in distance. It might be necessary to make concessions here and there while "testing".

I'm not saying that there aren't chasms to leap in certain inflationary theories either,
Ya, 10 to the 100th power is quite a chasm alright. :)

but merely claiming that "it's been shown in the lab" and leaving it there is a problem and I can find many examples of you and others doing.
There is no real or serious problem, simply a host of perceived problems in your mind, specifically every hurdle that you can dream up in your head for not accepting the concept. :) At least my ideas do show up in labs on Earth. Maybe they do not work in the lab *exactly* the way want them to, but at least they do show up.

You are claiming an empirical validity to the idea that is unwarranted with what you've presented so far. A tenuously connected paper on the AC Stark effect and a wholly tenuous paper on blazars isn't enough, nor is some non peer-reviewed C# code.
Your cross mixing ideas so let's look at them individually. The C# code makes us "equal" in terms of "explaining" redshift. Holushko doesn't need inflation or dark energy to explain it, just "generic" observations of normal types of plasma redshift. He sites Compton redshift specifically and uses the term "generic" quite specifically in his presentation. He provides a historical perspective on tired light theory going all the way back to Edwin Hubble himself. More importantly however, Holushko "postdicted a fit" (a time honored tradition in physics) to known observation. He then checked his postdicted fit across several spectrum, and checked it against the spectral aging data as well. He handed us the C# code that he used to inspect, to enjoy and to play with at our leisure. What more can we ask for?

I do not need inflation or dark energy to explain what Holushko explains via empirical physics. Unless you have something more convincing than the supernova data to work with, inflation and dark energy are irrelevant and unnecessary.

FYI, If we played by *mainstream* rules, or we were playing on a level playing field, Holushko's C# code by itself is "mathematical evidence" of the existence of plasma redshift/tired light in space. In other words, his postdicted fit to the supernova data is a confirmation of the existence of plasma redshift in space. It essentially documents the process mathematically for us. If we play by mainstream rules, where quantification is king, Holushko just demonstrated evidence of plasma redshift in space, just as you seem to think you have evidence of "dark energy". Of course only one of those actually shows up in the lab.

You do expect me to believe that dark energy is the cause of redshift based upon nothing more than math, and a few software variables that are plugged into a program don't you? You can't even name a source of dark energy, let alone figure out a way to "test" it in controlled experiments on Earth. You keep insisting that a mathematical postdicted fit is evidence of 'dark energy", so why isn't Holushko's postdicted fit of "tired light(plasma redshift)" evidence of "tired light/plasma redshift"? Honestly! Astronomers apply two completely different sets of rules to their own theories than they apply to any other theory under the sun!

Holushko intentionally chose a "generic" tired light/plasma redshift model that is *inclusive*, not exclusive of *all* forms of plasma redshift/tired light. It's an *averaged* formula that may include influences from every single type of plasma redshift observed in the lab to date, and every one that we might discover in the future.

Holushko's work is well 'tested' across the spectrum, and well tested in terms of the spectral aging data. It provides testable *predictions* that are unique to plasma redshift theories, including signal broadening, and including various wavelength delays. This is what *real* physics is all about IMO. Those *predictions* (hey, if you can do it, I can do it) have been "verified" in the lab several times now, and there may be many more to come! What we can test in the lab, does work so far. What more can anyone do at the moment?

If Guth and the inventors of 'dark energy' can claim their maths represent evidence of inflation and dark energy, then Holushko has every right to claim he has produced evidence of plasma redshift. You can't have it both ways. The difference however is that Holushko's model enjoys several forms of plasma redshift confirmations in the lab. That's more than will *ever* occur for inflation or dark energy theory.

I read some of the other papers and there's a few mathematical errors rendering some of them kind of problematic: mostly related to equations that can't be reasonably used as they are or just plain wrong.
You'll have to be more specific for me to comment. I'd rather we begin with Holushko's work since it's my personally favorite at the moment.

I'm not actually commenting yet you'll notice on dark energy theories and I would be happy to have a concerted debate in another pair of thread perhaps, one for dark energy and one for tired light/plasma redshift. I'd be happy to have a fresh canvas to debate this subject with you carefully, point by point. No ad-hominems, nothing emotive, no "invisible deity" or "crank" insults flown out, just the science in its factual form presented clearly. I'd be happy to defend the expanding universe theories.

I'm on vacation as of tonight for 10 days - but after would be fun.
That sounds great. When you get back, start at new thread with a new title of something like "Lambda-CDM vs Plasma Cosmology theory" or something like that, and we'll have some fun. I'll try to lay off the insulting language, but I may appeal to your desire for empirical support for God when explaining why I prefer PC theory over Lambda-CDM.
 
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World's most powerful digital camera opens eye, records first images in hunt for dark energy

Not a single astronomer knows where dark energy comes from, let alone has any clue how to control it, but that never stops them from making absolutely absurd and ridiculous claims about the capabilities of their new toys. :(
A bit of ignorance there Michael :doh:: Scientists know from previous observations of dark energy what the properties of dark energy are: Wikipedia: Dark energy
Independently from its actual nature, dark energy would need to have a strong negative pressure (acting repulsively) in order to explain the observed acceleration in the expansion rate of the universe.

Not knowing where it comes from does not stop them from studying it!
No one knows exactly where life come from but there is this thing called biology!
 
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We are in agreement then, I don't "see" evidence for dark matter either, ...
Then you cannot "see" the Wikipedia article on dark matter and its observational evidence?

Or is this the "we cannot detect it in the lab so it does not exist" position that leads to the planets , stars, galaxies, etc. do not exist delusion :)?
 
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There is no such thing as "dark energy", ...
The cause of the observed acceleration in the expansion of the universe (or if you want the observed deviating from Hubble's law) is called dark energy. So you are wrong - there is such a thing as dark energy.

The simplest explanation for dark energy is a non-zero cosmological constant in GR.

Why are you obsessing about a name? It is a camera. It will be used to take images of the universe. Those images will be used to investigate Dark Energy. So it is a "Dark Energy Camera".
 
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Had there not been *at least* three types of plasma redshift found since Hubble first wrote about the possibility,...
Yes that have been some types of "redshift" that happen in plasma. Astronomers know about then. These are all scattering and cannot explain cosmological redshift.
 
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Lasers in space inducing much redshift that you can see? I'm not opposed to anything that might make sense, but this paper requires a laser to induce the AC stark effect - the precise mechanism suggested in this paper is unlikely to have a cosmological implication unless we're talking Star Trek....
What is more important is the fcat that the plasmas in the paper have nothging to do with astronomical plasms: the lab work involved large electron densities -- 10^18 e/cm^3 and low temperatures.
Intergalactic space has a particle density is about one atom per cubic meter (10^-6 per cm^3) and high temperatures.
This is twenty-four (!!) orders of magnitude difference in particle density and three or four orders of magnitude difference in temperature.
The paper even confirms that the redshift depends on electron density!

The idiocy of thinking that this redshift in a laboratory plasma will happen in a astronomical plasma is obvious.

C.S.Chen et al. “Investigation of the mechanism of spectral emission and redshifts of atomic line in laser-induced plasmas”. Optik
120 (2009) 473-478
 
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including Compton redshift, the Wolf effect, Stark redshift, what Chen et all call "plasma redshift", and the movement of objects.....
You are wrong:
For a start "Compton redshift" is actually called Compton scattering or the Compton effect.
The Compton effect cannot cause cosmological redshift:
The Compton Effect as an Explanation for the Cosmological Redshift.
Anything with a significant redshift due to the Compton Effect would have significant blurring since it would be scattered from off-line of sight (the Compton Effect is dependent on scattering of photons).
-Compton Effect predicts z proportional to 1/wavelength whereas the cosmological redshift shows no such dependence.

You have provided no evidence that the Wolf effect can cause cosmological redshift.

You have provided no evidence that the Stark effect can cause cosmological redshift.

And it is insane to think that the conditions in the Chen experiment exist in intergalactic plasmas.

The "movement of objects" is the Doppler effect and well known by astronomers. The specific effect that this has on cosmological redshifts is that astronomers have to take in account the peculiar velocities of galaxies. And they do.

*not a single one of the five known empirical causes of redshift* can have any significant effect on photons in space.
*Four of the five known empirical causes of redshift* do have a "significant effect on photons in space". These effects rule them out as causes of cosmological redshift.
 
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Michael

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A bit of ignorance there Michael :doh:: Scientists know from previous observations of dark energy what the properties of dark energy are: Wikipedia: Dark energy

Hi RC! Got bored and decided to try your hand at cyberstalking are you? :) I notice you're already relying upon your tried and true crutch of using loaded terms like ignorance. Speaking of ignorance:

Dark energy is an "ad hoc" construct. All the properties assigned to it are directly related to the fact that the universe isn't moving, and you folks never accounted for any amount of plasma redshift, not even a tiny little bit. That's why nobody knows where it comes from, nor how to control it and it's why it doesn't show up in the lab. It's gap filler of truly *epic* proportions to cover up your mistakes related to plasma redshift.

Not knowing where it comes from does not stop them from studying it!

Holoshko's work, along with the work of Chen, Wolf and others, we have conclusive proof that you left out an important feature of plasma physics from your formulas.

No one knows exactly where life come from but there is this thing called biology!

It's called God RC. ;)
 
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Then of course there's the ultimate supporter of PC theory:

Hannes Alfvén - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
And then a complete lie .
Hannes Alfven created a cosmological theory called Plasma Cosmology. It was shown to be invalid (none of the required x-ray emissions, could not explain the CMBR).
Plasma Cosmology is not plasma cosmology (note the lower case) which is not even defined as a scientific model - just a bunch of mutually exclusive, often invalid theories picked from the unknown criteria of pc proponents.
 
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No, this particular thread is devoted to complaining about the fact that the mainstream has never justified *any* of their irrational claims about space expansion, inflation, dark energy or dark matter.
This thread is actually about you screaming about your fantasy that the mainstream has never justified *any* of their irrational claims about space expansion, inflation, dark energy or dark matter.

There are no irrational claims.
There is no "justification" needed.

There is evidence for
  • space expansion
  • inflation
  • dark energy and
  • dark matter
There is your irratonal demand that these be detected in labs here on Earth which as insanly wriong because only dark matter has a chnace of being detceted:
  • Gravity means that space expansion can only bedetatect on scales of millions of lightyears.
  • infation is over! But we can confiorm it because infaltionary theory makes testable, falasifiable predicitons that have been shown to be correct.
  • dark energy - too weak.
That irrational demand then leads to the nothing exists delusion:
  • No planets in labs - planets do not exist!
  • No stars in labs - stars do not exist!
  • No exoplanets in labs -exoplanets do not exist!
  • No galaxies in labs -galaxies do not exist!
 
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I'm simply pointing out the irrational nature of claiming to have built a "dark energy camera".
You are just obsessing with the name that has been given to the instrument: Dark Energy Camera.
It is a camera. The images it take will be analyzed to investigate dark energy. So the name is appropriate.
 
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www(dot)sjcrothers(dot)plasmaresources(dot)com/Schwarzschild2.pdf
Oh dear - another crank cited!
S.J. Crothers is infamous for his really bad understanding of GR.
And citing a web page - where are your citaitons to his peer-reviewed papers in a credible journal (not the one he is (was?) an editor of!)
 
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Scientist says neutron stars, not black holes, at center of galaxies
Oh dear: you cite a 2005 news article on a paper by Oliver Manuel who has the crazy idea that there is a neutron star at the center of the Sun!
This is just another example of his obsession with neutron stars.

Sagittarius A* is 4.1 million solar masses packed into a volume less than the orbit or Mercury. There is no known physics that allows it to be a neutron star.

...nice little explanation of the decay of neutrons in free space ...
And you ignore the fact that a neutron star is not free space!
The strong force and gravity holds the neutrons together - thus the simple description is as a giant nucleus that pops up sometimes.
 
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I was shocked actually. I thought that science forums were more open minded and appreciated honest debate.
You would be wrong. Science expects people to produce evidence, not just continuously parrot unsupported assertions like "plasma redshift did it". Science forums tend to expect the same quality of evidence.
 
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Michael

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RC said:
Ignorance...delusion....idiocy...lying...insane...ignorance ignorance delusions crank cranks, yada, yada, yada

Holy Cow RC! In just the first 6 posts you've resorted to more loaded and pointless language, more personal attacks and more debasing of the thread than anyone has done in weeks worth of conversations on this topic! Proud of yourself? At the rate your going in terms of personalizing the conversation, I doubt you'll last any longer here than you did at Thunderbolts. You're a one trick personal attack pony RC. Yawn. What you can't demonstrate in the lab, you try to make up for with personal attacks. You're like the atheistic flipside of a fundy theist that has to attack the individual and call them "crazy", 'insane" and "evil" in post after points after countless post. Your attitude typifies everything that is wrong with astronomy today.
 
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You completely misunderstand the concept of "scattering". Scattering will *almost always* simply result in a the loss of that photon.I t's not going to ever reach Earth. Scattering isn't necessarily directly related to blurriness in all cases.
You also completely misunderstand the concept of scattering. Scattering is directly related to blurriness in all cases.
  • With no scattering, photons arrive at telescope in parallel paths and get focused to a sharp point.
  • With scattering, photons arrive at telescope in slightly different paths paths and get focused to a less sharp (diffuse) point.
Astronomers look at a distant galaxy, e.g. 13 billion light years away, in our universe and get a focused image.


Astronomers look at a distant galaxy, e.g. 13 billion light years away, in a "plasma redshift" universe and get an unfocused image.

So which universe are you living in Michael?
 
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Michael

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Thank you, Michael, for showing that Ashmore is an idiot since he did not pick up that the electron densities in Chen's work are 10^24 times greater than in intergalactic plasma :D !

There you go attacking the individual already with personal assaults. How about the distance aspects RC? Going to just ignore that are you? How predictable your behaviors. You think you can "debunk" idea by bullying everyone. Your behaviors are irresponsible, reckless, and a perfect example of why astronomy is still stuck in the dark ages and can't even name a source of dark energy after 14 years!
 
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There you go attacking the individual already with personal assaults.
Yes - Ashmore showedd that he could not understand the electron densities in Chen's work are 10^24 times greater than in intergalactic plasma.
This marked Ashmore as an idiot so I called him an idiot.

What do you want me to call someone who is that dumb?
 
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