What's with all the conspiracy theories?

[cow451]

Ah. Got it.

I saw it on YouTube. It must be true. They wouldn't let them put it there if it weren't.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Just FYI, when looking up an article for another forum on which I participate, I thought of this thread after reading the first paragraph.

Do American Indians also have such good reason to fabricate stories to protect the US government that they throw in false little details into seemingly unrelated stories?

The Mohawks Who Built Manhattan > The History Channel Club

What a great read.

I'm part Cherokee (kinda who I chose what I did for my CF name!) so I love hearing about Indians. And I'm a Star Wars fan...the "skywalker" thing, I love it!

 

[Nekoda]

Curious as to how many you think died.

I only speculate that it was less than we were told - as there are multiple indicators that some of the victims weren't even real. Some of those indicators include:

- Lack of SSDI entries

- Obvious photo shops (example "Elizabeth Wainio" bottle photo(shadows don't match) and wall photo showing exact same expression with existing and non existing glasses in background)

- many of the photos submitted by "families" showing exact same expression of victim on 2 supposedly different shots

- Multiple horrendous photos submitted by "families" that no relative in their right mind would submit for a memorial in the
national/international spotlight.

- Photos of identical people listed as different people

- Mismatches of names to faces via different memorial sites (and staying that way for multiple years absent any family correction)

I have wondered, when I see similar claims; e.g., that the victims were all falsified/composite photographs, etc., how those who want this to be the case therefore explain the logistics of how such a ruse is pulled off.

There are some that say that. I don't. I haven't reached a conclusion and leave the matter as a curious oddity rather than making a statement like that. I do believe some of the victims were faked. I don't say that no-one died though.

For example--I live in New Jersey, where about 700 of the WTC dead also lived. You are aware of the book, Middletown USA, about the community of that name that lost, I think, 37 residents on 9/11, more than any other NJ town. They have a most beautiful memorial adjacent to their train station with the photos and names engraved on granite stones, and a lovely walk through a wooded parklike area. Other towns have their memorials, whether or not they lost people--and there is no way you can be missing those nearly-daily news items as the steel program gives out pieces of the WTC steel that was held in Hangar 17 to municipalities all over the country and the world--but those local towns that did lose people generally have the names of their dead posted somewhere on their memorial.

My question therefore is: Don't you think that if all of these people were not real, people in these localities would have noticed this by now? Maybe when they contact the family to participate in the dedication of a memorial or in the annual remembrance ceremonies and find they never existed? Or when people in general converse and realize that no one ever knew of/heard of such a person? It would be very difficult to pull this off.

I didn't say they "all" weren't real. I simply don't know, but I suspect many were faked. For example - look up "Honor Elizabeth Wainio". There are scores of web pages and articles written in her honor. According to the website bearing her name - she graduated High School in 1991 - yet on that School's website the only entry for a Elizabeth Wainio is from the class of 1992. Don't you think that after nearly 11 years that little detail would have been corrected by friends/family? Why hasn't it? And why did CNN remove Ms Wainio's picture from their memorial list - and why has it stayed off that list for a number of years with no family complaints on the matter?

And what about all the annual events held in the names of so many of the dead? A scholarship fundraiser held at Monmouth Race Track every September, golf outings, dinners, etc? Do you think all these people would show up if they hadn't actually known the person(s) who had died?

Yes, I believe many people would attend such memorials and give to fundraisers out of empathy for the tragedy they believe happened to 3000 people and associated families.

 

[Btodd]

I only speculate that it was less than we were told - as there are multiple indicators that some of the victims weren't even real. Some of those indicators include:

- Lack of SSDI entries

Whoops! From the wikipedia entry:

"For most years since 1973, the SSDI includes 93 percent to 96 percent of deaths of individuals aged 65 or older."

And I like the fact that you would not answer that a multitude of videos, from multiple angles, and some on shaky camcorders, were 'all CGI'. Not that I expected anything more.

I work in the oil & gas industry, chaining ownership of minerals and surface rights. You would be surprised how many people drop off the face of the earth who aren't listed on any official index. It happens constantly. Of course, for some...that would be evidence that at least 20+ videos of an event, and the loss of a loved one's life, were all an elaborate hoax perpetrated by the evil government, with no positive evidence to back it up, instead of merely being blind reactionary doubt disguised as honest skepticism...but for others, who are 'thinkers', as you postured yourself as being...reality has to enter the picture eventually. I await your answer on all of the videos I linked you to. Thanks.


Btodd

 

[Nekoda]

Someone do a count of how many 'CGI' clips there are in this video, from multiple angles, even on some shaky camcorders. It's amazing what the government can accomplish, eh?

2012 9/11 WTC SOUTH TOWER HIT PART 2 - YouTube


Btodd

I'm not sure what posting a video of multiple CGI planes from different angles is going to prove.

You're convinced they are real - simply because of the different angles?

You *are* aware that nearly all the so called "amateur shots" that were shown on MSM shortly after the event (within days and weeks) were from professional photo touch up/animation people?

Does that not ring any alarm bells in your world??

[FONT=Sylfaen,Trebuchet MS,Helvetica,Arial]ALLEGED AUTHORS OF 9/11 “AMATEUR” SHOTS (on public record):

DEVIN CLARK
computer graphics animator. Clients: Comedy Central, MTV, TCM and HBO.

EVAN FAIRBANKS
On 9/11, worked for KSK VIDEO STUDIOS, New York City: “Creative programming solutions for television, interactive and multimedia.” Photographer with world renowned Magnum agency.

LUC COURCHESNE
3D visual arts expert. Inventor of “Panoscope360”, a sophisticated 3-D installation which simulates “alternative life experiences”.

SCOTT MYERS
ABC TV video technician. 3-D motion expert and software designer. Clients: ABC and US NAVY.

CLIFTON CLOUD
Events manager at Scharff Weisberg, Inc., a NYC-based video production company, whose slogan reads: “Whether you're looking to dazzle the ears, mind or eyes, we've got the latest equipment and the expertise to make it work for you.”

JENNIFER SPELL
Director/founder with “SPELLBOUND” pictures. Independent television producer.

NAUDET BROTHERS JULES AND GEDEON
Emmy award-winning filmmakers. Caught 1st and 2nd ‘airplanes’ and 'WTC7 ‘collapse’ on film.

NAKA NATHANIEL
Multimedia journalist at New York Times. Specializes in ‘desktop virtual news.’ Embedded with US military in war zones.

KELLY GUENTHER
Pulitzer Prize winning photo-journalist whose work has appeared in The New York Times, Time, Newsweek.

GULNARA SAMOILOVA
Worked for 9 years as ‘photo retoucher’ (in her own words) for the Associated Press. Award winning 9/11 photographer.

THOMAS NILSSON
Swedish photojournalist in New York City. Works for Norwegian populistic tabloid VG.

ROBERT CLARK
National Geographic photographer based in New York City. Works with the world's leading magazines including Time, Sports Illustrated, French Geo, Vanity Fair, Stern, Der Spiegel.

MOSHE BURSUKER
BFA degree in sculpture and photography from the Hartford Art School at the University of Hartford.

SEAN ADAIR
Founder of ADAIR film & Video productions. Consultant in digital media and visual effects.

ROB HOWARD
Professional award-winning photographer.

KATHY CACICEDO
Professional photographer.

DAVID HANDSCHUH
Photojournalist for New York Daily News. Took picture of South Tower exploding right underneath it. No plane is seen in picture. He says he did not see any plane. [/FONT]

 

[Btodd]

I'm not sure what posting a video of multiple CGI planes from different angles is going to prove.

You're convinced they are real - simply because of the different angles?

You *are* aware that nearly all the so called "amateur shots" that were shown on MSM shortly after the event (within days and weeks) were from professional photo touch up/animation people?

Does that not ring any alarm bells in your world??

I love how you can simply hand-wave all of them away as 'CGI' (a circular claim, you already labeled it as such when referencing it), without offering any positive evidence whatsoever that they're CGI. Present it, please. Your perpetual doubt, and absurd 'anything goes' postulations are not evidence. I'll wait.


Btodd

 

[Btodd]

Just like your reference to the SSDI index...you skip over uncomfortable details, and expect us all to go along for the ride. No questions asked. Who's really 'just believing what they're told'?


Btodd

 

[Nekoda]

Whoops! From the wikipedia entry:

"For most years since 1973, the SSDI includes 93 percent to 96 percent of deaths of individuals aged 65 or older."

If this is proof to you of something I don't know what to say. Small wonder that the chances of dying increase exponentially when one gets older? I didn't know this was news to anyone.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I was going to respond, but I'm not going to. This is just silly and I can find better things to do with my time (like finishing Saints Row the Third). I'm not sure what drives a person to live in such a fantasy world, but I am sure that nothing I say will make a difference.

-Dan.

 

[Nekoda]

I was going to respond, but I'm not going to. This is just silly and I can find better things to do with my time (like finishing Saints Row the Third). I'm not sure what drives a person to live in such a fantasy world, but I am sure that nothing I say will make a difference.

-Dan.

To those being manipulated by Mass Media, reality can indeed seem like a fantasy. See ya, Dan. Careful with the red white and blue blindfold, because if you take it off, you might catch Uncle Sam behind you with his pants down, sweating and whispering into your ear.

 

[Btodd]

If this is proof to you of something I don't know what to say. Small wonder that the chances of dying increase exponentially when one gets older? I didn't know this was news to anyone.

It shows that your reliance on the SSDI as an arbiter of someone's existence is pure silliness. As I told you, I deal with trying to locate records of dead people all the time...but I don't go around concluding that they never existed, and were made up in a virtual fantasy world as a conclusion.

But you can. Let me know when you get positive evidence of CGI, other than merely asserting that it's in everything we look at, and expect us to 'just believe what you tell us'.


Btodd

 

[IanCG]

To those being manipulated by Mass Media, reality can indeed seem like a fantasy. See ya, Dan. Careful with the red white and blue blindfold, because if you take it off, you might catch Uncle Sam behind you with his pants down, sweating and whispering into your ear.

You need help.

 

[Nekoda]

You need help.

Maybe like this guy eh?

https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...arine_arrested_incarcerated_in_psych_ward_det

Do you enjoy living in an ever increasing Nazi America? 911 is the root of it, just like Hitler's Reichstag fire was for Germany.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I only speculate that it was less than we were told - as there are multiple indicators that some of the victims weren't even real. Some of those indicators include:

- Lack of SSDI entries

- Obvious photo shops (example "Elizabeth Wainio" bottle photo(shadows don't match) and wall photo showing exact same expression with existing and non existing glasses in background)

- many of the photos submitted by "families" showing exact same expression of victim on 2 supposedly different shots

- Multiple horrendous photos submitted by "families" that no relative in their right mind would submit for a memorial in the
national/international spotlight.

- Photos of identical people listed as different people

- Mismatches of names to faces via different memorial sites (and staying that way for multiple years absent any family correction)



There are some that say that. I don't. I haven't reached a conclusion and leave the matter as a curious oddity rather than making a statement like that. I do believe some of the victims were faked. I don't say that no-one died though.



I didn't say they "all" weren't real. I simply don't know, but I suspect many were faked. For example - look up "Honor Elizabeth Wainio". There are scores of web pages and articles written in her honor. According to the website bearing her name - she graduated High School in 1991 - yet on that School's website the only entry for a Elizabeth Wainio is from the class of 1992. Don't you think that after nearly 11 years that little detail would have been corrected by friends/family? Why hasn't it? And why did CNN remove Ms Wainio's picture from their memorial list - and why has it stayed off that list for a number of years with no family complaints on the matter?




Yes, I believe many people would attend such memorials and give to fundraisers out of empathy for the tragedy they believe happened to 3000 people and associated families.

What would be the point of faking just some deaths? Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[cow451]

Maybe like this guy eh?

https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...arine_arrested_incarcerated_in_psych_ward_det

Do you enjoy living in an ever increasing Nazi America? 911 is the root of it, just like Hitler's Reichstag fire was for Germany.

Which has nothing to do with anything here, except for those that like red herrings.

 

[Trainlady]

I only speculate that it was less than we were told - as there are multiple indicators that some of the victims weren't even real. Some of those indicators include:

- Lack of SSDI entries

- Obvious photo shops (example "Elizabeth Wainio" bottle photo(shadows don't match) and wall photo showing exact same expression with existing and non existing glasses in background)

- many of the photos submitted by "families" showing exact same expression of victim on 2 supposedly different shots

- Multiple horrendous photos submitted by "families" that no relative in their right mind would submit for a memorial in the
national/international spotlight.

- Photos of identical people listed as different people

- Mismatches of names to faces via different memorial sites (and staying that way for multiple years absent any family correction)



There are some that say that. I don't. I haven't reached a conclusion and leave the matter as a curious oddity rather than making a statement like that. I do believe some of the victims were faked. I don't say that no-one died though.



I didn't say they "all" weren't real. I simply don't know, but I suspect many were faked. For example - look up "Honor Elizabeth Wainio". There are scores of web pages and articles written in her honor. According to the website bearing her name - she graduated High School in 1991 - yet on that School's website the only entry for a Elizabeth Wainio is from the class of 1992. Don't you think that after nearly 11 years that little detail would have been corrected by friends/family? Why hasn't it? And why did CNN remove Ms Wainio's picture from their memorial list - and why has it stayed off that list for a number of years with no family complaints on the matter?




Yes, I believe many people would attend such memorials and give to fundraisers out of empathy for the tragedy they believe happened to 3000 people and associated families.

It seems to me that a big problem is that you rely so much on the Internet being more accurate a source than it might be.

A long-time coworker by the name of Deborah (Debbie) Merrick lived in upper Manhattan and worked in one of our Jersey City offices. She was in charge of the petty cash fund, and the bank that held the petty cash fund was in the Concourse of the WTC. On 9/11, she took the train down to the WTC on the way to work to stop at the bank. She was in the lobby of building One when AA11 hit it. She was caught in the fireball of burning jet fuel that came down the cattle-car elevators shafts and shot through the lobby and out into the Concourse. She was taken to Cornell's burn unit along with the other burn victims and put into a drug-induced coma. She survived until late October, when she died of cardiac arrest. (I believe only six people came out of Cornell alive.)

If you do a Google search on Debbie's name, you will find very little about her. She was in her forties, a single woman, no children, a very quiet, and private person. She left a sister and I think a brother. Now to someone doing a search on her name with an eye toward "proving" nonexistance, she would be an easy mark. There's not a lot on the Internet indicating that this sweet, wonderful woman who made "diaper cakes" for every office baby shower, mine included, and did her work diligently at her desk every day really existed. Yet, hundreds, if not thousands, of people knew her for years.

There are also errors on the Internet. The Executive Director of the Port Authority was waiting to begin a breakfast meeting at Windows on The World. He was above the impact line. However, in the early days, there were stories circulating in the newspaper that he was last seen on the 68th floor helping other people. A nice, noble story, but completely untrue. That story is still out there, though, on the Internet, Neil Levin helping people on the 68th Floor, when there is no way he could have possibly been there.

Another problem is making assumptions about what people might or might not do.

If your daughter died in a horrible tragedy, maybe you wouldn't EVER give a rat's ass that her year of high school graduation was listed incorrectly on some website. I don't know if I would or not. I just picture that if I had lost my daughter that way, I'd still be curled up in a fetal position in a soft room somewhere.

You remember, no doubt, the long lines of family members waiting to give DNA to the medical examiner's office to help identify the bits and pieces of humanity that were sifted out of the debris. In some cases they would give cheek swabs, in other cases they also brought in toothbrushes and other articles used by the victims to get a DNA profile on board. Well, in the case of one of my dead coworkers, they couldn't even get her son to return their phone calls. We're pretty sure he has drug issues, but the fact that his mother was dead sent him deeper into whatever hell he already lived in, and he couldn't deal with her death, not at all. Eventually, some of her friends and relatives spoke with him and he did go down and give a sample so that if they discovered any remains, they could be identified. The point is, you can't determine from person to person or family to family how someone would react based on what you would do.

So, as to the woman from Maryland that you suspect may not exist simply because of discrepancies in the year she graduated high school or the fact that she was listed somewhere and then became unlisted--that's very much a "so what"? It tells you nothing. The only way to verify your suspicions--or put them to rest--would be to go visit her hometown and talk to people who say they knew her. Drawing conclusions from what you read on the Internet is pretty shaky research.

 

[Nekoda]

What would be the point of faking just some deaths? Doesn't make any sense to me.

The greater the number of deaths, the higher the indignation of people attacked - the easier they are to manipulate into war and police state agendas.

3000 families, if one is conservative on the numbers, say, one sibling and 2 parents each, or one partner and 2 children, is:

12,000 people who, if only half of them thought there was something wrong with the official story could form a small power base of lawyers and legal action.

That said, I suspect a majority of faked deaths (that is, made up people) and/or the inclusion of real people in the list that had already died - but leave open the possibility that there were real deaths as well.

 

[Trainlady]

The greater the number of deaths, the higher the indignation of people attacked - the easier they are to manipulate into war and police state agendas.

3000 families, if one is conservative on the numbers, say, one sibling and 2 parents each, or one partner and 2 children, is:

12,000 people who, if only half of them thought there was something wrong with the official story could form a small power base of lawyers and legal action.

That said, I suspect a majority of faked deaths (that is, made up people) and/or the inclusion of real people in the list that had already died - but leave open the possibility that there were real deaths as well.

I think it's pretty clear that you have not been to the NY/NJ metropolitan area in general or the WTC in particular.

 

[Btodd]

That said, I suspect a majority of faked deaths (that is, made up people) and/or the inclusion of real people in the list that had already died - but leave open the possibility that there were real deaths as well.

That's cool. I suspect we were all created 5 minutes ago with false memories pre-planted in our minds about things that never happened. It's easy when you can make it up as you go along, and never have to prove it.


Btodd

 

[Nekoda]

<staff edit>

Having trouble staying away Dan?

As for experience, in say, for instance, piloting an 767 - no I don't. I rely on information available and what pilots with thousands of hours of experience say.

<staff edit>

Oh btw - you can post your commercial airline credentials now. Wouldn't want to be caught being a hypocrite - doesn't look good if you're going to point fingers about who has experience in what.