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7-Day Creation- Figurative or Literal?

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CabVet said:
No, it is not. It is a straw man.

Really? Isn't that the evolutionary process? Getting more and more complex from the first cell? Or are you changing definitions? ;)

There are thousands of transitional fossils, you have to be a bit more specific. Just "any" transitional? If that's the case, here is a transitional between lemurs and monkeys, 47 million years old:

Same kind of animal, wouldn't you say? Still looking at micro-evolution aren't we?
 
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Loudmouth said:
That is a mischaracterization of the actual science.

The wiki page has plenty of pics and a ton of references for the actual fossils:

Evolution of the horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you really think that these drawings are just made up?

This site also has some good pics of fossils:

Fossil Horses in Cyberspace Exhibit Menu

Yeah, some very much are. Kind of like when scientists used artist renderings to show things like piltdown man were a missing link, based on a couple of shards of bone found yards away from each other.
 
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Same kind of animal, wouldn't you say? Still looking at micro-evolution aren't we?

Can you stop using buzzwords? It's been shown on this very forum that "kind" has no definition. It's just a word used to arbitrarily reject any evidence of speciation creationists don't like.
 
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Guy1 said:
Can you stop using buzzwords? It's been shown on this very forum that "kind" has no definition. It's just a word used to arbitrarily reject any evidence of speciation creationists don't like.

Why wouldn't I like the evolution of lemurs and monkeys? Pretty close to the same animal aren't they?
 
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Same kind of animal, wouldn't you say? Still looking at micro-evolution aren't we?


Exactly! I agree that "macro-evolution," as Creationists define it, is absurd. Only "micro-evolution" exists.

However, once you agree that speciation has been observed, then "micro-evolution" is all you need for anything included in the Evolutionary Model. If there is no barrier to speciation, there is no "kind" barrier at all.

Macro-evolution as briefly used by evolutionary scientists before the word was co-opted by Creationists, was simply a short-hand way of discussing the large-scale differences (a result of many, many generations' accumulation of smaller changes) seen when discussing evolution on taxonomic levels above species.
 
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OllieFranz said:
Exactly! I agree that "macro-evolution," as Creationists define it, is absurd. Only "micro-evolution" exists.

However, once you agree that speciation has been observed, then "micro-evolution" is all you need for anything included in the Evolutionary Model. If there is no barrier to speciation, there is no "kind" barrier at all.
That barrier is in the genetic information of the animal. You can breed every known type of rabbit from now till eternity, and you'll never get anything but a rabbit, and certainly nothing like a horse or a dog. Other than that, you and I agree 100%.
OllieFranz said:
Macro-evolution as briefly used by evolutionary scientists before the word was co-opted by Creationists, was simply a short-hand way of discussing the large-scale differences (a result of many, many generations' accumulation of smaller changes) seen when discussing evolution on taxonomic levels above species.

I don't follow...how is our use of the same word co-opting it? Like I said, when it comes to Micro, only a blithering idiot would say it doesn't happen. But like I said, you can't get from one cell that magicked its way into existence to everything else alive today.
 
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Guy1 said:
They share a common ancestor, so we expect there to be similarities that fall into a nested hierarchy.

Well gee, now you're getting closer to "kinds" aren't you! They very well might be offshoots of the primate kind from the ark right?
 
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OllieFranz

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That barrier is in the genetic information of the animal. You can breed every known type of rabbit from now till eternity, and you'll never get anything but a rabbit, and certainly nothing like a horse or a dog. Other than that, you and I agree 100%.

Thank you for providing yet another example of the absurdity that is the Creationists' definition of "macro-evolution."

Of course you won't get anything like a horse or a dog. The populations that produced those genes split off from the populations that produced rabbit genes generations ago, and the gene pools today are different.

But, if something kills off all the dogs, without destroying the environments that dogs are adapted for, a population of a different animal -- probably not rabbits, but wolverines would not be a bad choice -- would adapt to fill the missing ecological niche, eventually separating from the mother population and producing a new species.

Kangaroos are not deer, but they evolved to fill the same niche in Australia, where the placental mammals never colonized until brought there by Man.

I don't follow...how is our use of the same word co-opting it? Like I said, when it comes to Micro, only a blithering idiot would say it doesn't happen. But like I said, you can't get from one cell that magicked its way into existence to everything else alive today.

During the brief time that they used the words "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution," evolutionary scientists simply used them as shorthand to discuss small variations within species and large variations at higher taxonomic levels. It was understood that these larger variations were simply accumlations of smaller ones collected over large periods of time. Neither word had any limiting meaning on the evolutionary model.

When Creationists started using the same words to mean something else (First "micro-" meant "within species evolution, which can't be denied," and "macro-" meant "speciation which we don't believe happens," and later, after speciation was demonstrated, "all evolution which cannot be denied," and "any evolution I don't want to believe in"), the evolutionary scientists stopped using the words altogether. That's what I mean by the words were co-opted by the Creationists.
 
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OllieFranz said:
Thank you for providing yet another example of the absurdity that is the Creationists' definition of "macro-evolution."
No, its not absurd, unless you agree that macro-evolution is in fact absurd. According to evolutionists, all life came from a single cell that got more complex and gained information right? So then why now is every living thing losing information? What possible mechanism gave rise to everything on the planet, and then suddenly switched off? No matter what is put forth it is always a decrees of information, whether its natural selection, speciation, mutation, genetic drift, its all a loss of information or a scrambling of some part of existing information. There is no increase, so how did that first cell increase in information?
 
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That barrier is in the genetic information of the animal. You can breed every known type of rabbit from now till eternity, and you'll never get anything but a rabbit, and certainly nothing like a horse or a dog. Other than that, you and I agree 100%.

Macroevolution would the the production of a new species of rabbit. Macroevolution will not change one living species into another living species (e.g. rabbit into dog).

We are a primates. Macaques are primates. Our common ancestor was a primate. Does this mean that humans evolving from that common ancestor is just microevolution since I can call all of the species "primates"?

Is your definition of macroevolution nothing more than a name game?

I don't follow...how is our use of the same word co-opting it? Like I said, when it comes to Micro, only a blithering idiot would say it doesn't happen. But like I said, you can't get from one cell that magicked its way into existence to everything else alive today.

Show me one difference between the DNA of chimps and humans that could not have been produced by microevolution.
 
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Well gee, now you're getting closer to "kinds" aren't you! They very well might be offshoots of the primate kind from the ark right?

You're not really saying much here. Unless you can give a rigorous, testable definition of "kind", you might as well not bother using it. If you don't believe creationism has any basis in science, you can just go ahead and ignore my demand.
 
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Loudmouth said:
Macroevolution would the the production of a new species of rabbit. Macroevolution will not change one living species into another living species (e.g. rabbit into dog).
It would still be a rabbit yes? Then your macro-evolution definition is a fail.
Loudmouth said:
We are a primates. Macaques are primates. Our common ancestor was a primate. Does this mean that humans evolving from that common ancestor is just microevolution since I can call all of the species "primates"?


We are listed as primates by our current standard of classification. However the fact that we are created in God's image precludes us from that classification, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. ;)
Loudmouth said:
Is your definition of macroevolution nothing more than a name game?

Show me one difference between the DNA of chimps and humans that could not have been produced by microevolution.

http://creation.mobi/article/4327/
 
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Guy1 said:
You're not really saying much here. Unless you can give a rigorous, testable definition of "kind", you might as well not bother using it. If you don't believe creationism has any basis in science, you can just go ahead and ignore my demand.

Once science drops the "naturalistic only" trend its in (at least in terms of evolution) then we may have a scientist who can define kinds from the biblical starting point. Until then, anyone who even attempted it would likely be ostracized and black listed.
 
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Once science drops the "naturalistic only" trend its in (at least in terms of evolution) then we may have a scientist who can define kinds from the biblical starting point. Until then, anyone who even attempted it would likely be ostracized and black listed.

If God is a part of creating nature then God is part of naturalism. "Naturalistic only" includes actions of deities that change things in nature.
 
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OllieFranz

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No, its not absurd, unless you agree that macro-evolution is in fact absurd.

Yes I do agree that what you and other Creationists describe when you use the term "macro-evolution" is absurd. I agree with you that it does not and can not happen that way. But my agreement is moot. The Evolutionary Model does not make any comparable claim, and in fact it points out the absurdity of those claims. Where we disagree is that you believe the lie propagated by professional Creationist apologists tha the ToE endorses this absurdity.

According to evolutionists, all life came from a single cell that got more complex and gained information right? So then why now is every living thing losing information?

Short answer: they're not.

Longer answer, truncation and generation of "junk" DNA are only two of the possible mutations that can happen to a gene. A DNA strand can also mutate in exactly the same way as when it produces "junk" DNA (For example a guanine is replaced by an adenine) and the result be a functioning allele of the previous gene that never existed before. Or a mutation in a "junk" area can produce a whole new gene. A section of DNA can duplicate and begin carrying more positions -- similar to my username mutating to OlliellieFranz -- and become capable of carrying more code) All of these increase the information or potential information the DNA carries. It doesn't happen with every mutation. Some do lose information, others -- most in fact -- have no net effect on the amount of information carried.

What possible mechanism gave rise to everything on the planet, and then suddenly switched off?

It didn't "switch off." It is still operating. See the paragraph above.

No matter what is put forth it is always a decrees of information, whether its natural selection, speciation, mutation, genetic drift, its all a loss of information or a scrambling of some part of existing information.

You are operating under an unfounded, and indeed false assumption. Information is not always lost.

There is no increase, so how did that first cell increase in information?

See above.
 
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Loudmouth said:
If God is a part of creating nature then God is part of naturalism. "Naturalistic only" includes actions of deities that change things in nature.

Except that God created that nature. I'm talking about the idea that if it didn't create itself, then its ignored. As it stands now, because of these blinders placed on the scientific community, things like what may constitute a kind are ignored. There may well be a host of insights and knowledge to be gained by studying this, yet it sits untouched for fear of being shut down, and any grants you may have revoked or not renewed. It's sad really...
 
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Except that God created that nature.

Therefore, God is a part of nature and can be investigated by science.

I'm talking about the idea that if it didn't create itself, then its ignored. As it stands now, because of these blinders placed on the scientific community, things like what may constitute a kind are ignored.

You would need a working concept before you can claim it is being ignored. You can hardly blame science for ignoring something that doesn't exist.

There may well be a host of insights and knowledge to be gained by studying this, yet it sits untouched for fear of being shut down, and any grants you may have revoked or not renewed. It's sad really...

Are you insane? Do you know how much money creationist organizations have? The Discovery Institute brings in about 5 million a year. AiG built the Creationist Museum for around 27 million, and they are currently trying to build that Noah's Ark park for around 70 million. There is no shortage of funds for creationist research. You have no one to blame but creationists themselves.

I'm sorry, but if you are going to play the Rosa Parks card you actually have to get on the bus. You can't pretend that you will be ignored and claim it is the same as really being ignored. That is a really, really pathetic argument you are pushing.
 
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