Different state past

[Tiberius]

False! You have only one technique--depending on the present state! Nothing else, you just shuffle around with the belief imposed in different ways. Therefore you cannot falsify Tweedledee with Tweedledum.

And what's your only technique? Relying on wonderland? Is that where Twiddledee and Twiddledum came from?

Anyway, I've already proved that the past was the same state, because if it wasn't, radiometric dating wouldn't work. You;ve never responded to that.

Gravity is known. At least in this state. Nowhere else. It cannot cease to exist. We need rules in the fishbowl. Let's see you make a claim with details that gravity existed as is pre flood? Then if you can (I doubt it) ..let's see you show how it can be falsified!

The flood can be falsified and it has been falsified.

How about YOU provide some details about what you think gravity was pre-flood and we'll falsify them?

Says who? Maybe...maybe not! That remains to be evidenced. After all, we do know that spirits live out there.

You "know" this? How have you verified it? More old myths?

You must comprehend that your power to be able to show anything true or false out of this present state is null and void.

Do you comprehend that you have no ability to show that the state has ever been different?

Well then why try to apply the concept out of the physical only realm?? Don't blame me!!

So now you make up stuff, then blame me when it doesn't work?

If people could use spiritual stuff to verify other spiritual stuff, why do so many people have different ideas about spiritual stuff? Coz, y'know, that kinda suggests that there is no objective spirituality.

Checkmate.

Man, I'm glad I wasn't drinking, because I would have snorted my drink through my nose! You make me laugh so much. And not in a good way.

 

[dad]

And what's your only technique? Relying on wonderland? Is that where Twiddledee and Twiddledum came from?

Science needs a technique. Doesn't matter what else exists outside of science. You need to defend what they have.

Anyway, I've already proved that the past was the same state, because if it wasn't, radiometric dating wouldn't work. You;ve never responded to that.

The materials, if already here, could not have been produced by decay (as they now are) so no dates are possible unless you first prove a same state past.

The flood can be falsified and it has been falsified.

I double dare you to try.

How about YOU provide some details about what you think gravity was pre-flood and we'll falsify them?

So you can't. OK, then claim no present state gravity as part of any so called science claim evermore.

You "know" this? How have you verified it? More old myths?

Spiritual is known through all bible and all history. You know we are all wrong??? How? Get a grip.

Do you comprehend that you have no ability to show that the state has ever been different?

False. The bible and history do that. You have no ability to question us.

So now you make up stuff, then blame me when it doesn't work?

I am not making upp that your claims require a physical only realm. That should be patently obvious even to you.

If people could use spiritual stuff to verify other spiritual stuff, why do so many people have different ideas about spiritual stuff? Coz, y'know, that kinda suggests that there is no objective spirituality.

The issue is whether science knows...not who has all things related to spirits right.

Man, I'm glad I wasn't drinking, because I would have snorted my drink through my nose! You make me laugh so much. And not in a good way.

Early phases of questioning what you were taught was reality being questioned....seen it often.

 

[Tiberius]

Science needs a technique. Doesn't matter what else exists outside of science. You need to defend what they have.

The scientific method is the strength of science. Your way of finding out things, however, is to really really believe something and ignore anyone who disagrees, then claim that you are right.

I see little kids do that in the playground all the time.

The materials, if already here, could not have been produced by decay (as they now are) so no dates are possible unless you first prove a same state past.

Ah, another one of your unsupported claims, dad? I see these all the time, they are nothing new...

I double dare you to try.

The fact that we have records from ancient civilisations that stretch back uninturrupted for thousands of years without any mention of the flood. The fact that a global flood would have left a great deal of evidence, and yet we find none of this evidence. In fact, when we look at what creationists tell us are the layers of sediment that were laid down by their flood, we see things like insect burrows, footprints etc that could NOT have possibly occurred if the Biblical account of the flood is true. And let's not forget all the implausibilities in the flood itself. How did all the animals get to Noah? How did they all get back? Why is it that we find fossils of kangaroos in Australia and nowhere else? Why don't we find rabbits in Australia until they were introduced by europeans? After all, the present proliferation of rabbits in Australia certainly shows that they can thrive their, so why didn't they head for Australia after hopping off the ark? How did all the animals survive? How did they get enough food? How did the plants survive? How did the fish survive, since most of them could not survive the extreme changes in salinity they would have experienced. Given that there are many animals that need to live in huge social structures (like bees, ants, termites), how could they have survived if there were only two (or fourteen)?

So you can't. OK, then claim no present state gravity as part of any so called science claim evermore.

You can't either. You can tell us NOTHING useful produced by your idea.

Spiritual is known through all bible and all history. You know we are all wrong??? How? Get a grip.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that you have no way of verifying it, so you can't be sure you are right.

False. The bible and history do that. You have no ability to question us.

lol, I have plenty of ability to question you. I'm doing so rght now.

And here again is your magical claim that "the Bible" and "history" verify you to be correct. In reality, all you are doing is accepting the word of old stories and myths written thousands of years ago as fact without bothering to check them and verify them.

I am not making upp that your claims require a physical only realm. That should be patently obvious even to you.

No, but you are using a made-up spiritual realm.

The issue is whether science knows...not who has all things related to spirits right.

Well, I think we know that it certainly isn't you.

 

[dad]

The scientific method is the strength of science.

Funny, the scientific method is the same state method, and is the Achilles heel of science.

Your way of finding out things, however, is to really really believe something and ignore anyone who disagrees, then claim that you are right.

No. I look at evidence. Got any?

The fact that we have records from ancient civilisations that stretch back uninturrupted for thousands of years without any mention of the flood.

The flood pre dated ALL civilizations! Try again.

The fact that a global flood would have left a great deal of evidence, and yet we find none of this evidence.

Where? On the surface? Dig deeper! You see rapid continetal separation likely was after the flood.

In fact, when we look at what creationists tell us are the layers of sediment that were laid down by their flood, we see things like insect burrows, footprints etc that could NOT have possibly occurred if the Biblical account of the flood is true.

Try the KT layer.

And let's not forget all the implausibilities in the flood itself. How did all the animals get to Noah?

God can communicate with creatures.

How did they all get back? Why is it that we find fossils of kangaroos in Australia and nowhere else?

They liked it there. Remember the separation of continents came later. Easy peasy.

Why don't we find rabbits in Australia until they were introduced by europeans? After all, the present proliferation of rabbits in Australia certainly shows that they can thrive their, so why didn't they head for Australia after hopping off the ark?

Maybe it was too wet at the time? Etc....?

How did all the animals survive?

Simple. Fast plant growth. Food was easy.

How did the plants survive?

God. That wasn't Noah's job.

How did the fish survive, since most of them could not survive the extreme changes in salinity they would have experienced.

Simple. Rapid evolution was still in place the nature change was later!

Given that there are many animals that need to live in huge social structures (like bees, ants, termites), how could they have survived if there were only two (or fourteen)?

They need to now, not on the ark. Instincts as we know them came later.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that you have no way of verifying it, so you can't be sure you are right.

I can be sure you are wrong. I can trust God for the rest.

And here again is your magical claim that "the Bible" and "history" verify you to be correct. In reality, all you are doing is accepting the word of old stories and myths written thousands of years ago as fact without bothering to check them and verify them.

All you are doing is waving away the only records of observers! Insane.

No, but you are using a made-up spiritual realm.

False. It is well known. Almost universally known as a matter of fact. Always has been since ever there was a man.



Well, I think we know that it certainly isn't you.[/quote]

 

[TeddyReceptus]

The flood pre dated ALL civilizations! Try again.

Yeah!

Where? On the surface? Dig deeper! You see rapid continetal separation likely was after the flood.

So within recorded history, after the Flood and before the Split?

How long did the continents have to move at HYPERSPEED because they'd have to in order to move around sufficiently to be where they are today. And since "today" is using normal physics the plates only move a couple cm/year or so.

Try the KT layer.

Why did the "Different State Past" result in so much more Ir than is normally found in terrestrial sediments?

God can communicate with creatures.

eg: the "Bat Phone"

Maybe it was too wet at the time? Etc....?

"maybe it was [fill in blank]" <-- how the "Different State Past" works as an explanation.

I can be sure you are wrong. I can trust God for the rest.

It's so GOOD that God gave you knowledge superior to everyone else. Yay! God chooses his prophets well!

All you are doing is waving away the only records of observers!

And by waving away you are not saying things like...

Maybe it was too wet at the time? Etc....?

 

[dad]

Yeah!

Correct. All civilizations are post flood. The only reason that so called science did not comprehend that is becays they use decay (same state) dating. Got any other reason??!

So within recorded history, after the Flood and before the Split?

Good question. I don't know. Why what would it matter? I assume after the flood, and at the split.

How long did the continents have to move at HYPERSPEED because they'd have to in order to move around sufficiently to be where they are today. And since "today" is using normal physics the plates only move a couple cm/year or so.

I don't know. Walt Brown if I recall figured it was something like a day. I could stretch it out to years, or weeks, or days. I suspect no longer than about 3-4 years, and at least a day!

Why did the "Different State Past" result in so much more Ir than is normally found in terrestrial sediments?

Easy. Where do you think that comes from? Space and the interior of earth! Exactly where flood waters came from.

"maybe it was [fill in blank]" <-- how the "Different State Past" works as an explanation.

It does not work. It worked!

It's so GOOD that God gave you knowledge superior to everyone else. Yay! God chooses his prophets well!

I can read. I can debate. Not sure that makes one a 'prophet'!

And by waving away you are not saying things like...

[/QUOTE] No. We know by science that Australia was different than it is now. Another issue to consider is whether what we call hares are what the original kind was!?

 

[Farinata]

Mac: So what about radiometric dating? 1a supernovae? The fact that we can see light coming from locations many millions of light years away? The fact that a different state past would cause everything we look at for evidence of the past to look incredibly different?

Joe: Forget that! It's all nonsense! Different state past!

Mac: How is it nonsense? Can you quantify how the physical laws were different in this "different state past"?

Joe: Naw dawg. You just have to trust that these nomads 3000 years ago were talking to God. Trust me, the iron age dudes had much greater insight into the workings of the universe than modern day scientists. Even though they interpreted their scriptures much more metaphorically than I do. And that their conception of God is vastly different from that of modern day Christians. And that these scriptures were added to & modified over hundreds of years. And that the Pentateuch was written haphazardly by many different authors over many years.

 

[Tiberius]

Funny, the scientific method is the same state method, and is the Achilles heel of science.

Funny, because from where I sit, your idea is nothing but one big Achille's heel...

No. I look at evidence. Got any?

Yes, I've presented it many times in this thread. Namely, how could many different types of radio0metric dating technique give the same result if the decay rates in the past were different? A constant state answers this question. You;ve never explained how a different past state can.

The flood pre dated ALL civilizations! Try again.

So, how long ago was the flood, exactly?

Oh, and weren't you the one saying that the change of state occurred AFTER the Sumerian civilization?

Where? On the surface? Dig deeper! You see rapid continetal separation likely was after the flood.

What is your evidence for this?

Try the KT layer.

How is a global flood the most likely cause for the KT boundary?

God can communicate with creatures.

So can Dr Dolittle.

They liked it there. Remember the separation of continents came later. Easy peasy.

lol, they liked it there? How do you know? And I'm waiting for your evidence that the separation of the continents came later.

Maybe it was too wet at the time? Etc....?

So now you are guessing. In other words, you don't know.

Simple. Fast plant growth. Food was easy.

And where did all these plants grow on the Ark? And how did the plants grow without nutrients?

God. That wasn't Noah's job.

So why didn't God take care of the animals the same way?

Of course, if we view the Bible as a collection of ancient myths, the answer is obvious - the people who lived at the time the stories were written weren't aware that plants were alive.

Simple. Rapid evolution was still in place the nature change was later!

So, fish evolved from one form into another form that could cope with the change of salinity, and then evolved into yet another form which we see today?

Have you got any evidence or are you just pulling this out of your... ear?

They need to now, not on the ark. Instincts as we know them came later.

So more of your magical rapid evolution so they could evolve from solitary insects into social insects? More ear logic?

I can be sure you are wrong. I can trust God for the rest.

I think that you are actually just trusting the conclusions you have already jumped to.

All you are doing is waving away the only records of observers! Insane.

How do you know that they were observers? I thought you say that the change of state happened at the time of the flood, and that it happened before any civilizations?

False. It is well known. Almost universally known as a matter of fact. Always has been since ever there was a man.

People have thought there was one, but that doesn't make it real. It's more of a thing that gives people a way to explain things that they don't have a rational explanation for.

 

[FreethinkerWWJD]

Why would anyone care for a long list of what science can't prove wrong? That is increasingly clear. No surprises there. What you need is a short list of things you can prove! Starting with the laws in the past that you have used to model fantasy past primordial fantasy lands.

Because, if you assert that anything that can't be proven wrong is true by default, then you are forced to belief a VERY long list of improbable and contradictory things.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

Good question. I don't know. Why what would it matter?

Well, it matters because you have proposed an idea. People are trying to understand the idea. If you were just "making it up as you went along" or "making up ideas to fit whatever you need at a specific time" then it would contain a LOT of things where you have to ask "why would it matter?" when people ask questions.

If you want to develop a really robust hypothesis to help clarify these points then get ready for people to ask all sorts of questions!

No one came up with this idea and forced it on you, so if you like the explanation you are proposing then by all means you should at least try to look like you care enough about your own hypothesis to field questions about it!

I can read. I can debate. Not sure that makes one a 'prophet'!

Don't sell yourself short! Ezekiel reads like he was bat***t insane but he has his own book in the Bible! Don't give up hope!

No. We know by science that Australia was different than it is now. Another issue to consider is whether what we call hares are what the original kind was!?

Well, that's an easy one! Hares today don't chew cud but they did well after the split (Deuteronomy 14:7). There's all sortsa questions around "kinds" just right here!

See how much fun your "Different State Past" can come up with? Why here we have an example of a DIFFERENT STATE hare well after the Split!

Ooooooooh, this is getting deep!

 

[sandwiches]

Me too. And I enjoy challenging it nevertheless.

Same here. It was through this kind of challenging that my circular logic bond that kept me religious was broken.

 

[dad]

Same here. It was through this kind of challenging that my circular logic bond that kept me religious was broken.

I was never religious, so I don't have that problem. Just a saved sinner.

Here is God talking about laws in deep space..

Job 38:33 - Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you make them to rule over the earth?

 

[dad]

Because, if you assert that anything that can't be proven wrong is true by default, then you are forced to belief a VERY long list of improbable and contradictory things.

No. Only if one limits oneself to the present state laws. Once we face the glaring fact that man doesn't know it all, and is in a temporary state, with temporary laws, then we must conclude that man can't prove much wrong.

 

[JustMeSee]

Physical & Life Sciences - A forum for physics, biology, chemistry and other physical sciences.

 

[dad]

Funny, because from where I sit, your idea is nothing but one big Achille's heel...

You sit on earth, pal. Face it.

... how could many different types of radio0metric dating technique give the same result if the decay rates in the past were different? A constant state answers this question. You;ve never explained how a different past state can.

Easy. The materials now in decay were here already. But they were not in decay.

So, how long ago was the flood, exactly?

Many use the estimate of about 4500 years.

Oh, and weren't you the one saying that the change of state occurred AFTER the Sumerian civilization?

No. They are post flood.

What is your evidence for this?

The evidence is that science knows the continents separated! So, in a biblical standpoint where else could this fit?

How is a global flood the most likely cause for the KT boundary?

No one knows. But I suspect that since the stuff in that layer is found in either space or the interior of the earth, that could be a clue! The flood waters came from there.

So can Dr Dolittle.

No. That is a movie. Try not to confuse reality with movies.

lol, they liked it there? How do you know? And I'm waiting for your evidence that the separation of the continents came later.

If they did not find the food and habitat they liked and needed why would they stay? Simple. Another bit of evidence for a later separation might be the evolution of the kinds. We had maybe over a century in the former state. Knowing that fossils are post flood, mostly, for mammals, we can simply look at the record, and see that some animals lived on more than one continent.

So now you are guessing. In other words, you don't know.

No one knows. But I suspect that no better educated guess exists than mine Really.

And where did all these plants grow on the Ark? And how did the plants grow without nutrients?

Planters I suspect. Lots of rain and poop around. Need more??

So why didn't God take care of the animals the same way?

He leaves some stuff up to little man.

Of course, if we view the Bible as a collection of ancient myths, the answer is obvious - the people who lived at the time the stories were written weren't aware that plants were alive.

Unsupported godless guess.

So, fish evolved from one form into another form that could cope with the change of salinity, and then evolved into yet another form which we see today?

The salinity is not proven is it? I suspect there may have been areas more saline than others

Have you got any evidence or are you just pulling this out of your... ear?

We need time in the former state for animals to evolve as much as the record indicates I suspect. If the change was right at the flood, then we can kiss the ice age good bye in a rapid way, and evolution.

So more of your magical rapid evolution so they could evolve from solitary insects into social insects? More ear logic?

Try to limit the former state evolving?? Get serious. Like you know. But even normally solitary insects or social, could have their instincts updated fast as needed! Easy. Then, we still have over a hundred long former state years to adjust as needed!

I think that you are actually just trusting the conclusions you have already jumped to.

I am distrusting the ones you cling to without reason.

How do you know that they were observers? I thought you say that the change of state happened at the time of the flood, and that it happened before any civilizations?

No, I suspect the earth was split or divided in the days of Peleg. Many accounts have him born 101 years after the flood if I recall.

People have thought there was one, but that doesn't make it real. It's more of a thing that gives people a way to explain things that they don't have a rational explanation for.

Define rational, as pertaining to the supernatural??

 

[dad]

Physical & Life Sciences - A forum for physics, biology, chemistry and other physical sciences.

Physics only applied since the state existed we live in. Same with the rest you mention. Therefore, the important thing is to know what laws apply to the creation debate. Also in deep space it might be different. So, we need to look at what is known and actually science.

 

[dad]

Well, it matters because you have proposed an idea. People are trying to understand the idea. If you were just "making it up as you went along" or "making up ideas to fit whatever you need at a specific time" then it would contain a LOT of things where you have to ask "why would it matter?" when people ask questions.

If you want to develop a really robust hypothesis to help clarify these points then get ready for people to ask all sorts of questions!

No one came up with this idea and forced it on you, so if you like the explanation you are proposing then by all means you should at least try to look like you care enough about your own hypothesis to field questions about it!

OK. This might help...


Timeline - A Journey of Discovery

Well, that's an easy one! Hares today don't chew cud but they did well after the split (Deuteronomy 14:7). There's all sortsa questions around "kinds" just right here!

Fossil Mammal Resembling Dog-Hare Hybrid Found in Bolivia

Funny about the 3 molar thingie What cud it mean?

See how much fun your "Different State Past" can come up with? Why here we have an example of a DIFFERENT STATE hare well after the Split!

Well, I suspect that if God refers to a hare as a cud chewer, that the original kind was just that!

 

[JustMeSee]

Physics only applied since the state existed we live in. Same with the rest you mention. Therefore, the important thing is to know what laws apply to the creation debate. Also in deep space it might be different. So, we need to look at what is known and actually science.

Okay. I am not sure how this conclusion can be tested in the current state of existence. I was a bit confused, because this is not in the C and E sub forum.

 

[dad]

Okay. I am not sure how this conclusion can be tested in the current state of existence. I was a bit confused, because this is not in the C and E sub forum.

Dark matter and the big bang and many things cannot be tested by you.

What we do here is look at the things being claimed, and the basis for them. Physics...etc. The astounding fact is that unless this present state and laws existed in the far past, none of what so called science claims is valid. So one best get to the truth, right?

 

[JustMeSee]

Dark matter and the big bang and many things cannot be tested by you.

What we do here is look at the things being claimed, and the basis for them. Physics...etc. The astounding fact is that unless this present state and laws existed in the far past, none of what so called science claims is valid. So one best get to the truth, right?

thanks.