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Methods Of Dating Rock & Fossils

RickG

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And corrected for imaginary dust as needed?

But it did delay us supposedly seeing things related to the claimed decay for considerable time...and etc...
And was it seen from day one and exactly fit what C56 or whatever would do..not affected by dust or anything else?


Now if you can clearly demo your claim here, it might help. If you are correct...fine. Let's have a clear look. Were your rays visible from day 1 then, doing exactly what was expected..yes or no?

It is not me that has to demonstrate anything. You are the one who has demonstrated with your absurd comments that you are talking through your hat and are completely clueless to principles of spectroscopy. Making totally irrelevant statements out of context fools no one.
 
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dad

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It is not me that has to demonstrate anything. You are the one who has demonstrated with your absurd comments that you are talking through your hat and are completely clueless to principles of spectroscopy. Making totally irrelevant statements out of context fools no one.
The emission of gamma rays usually associated with something such as cobalt might be at certain energies in a lab on earth. If you want to claim that the identical thing happened for sn1987a then you would need to stop trying to talk down to us. You afraid of having your ideas scrutinized? You have a clear picture of what you are talking about? Stop blathering then and start displaying some facts.

I posted some links about how dust was a factor. If it is not for what you are trying to allude to here, then show us why, and that is that.


The whole sn1987a fable (whether you have a point on one little thing or not, that remains to be seen) is a pile of nonsense.

Let's look at a few things about it here.


They saw no rings. Yet they claim the rings must have been there for tens of thousands of years. Gee we missed seeing them.

"The origin and the nature of the beautiful circumstellar rings are still a mystery. They have been measured to expand rather slowly, "only" 70,000-100,000 miles per hour (this is considered slow because the supernova material in the center is expanding outward at speeds that are 100-2000 times higher!). Spectroscopic observations show that the rings are enriched in the element nitrogen. Both the slow speeds and the unusual composition show that the rings were expelled from the progenitor star when it was a red supergiant, more than 20,000 years before that star exploded as a supernova. However, one would have expected such a star to eject material in a more regular fashion, steadily expelling material in all directions, rather than puffing rings like a pipe smoker."

The SN 1987A Story

"This requires that the nearest and best observed supernova in modern history just happens to also be a freak, resulting from a coincidental merger event," he added.
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums
The we have the dust stuff.

Then they expected a neutron star or at least, after much though a black hole! Nope. None around. Fail again.


According to the classic theory, there should be a neutron star where Sanduleak used to be. Neutron stars are dead stars, stellar cinders made of neutrons squeezed through the bars of their atomic cages and thus able to achieve extraordinary densities--a neutron star just 10 miles across contains as much matter as our sun. Physicists don’t know very much about how these odd beasts behave, but they know that the stars usually appear in the sky as pulsars, rotating stars that project beams of intense radio waves into space, like cosmic lighthouses. In the case of SN1987A, however, no pulsars have been detected.

"The only alternative suggested by classic theory is that Sanduleak, rather than forming a neutron star, collapsed into a black hole, but astronomers don’t put much stock in this option. For one thing, conventional wisdom says that Sanduleak was too small to turn into a black hole. And besides, black holes tend to swallow everything in their vicinity, supernovas included. If there was a black hole where Sanduleak used to be, we would never have seen the supernova that produced it in the first place. Yet we did, and its hollow remnant haunts us still. "
Mystery of the Missing Star | Stars | DISCOVER Magazine


"Another key finding is that the team has detected far less dust than expected. A star as massive as the one that blew apart in SN 1987A likely produced more silicate dust in the years before the supernova. The under-abundance of dust detected by Spitzer and Gemini South could mean that supernova blast waves destroy more dust than thought possible"

Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

Hey supposedly 10,000 times more dust than they thought no less!

"After the scientists yielded the images from space, they were amazed to discover that SN 1987A was aglow with light and, with careful calculations, it was revealed that the radiancy was originating from enormous clouds of dust - consisting of 10,000 times more material than previously estimated."


Herschel dusts off hidden cosmic origin


" But although the shape of the light curve mimics the decay of cobalt-57, the magnitude of the curve -- indicating the amount of light now emitted by 1987A -- exceeds that predicted by theory, both teams say......One way to explain the greater emissions, note Suntzeff and his colleagues, is to assume that the supernova produced a ratio of cobalt-57 to cobalt-56 five times the ratio typical in our solar system. ...."
Supernova's light curve baffles scientists - supernova 1987A | Science News | Find Articles


When the decay light curve info is not up to snuff...again comes that pixie dust


"After 500 days the visible light faded even faster than the Cobalt-56 decay rate. That happened because after that time dust particles began to form in the supernova debris"
L6S6


They claimed the type of star was not right to go sn. Gee, there must have been a ghost companion star that made it all work out right. How nice. Amazing what enough expensive computer sims can do.


"Soon after the event was recorded, the progenitor star was identified as Sanduleak -69° 202a, a blue supergiant. This was an unexpected identification, because at the time a blue supergiant was not considered a possibility for a supernova event in existing models of high mass stellar evolution. Many models of the progenitor have attributed the color to its chemical composition, particularly the low levels of heavy elements, among other factors"

SN 1987A - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Then we have the distance. Seems like it is based on TIME?


"The radius of the primary gas ring around SN1987A is based on the observed time it took for the energy from the explosion to hit the ring [traveling at the speed of light], which was 0.658 years "


SN1987A and the Age of the Universe

Rather than a measure of speed, it is time then, assumed to represent speed if space and laws and therefore light were the same..right?

So triangulation depends on...time I guess in this case?


Now, if you want to show details of your gamma stuff, do it. Showtime.
 
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dad

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No you aren't, not from what I have seen.
Yes I am. But I don't scare easy. And the way I figure it, all an expert can do is provide more reasons to question what is supposedly known. You think I never talked to an astro whiz before??

It was over at EVC where I cut my teeth on experts. They had them coming out the wazoo there. Apparently they felt it was a safe place to 'debate' because all opposition was killed by the unfair moderating practices as fast almost as they could post. Bring it.
 
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NGC 6712

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They saw no rings. Yet they claim the rings must have been there for tens of thousands of years. Gee we missed seeing them.
The material would not have been visible until heated up by the supernova. Cold interstellar matter unless excited by radiation from a source of sufficient strength is extremely hard to detect even at much closer distances. Even with todays superior telescopes.
However, one would have expected such a star to eject material in a more regular fashion, steadily expelling material in all directions, rather than puffing rings like a pipe smoker."
Sanduleak -69 202 was a blue supergiant and as such would have been rotating at a high rate. You expect ejected material to be preferentially ejected from the equatorial regions because of the lower effective gravity compared to the poles. It is more likely to get rings than a spherical mass ejection you would see from a red giant for instance.
Then they expected a neutron star or at least, after much though a black hole! Nope. None around. Fail again.
If the neutron start is even slightly shrouded or no material is falling on it then its non-detection is not surprising. Same goes for a black hole.
In the case of SN1987A, however, no pulsars have been detected.
Pulsars can only be detected if the radiation cones are pointing toward the Earth. The odds of this are not great. The opening angle of a pulsar is not that great.
And besides, black holes tend to swallow everything in their vicinity, supernovas included. If there was a black hole where Sanduleak used to be, we would never have seen the supernova that produced it in the first place.
Rubbish. What on Earth gives you this idea. I know, a lack of physics knowledge.
Rather than a measure of speed, it is time then, assumed to represent speed if space and laws and therefore light were the same..right?

So triangulation depends on...time I guess in this case?
This is your resort to everything. An almost solipsism like attitude. How do you know the laws of physics were not the same the day prior to your birth and your parents and grandparents lived their entire pre-your birth lifetime in three minutes? The basic physics of the universe has been unchanged for billions of years. That's it, end of story.
 
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dad

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The material would not have been visible until heated up by the supernova
. Inside your theory yes, so? prove that was the case and had to be the only possible scenario?


Cold interstellar matter unless excited by radiation from a source of sufficient strength is extremely hard to detect even at much closer distances. Even with todays superior telescopes.

I frankly don't believe you. I doubt what we see is what you claim and believe. You mean that IF space were space as we know it and our laws applied, THEN we would expect to see what you recite.
Sanduleak -69 202 was a blue supergiant and as such would have been rotating at a high rate.
Woulda? Coulda? Shoulda? How about prove it was? You can't can you? You just need it to be so in your model I suspect? If not, then go ahead and show us.

You expect ejected material to be preferentially ejected from the equatorial regions because of the lower effective gravity compared to the poles.

No. YOU do! You also claim it 'would have been rotating at a high rate! Proof?


It is more likely to get rings than a spherical mass ejection you would see from a red giant for instance.
False. Only if what you say was known and correct, rather than just needed and assumed.
If the neutron start is even slightly shrouded or no material is falling on it then its non-detection is not surprising. Same goes for a black hole.
Ha. So we cannot see what you predicted. I rest my case.
Pulsars can only be detected if the radiation cones are pointing toward the Earth. The odds of this are not great. The opening angle of a pulsar is not that great.
In your theory maybe. Convenient.
Rubbish. What on Earth gives you this idea. I know, a lack of physics knowledge.
Not sure who you quoted there and were responding to. Not me.


This is your resort to everything. An almost solipsism like attitude. How do you know the laws of physics were not the same the day prior to your birth and your parents and grandparents lived their entire pre-your birth lifetime in three minutes?
Easy. Newspapers books movies history. Reasonable evidence.

The basic physics of the universe has been unchanged for billions of years. That's it, end of story.
No. That is a lie and unsupportable. That is your story. Nice try.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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. Inside your theory yes, so? prove that was the case and had to be the only possible scenario?




I frankly don't believe you. I doubt what we see is what you claim and believe. You mean that IF space were space as we know it and our laws applied, THEN we would expect to see what you recite.

Woulda? Coulda? Shoulda? How about prove it was? You can't can you? You just need it to be so in your model I suspect? If not, then go ahead and show us.



No. YOU do! You also claim it 'would have been rotating at a high rate! Proof?


False. Only if what you say was known and correct, rather than just needed and assumed.
Ha. So we cannot see what you predicted. I rest my case.
In your theory maybe. Convenient.
Not sure who you quoted there and were responding to. Not me.


Easy. Newspapers books movies history. Reasonable evidence.

No. That is a lie and unsupportable. That is your story. Nice try.


Nobody really cares what you think because all you're saying is "in my fantasy alternate universe anything I claim is possible and you can't prove it isn't". Well, fine, but your fantasies have limited interest to anyone but you, and, frankly, your imagination isn't up to the job of keeping other people interested in them which is why most people here ignore you after a couple of exchanges. It's too boring and tedious.
 
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dad

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Nobody really cares what you think because all you're saying is "in my fantasy alternate universe anything I claim is possible and you can't prove it isn't". Well, fine, but your fantasies have limited interest to anyone but you, and, frankly, your imagination isn't up to the job of keeping people interested in them which is why most people here ignore you after a couple of exchanges. It's too boring and tedious.
No. What I am saying is that your old fables are passe. Busted. So called science has no teeth. So gummin it can't help you here any more.
 
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NGC 6712

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. Inside your theory yes, so? prove that was the case and had to be the only possible scenario?

I frankly don't believe you. I doubt what we see is what you claim and believe. You mean that IF space were space as we know it and our laws applied, THEN we would expect to see what you recite.
So tell us why cold interstellar material should be easily visible? You can believe what the heck you want but you are in error.
Woulda? Coulda? Shoulda? How about prove it was? You can't can you? You just need it to be so in your model I suspect? If not, then go ahead and show us.
Blue supergiants (in fact all stars above about 8500 degree photospheric temperatures) rotate quickly. Only when stars develope a deep surface convection zone can a dynamo mechanism operate that allows angular momentum to be transported and lead to rotational braking of the star. That early type stars are rapid rotators and most late type stars like the Sun are slow rotators has been known for decades. Many early type stars are rotating so fast they are egg shaped and are near break up velocity.
False. Only if what you say was known and correct, rather than just needed and assumed.
What is this needed nonsense. You think everything is some conspiracy. When pretty much every early type star is a fast rotator and thus basic physics implies mass ejected would be at the equatorial region why is this some stretch or conspiracy?
Ha. So we cannot see what you predicted. I rest my case.
In your theory maybe. Convenient.
Whether convenient or not it is also likely the truth. You don't have a case, never have had, never will.
Not sure who you quoted there and were responding to. Not me.
You said some nonsense about if a black hole was there we would never have sen the supernova. God only knows how you came up with that rubbish.
Easy. Newspapers books movies history. Reasonable evidence.
Not at all. All those newspapers and everything in the world was in accelerated time. Your parents didn't realise there lives were but 3 minutes in duration. That is no more silly than the argument you trot out time and time again. In fact it is basically the argument you have been pulling for a decade.
No. That is a lie and unsupportable. That is your story. Nice try.
It is not a lie. It is observable. It is only not accepted when someone puts forth some contrived idea all was different and there is no way of knowing - a very similar idea to your parents lives lasted 3 minutes till you were on the scene. Both are completely made up and unsupported nonsense.
 
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RickG

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And corrected for imaginary dust as needed?

You know dad, it is a complete mystery as to why there are people who have absolutely no knowledge of a subject, insist on pretending that they do. You don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

IT'S CALLED A "BASE LINE". It filters out the extraneous noise. It is used in all areas of spectroscopy and chemistry.

naa_over_fig5.gif


And here is a portion of your light curve. Individual peaks identify specific isotopes.


But it did delay us supposedly seeing things related to the claimed decay for considerable time...and etc...
And was it seen from day one and exactly fit what C56 or whatever would do..not affected by dust or anything else?
There were a number of isotope decays observed by Knodlseder, et al 2000. They include:

57Ni
56Ni
59Fe
7Be
56Co
56C0
22Na
60Co
44Ti
26Al
60Fe

There are also many more (2000+) subsequent research papers verifying this and more. Here are some with full access:

1990MNRAS.245..570V Page 570
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0112405
1991ApJ...368L..31W Page L31
1992ApJ...384L..33S Page L33
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0005513
1989A&A...224..117L Page 117


Now if you can clearly demo your claim here, it might help. If you are correct...fine. Let's have a clear look. Were your rays visible from day 1 then, doing exactly what was expected..yes or no?
What I have posted so far in previous posts, this post, and the above links are a clear demonstration that you are grasping at straws and doing nothing more than MAKING STUFF UP.
 
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Tiberius

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Yes I am. But I don't scare easy. And the way I figure it, all an expert can do is provide more reasons to question what is supposedly known. You think I never talked to an astro whiz before??

It was over at EVC where I cut my teeth on experts. They had them coming out the wazoo there. Apparently they felt it was a safe place to 'debate' because all opposition was killed by the unfair moderating practices as fast almost as they could post. Bring it.

Oh my goodness, you're trying to scare me now?

You make wild claims, then provide nothing to support those claims. Then you tell me that you are still reasonable, DESPITE the fact that you hold a position that not only has no reason to believe it, but requires the violation of pretty much everything that we know to be a fact. And on top of that, you can't even tell me how your idea works!

So go ahead and try to be scary. You're like a little kitten arching its back, looking like a bottle brush.

You really want to get me scared? Show me some actual evidence.
 
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Tiberius

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No. What I am saying is that your old fables are passe. Busted. So called science has no teeth. So gummin it can't help you here any more.

You've yet to show us any teeth in your ideas. Meanwhile, science (by virtue of its proven results) has very sharp teeth indeed.
 
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dad

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You know dad, it is a complete mystery as to why there are people who have absolutely no knowledge of a subject, insist on pretending that they do. You don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

IT'S CALLED A "BASE LINE". It filters out the extraneous noise. It is used in all areas of spectroscopy and chemistry.
OK, so how do you filter stuff out from the sn81987a data?
And here is a portion of your light curve. Individual peaks identify specific isotopes.


There were a number of isotope decays observed by Knodlseder, et al 2000. They include:

57Ni
56Ni
59Fe
7Be
56Co
56C0
22Na
60Co
44Ti
26Al
60Fe

There are also many more (2000+) subsequent research papers verifying this and more. Here are some with full access:

1990MNRAS.245..570V Page 570
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0112405
1991ApJ...368L..31W Page L31
1992ApJ...384L..33S Page L33
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0005513
1989A&A...224..117L Page 117
Ok so you can't talk about sn1987a now? You decided to resort to a spamathon session? How can we look at the simple facts of one example and what dust or other factors is used if you jump around like a flea?
What I have posted so far in previous posts, this post, and the above links are a clear demonstration that you are grasping at straws and doing nothing more than MAKING STUFF UP.
No it is a demo of you dog jumping like a flea. Stand still and make a point.
 
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dad

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You've yet to show us any teeth in your ideas. Meanwhile, science (by virtue of its proven results) has very sharp teeth indeed.
As far as knowing the laws of the past, it is gumming it all the way. In the dark, and with both hands tied behind it's back no less.
 
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dad

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So tell us why cold interstellar material should be easily visible? You can believe what the heck you want but you are in error.
I never said that. Why not address what is being said rather than talking weird. By the way, why after seven years did you start debating again, and on a Christian forum no less?
Blue supergiants (in fact all stars above about 8500 degree photospheric temperatures) rotate quickly.

Source? Example?
Only when stars develope a deep surface convection zone can a dynamo mechanism operate that allows angular momentum to be transported and lead to rotational braking of the star.
That is your attempt to explain things, yes. Name one star that did any such thing?



That early type stars are rapid rotators and most late type stars like the Sun are slow rotators has been known for decades.
False. It is not known even as we speak. Really. In fact there are no late or early type stars That is in your dark imagination.

Many early type stars are rotating so fast they are egg shaped and are near break up velocity.
Name one.
What is this needed nonsense. You think everything is some conspiracy. When pretty much every early type star is a fast rotator and thus basic physics implies mass ejected would be at the equatorial region why is this some stretch or conspiracy?
How do we determine a star rotates fast? Heck you can't even tell us how far any star is. Nor how big. Nor what it is made of!
Whether convenient or not it is also likely the truth. You don't have a case, never have had, never will.
Childish and vague.
You said some nonsense about if a black hole was there we would never have sen the supernova. God only knows how you came up with that rubbish.
I doubt I said that. I said that the neutron star you promised is not there. Neither is the plan B black hole, You struck out.
Not at all. All those newspapers and everything in the world was in accelerated time. Your parents didn't realise there lives were but 3 minutes in duration. That is no more silly than the argument you trot out time and time again. In fact it is basically the argument you have been pulling for a decade.
Oh great. We finally get an actual astrophysicist and he is talking foolishness.
It is not a lie. It is observable.
really? Where can we observe it?

It is only not accepted when someone puts forth some contrived idea all was different and there is no way of knowing - a very similar idea to your parents lives lasted 3 minutes till you were on the scene. Both are completely made up and unsupported nonsense.
Absurd. The fact is that the universe is very spiritual. That is known from the bible. Just because you want far away space to be able to contain only physical, 3 dimensional objects does not mean that all space obeys your wishes. Did you get too much 'education' to be able too admit you do not know?
 
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NGC 6712

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dad said:
And besides, black holes tend to swallow everything in their vicinity, supernovas included. If there was a black hole where Sanduleak used to be, we would never have seen the supernova that produced it in the first place. Yet we did, and its hollow remnant haunts us still. "

That is your quote from a page back. Now why would we not see the supernova?
 
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