PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

[from scratch]

I want in on this too. I will bring the desert..

What are you making or bringing for desert? You can still bring it. It must be sweet. I have a sweet tooth that needs to be fed.

 

[Clare73]

If I was a sabbath Law keeper, I wouldn't want to debate either one of you

I second that!

 

[BobRyan]

Biblical FYI:

Every day was based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.

But not in Genesis 2:1-3 and not in the New Earth and not today.

The Sabbath as given in Genesis 2 would not be given in animal sacrifice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cribstyl]

But not in Genesis 2:1-3 and not in the New Earth and not today.

The Sabbath as given in Genesis 2 would not be given in animal sacrifice.

in Christ,

Bob

Why does your commentary overeach by saying what the scriptures does not say?
According to the Gen 2: 1-3 God rested. These scriptures does not say anything about a sabbath given/ It says and mean that God rested.

SDA Commentary say that God set an example by resting on the seventh day. The bible said that God rested because He had ended all His work.
We disagree with SDA and reknown protestant commentaries about Sabbath institution at creation.
The fact that God establish sabbath as a sign of a covenant between Himself and only one nation is evident who was given the sabbath.
The New Test establishes that Gentile were strangers of the covenants. This is evidence that God never commanded the world to keep the sabbath.
The fourth commandment tells the Children of Israel several reasons to keep the sabbath. None of the reasons was; it was instituted at creation.

 

[Clare73]

posting error

 

[Clare73]

[FONT=&quot]Introduction and overview for the Bible Creation Sabbath Affirmative[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]==============================================[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are a number of annual Sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23 - some of them are feasts (for example Passover) and some of them are not (such as the Day of Atonement) - but all of the annual Sabbaths are based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]

Biblical FYI:

Every day was based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.

Two sacrifices, morning and evening, were offered every day (Nu 28:3-4),
including the weekly Sabbaths.
The sacrifices pointed to the death of Christ 360 days a year.

Sacrifices were not peculiar to Sabbaths.
Nor is the meaning of the sacrifices linked to Sabbaths any more than it is linked to every other day of the year.
The Sabbaths are not the indicators of the meaning of the sacrifices.

Rather, it is the shedding of animal blood for one's sin that is the indicator of the meaning of the sacrifices, as shadows of the reality in Christ of substitutionary atonement for sin.

The Sabbaths are shadows of the reality in Crhist of rest from all work to save ourselves.

The Sabbaths and the sacrifices are each shadows of different realities in Christ.

But not in Genesis 2:1-3 and not in the New Earth and not today.

The Sabbath as given in Genesis 2 would not be given in animal sacrifice.

in Christ,

Bob

I was responding to your post whose context was the Levitical feasts, which are the time from Moses to Christ,
not before or after that time.

 

[Clare73]

The Opening post is up! #2

WOW! Remind me to stay on the same side of the aisle as he is.

Could someone explain what bugkiller means with the shabath, nuwach sabbath thing, so a simple girl can understand it?

One should note that God rested (nuwach not shabath) on the 7th day here in Exodus. God here blessed something different from Genesis 2:3 - the Sabbath. God did not bless the Sabbath in Gen 2:3. If we follow the English in all general English versions we have basicly the same thing. It makes perfect sense that there was a cause (reaon) for the action. The cause was presented first with the reason following.

The word shabath encompases the word nuwach. Not the other way around. Shabath is also translated as cease in direct relationship to the Sabbath.

Thanks,
Clare

 

[from scratch]

WOW! Remind me to stay on the same side of the aisle as he is.

Could someone explain what bugkiller means with the shabath, nuwach sabbath thing, so a simple girl can understand it?



Thanks,
Clare

One should note that God rested (nuwach not shabath) on the 7th day here in Exodus. God here blessed something different from Genesis 2:3 - the Sabbath. God did not bless the Sabbath in Gen 2:3. If we follow the English in all general English versions we have basicly the same thing. It makes perfect sense that there was a cause (reaon) for the action. The cause was presented first with the reason following.

The word Sabbath encompases the word nuwach. Not the other way around. Shabath is also translated as cease in direct relationship to the Sabbath.

Sabbath is a noun Strong number H7676.

Shabath is a verb Strongs number H7673.

Nuwach is a verb Strongs number H5117.

Shabath translated rested in Genenis 2 means specifically to cease from labor as in a court cease and desist order. Interestingly this very word is translated cease in Hosea 2:11 about the Sabbath.

I think the difference between the words used concern what is happening. The word nuwach would imply periodic occurances according to the text. Six days of work and one day of rest.

The same type of self definition occurs in Genesis 2. God ended His work. God did not return to creating on the first day or another day thereafter. His work of creation was finished.

 

[Clare73]

Sabbath is a noun Strong number H7676.

Shabath is a verb Strongs number H7673.

Nuwach is a verb Strongs number H5117.

Shabath translated rested in Genenis 2 means specifically to cease from labor as in a court cease and desist order. Interestingly this very word is translated cease in Hosea 2:11 about the Sabbath.

I think the difference between the words used concern what is happening. The word nuwach would imply periodic occurances according to the text. Six days of work and one day of rest.

The same type of self definition occurs in Genesis 2. God ended His work. God did not return to creating on the first day or another day thereafter. His work of creation was finished.

Thanks so much, scratch.

 

[BobRyan]

I was responding to your post whose context was the Levitical feasts, which are the time from Moses to Christ,
not before or after that time.

The annual sabbaths given in Lev 23 were based on animal sacrifices from their very inception and as Hebrews 10 states - their sacrifices are ended in the NT - thus they end.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Biblical FYI:

Every day was based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.

But not in Genesis 2:1-3 and not in the New Earth and not today.

The Sabbath as given in Genesis 2 would not be given in animal sacrifice.

Why does your commentary overeach by saying what the scriptures does not say?
According to the Gen 2: 1-3 God rested. These scriptures does not say anything about a sabbath given/ It says and mean that God rested.

SDA Commentary say that God set an example by resting on the seventh day.

The Gen 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8,11 comparison shows us that the Sabbath was made in Eden.

[FONT=&quot]Gen 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. NASB[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice the language in both Genesis 2 and Exodus 20:11??

God is speaking and making the point that the Genesis 2:1-3 facts alone establish the day for man. (the day made for mankind)

Exodus 20:8,11
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessedthe sabbath day, and hallowed it.[/FONT]

<Staff Edit>

We disagree with SDA and reknown protestant commentaries about Sabbath institution at creation.

Indeed you do.

As well as your differing with others such as D.L Moody and Andy Stanley and R. C Sproul <Staff Edit>.

Each person is allowed to make their own choice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The annual sabbaths given in Lev 23 were based on animal sacrifices from their very inception and as Hebrews 10 states - their sacrifices are ended in the NT - thus they end.

in Christ,

Bob

So why do a lot of Christians want to see the Jews build another Temple for animal sacrifices, once again, after God sent the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem in ad 70?

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of
JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF
THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify
OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS
Relative to that event​

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged. The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome. After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.

 

[Cribstyl]

The Gen 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8,11 comparison shows us that the Sabbath was made in Eden.

[FONT=&quot]Gen 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. NASB[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Notice the language in both Genesis 2 and Exodus 20:11??[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God is speaking and making the point that the Genesis 2:1-3 facts alone establish the day for man. (the day made for mankind)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:8,11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessedthe sabbath day, and hallowed it.[/FONT]

<Staff Edit>

When commentary has an agenda, it's hard to see the clear evidence spelled out by scriptures only. We cannot trade the scriptures for commentary.

The 4th commandment in Ex20 reemphasizes that God rested on the seventh day. In the 4th commandment,"wherefore" means 'this is why' the sabbath is also blessed and sanctified.

Jesus presented a clear understanding as written from Genesis to Exodus about the sabbath.

The subject was breaking the Sabbath. Jesus said;
22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath.
23 Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath?

Jesus and the scriptures proves that; when the COI were freed from Egypt, God commanded Moses to give them the ordinance of circumcision (and Passover).
Not one word was said about Sabbath being passed down. Here are the scripture of the ordinances that God commanded for the COI to keep. Saying that sabbath was passed down is not based on the scriptures.
Exd 12:43¶And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
Exd 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

Moses did not say one word about the sabbath before this point.
Jesus is telling us what the scripture proves. Jesus raised the issue to show why circumcision took presidence to Moses. Jesus said; it was passed down from the fathers.


Sabbath was not given before Moses mentions it was given through His hands.
Why would Moses establish circumcision on the Sabbath day, and not mention that sabbath was aslo passed down to observe?
It's seem clear that Moses dis write in consistant order, everything that God required of mankind.
It clear that Jesus clears up the facts.
Ezekel also wrote that God said; I gave sabbath to the COI.

As well as your differing with others such as D.L Moody and Andy Stanley and R. C Sproul <Staff Edit>.

Each person is allowed to make their own choice.

in Christ,

Bob

God's word vs partial commentary?? I'll take God's word.

These notable poineers are being partially quoted by you. If their argument is that Sunday is that sabbath, you're being hypocritical to partially quote them. One argument at a time makes good sense.

 

[Clare73]

Texas BBQ is better.

I lived 90% of my life in Texas!

 

[from scratch]

I lived 90% of my life in Texas!

Just maybe Texas has some mesquite left to BBQ with after all those fires last year.

 

[from scratch]

When commentary has an agenda, it's hard to see the clear evidence spelled out by scriptures only. We cannot trade the scriptures for commentary.

The 4th commandment in Ex20 reemphasizes that God rested on the seventh day. In the 4th commandment,"wherefore" means 'this is why' the sabbath is also blessed and sanctified.

Jesus presented a clear understanding as written from Genesis to Exodus about the sabbath.

The subject was breaking the Sabbath. Jesus said;
22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath.
23 Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath?

Jesus and the scriptures proves that; when the COI were freed from Egypt, God commanded Moses to give them the ordinance of circumcision (and Passover).
Not one word was said about Sabbath being passed down. Here are the scripture of the ordinances that God commanded for the COI to keep. Saying that sabbath was passed down is not based on the scriptures.
Exd 12:43¶And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
Exd 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

Moses did not say one word about the sabbath before this point.
Jesus is telling us what the scripture proves. Jesus raised the issue to show why circumcision took presidence to Moses. Jesus said; it was passed down from the fathers.


Sabbath was not given before Moses mentions it was given through His hands.
Why would Moses establish circumcision on the Sabbath day, and not mention that sabbath was aslo passed down to observe?
It's seem clear that Moses dis write in consistant order, everything that God required of mankind.
It clear that Jesus clears up the facts.
Ezekel also wrote that God said; I gave sabbath to the COI.
God's word vs partial commentary?? I'll take God's word.

These notable poineers are being partially quoted by you. If their argument is that Sunday is that sabbath, you're being hypocritical to partially quote them. One argument at a time makes good sense.

So if I understand things correctly Jesus says that ....um er well the law of Moses takes presedence over what God wrote with His own finger. What???!!!! Jesus is God. There has to be lots of confusion here.

 

[Clare73]

Every day, not just the Sabbaths, was based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.

But not in Genesis 2:1-3 and not in the New Earth and not today.

The Sabbath as given in Genesis 2 would not be given in animal sacrifice.

I was responding to your post whose context was the annual Sabbaths of Leviticus, which was the time from Moses to Christ, not before or after that time.

The annual sabbaths given in Lev 23 were based on animal sacrifices from their very inception and as Hebrews 10 states - their sacrifices are ended in the NT - thus they end.

Well, that completes the circle. . .and are we now back to where we started!

Every day, not just the Sabbaths, was based on animal sacrifices pointing forward
to the death of Christ.

Two sacrifices, morning and evening, were offered every day (Nu 28:3-4),
including the weekly Sabbaths.
The sacrifices pointed to the death of Christ 360 days a year.

Sacrifices were not peculiar to Sabbaths.
Nor is the meaning of the sacrifices linked to Sabbaths any more than it is linked
to every other day of the year.
The Sabbaths are not the indicators for the meaning of the sacrifices.

Rather, the shedding of animal blood for one's sin is the indicator for the meaning of the sacrifices, as shadows of the reality in Christ of substitutionary atonement for sin.

As for the Sabbaths, they were shadows of the reality in Christ of rest from all work to save ourselves.

The Sabbaths and the sacrifices are each shadows of different realities in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

Just maybe Texas has some mesquite left to BBQ with after all those fires last year.

Those fires were in mesquite country.

 

[Cribstyl]

So if I understand things correctly Jesus says that ....um er well the law of Moses takes presedence over what God wrote with His own finger. What???!!!! Jesus is God. There has to be lots of confusion here.

All depends on what you understand the law of Moses is. What Jesus called the law of Moses is the content of Genesis to Deuteronomy.
Moses wrote and understood Abraham's story, that God made an everlasting covenant (circumcision of the flesh) with Abraham Gen 17:10-14
Gen 17:13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

This everlasting covenant is why God, not Moses reestablished circumcision when the COI was freed.

God began to build up Abraham's people as a nation. God made no promises to other people or nations. The sabbath was not mentioned to Abraham or to his family until they were freed and in the wilderness.
Exd 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

God commanded circumcision as a commandment in the law. (law of Moses)
Lev 12:1¶And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

It seem clear to understand that the 8th day of birth sometimes fell on the sabbath.
Christ made it clear that Moses taught what was written to keep. Circumcision was given to the COI as a passed down everlasting covenant.
Sabbath was given through Moses not the fathers. Both covenants had to be kept.

 

[Cribstyl]

If God made Abraham's people His peaple while they were slaves.
God commanded worship after they were freed to be able to worship.
God gave only Abraham seed the sabbath as a sign.
Pointing back to a creation sabbath is fudging on biblical truth.