experiencing god...

[Ana the Ist]

I'll tell you how I define God:
Perfectly Holy: He is perfectly pure
All-knowing: He knows everything that has, is, and will happen/ing/ed
Almighty: He has control over everything and everything is sustained and held together by Him
Omnipresent & Independent: He is everywhere at once, timeless, and does not consists of anything of the universe. Physical laws do not apply to Him unless otherwise stated (i.e. in Jesus Christ's temporary situation)
Just: His standard is perfectly righteous, honest, and equal.
Loving: His love for His creation boggles minds and "drove" Him to willingly die for our sins
Sentient, Eternal & self-existent: He always existed, always will, and is conscious of His existence and lone status of God.
Triune: He is one God, three co-equal, distinct but not separate "Persons."
Mind-boggling: No one can fully know Him outside of the ways He has revealed Himself to the world;
etc.


Through prayer and the Holy Spirit.


Because the "feeling" never ended, changed my life for the better since I started to serve Jesus, follow Him, and study the Bible.


The "voice" I hear guides me to do things I would never do of my own power and will, such as reading the Bible constantly, thinking when I read, apply it to my life, and help others who are in need. If I had never felt the "feeling" of the Holy Spirit moving in me, I would just be in my room all day, watching TV, and doing homework. I wouldn't have the compassion for other people I do after finding Jesus.

Hooray! Thanks for being the first to answer ChristianT! I would ask for clarification on a couple things though. Almighty-is your god constrained by logic? For example, can he make 1+1=3? Can he make a square circle? You said you experience him through prayer and the holy spirit, to me prayer seems a method by which he experiences you, can you elaborate? Also, I admit I don't really understand what is meant by "holy spirit". Can you tell me what this is? Is it a feeling? An actual entity you can see? Omnipresent-how is it that he is everywhere at once and yet does not consist of anything in the universe? How do you manage to perceive anything not of this universe? TImeless-does god experience the passage of time? When you say you "hear" god, do you mean you hear an actual voice speaking in your head? And again, how do you distinguish this voice as god? Thanks again for your reply.

 

[ChristianT]

Hooray! Thanks for being the first to answer ChristianT! I would ask for clarification on a couple things though. Almighty-is your god constrained by logic? For example, can he make 1+1=3?

No, He's not restricted to logic. However, you must remember that He is the Creator of the universe: this includes logic. Because of His omniscience, He knows what logic would be best used in His universe. The logic He established the universe to work under, He called "good," or more accurately, complete.

Can he make a square circle?

Not under the logical rules He established in the universe under.

You said you experience him through prayer and the holy spirit, to me prayer seems a method by which he experiences you, can you elaborate?

Prayer is the time where people say words or thoughts directed to God, no? Since God knows everything, we understand we aren't informing Him when we pray, most of the time God uses prayer to tell us things we may not know about ourself, or use it to make Himself known among the people. However, prayer does not work as a "button" or switch that makes or forces God to do anything. He chooses which prayers to listen to and knows which are truly sincere or not.

Also, I admit I don't really understand what is meant by "holy spirit". Can you tell me what this is? Is it a feeling? An actual entity you can see?

I'm glad you are honest enough to admit this. The Holy Spirit is God Himself (hence my capitalization ). The Spirit indwells all true believers of Jesus Christ, moves through us (which means He guides our desires and decisions to match His will that He informs of through the Spirit), and is unlimited (it doesn't matter how many believers in Jesus Christ there are, He can indwell em all). You can't see Him, but His actions 'speak louder than words.'

Omnipresent-how is it that he is everywhere at once and yet does not consist of anything in the universe?

He is a spirit and does not consist of any physical atoms or object. His spirit is "infinity-sized."

How do you manage to perceive anything not of this universe?

Just like you perceive anything of this universe. Think w/ me for a second. Do you sometimes long for some desires of the flesh, innocent as they may be (such as hunger, sex, excretion, etc.)? Do you feel some things exist, but not physically (consisting of atoms), such as love, truth, logic, justice? Some people have a longing for a Higher Power, and if we have a desire for something, it's usually because it exists. Have you ever personally or known anyone [over the age of ten] to genuinely desire for a "flying spaghetti monster," pixies, et cetera? It's not proof God exists, sure, but it's proof that belief in God can be logical.

Timeless-does God experience the passage of time?

In the time that He was Jesus (doctrine of the Incarnation), I believe He may have experienced time, but as God, He still had foreknowledge of events and decisions. Timelessness isn't really necessary to believe in God, it's more of a reason why He's omniscient.

When you say you "hear" god, do you mean you hear an actual voice speaking in your head?

No. I wish I could hear His voice, but I believe if I did:

1. Its purity and might would kill me
2. or I'd be in heaven already.

No, it's more of an idea or feeling that is "sewn" into my thinking but not a result of my thinking.

And again, how do you distinguish this voice as god?

It urges me to do things that I would never in a million years do (such as reading the Bible for fun! :o or helping out the poor or people in need... I'm naturally lazy)

Thanks again for your reply.

You're welcome, I first thought only people who prescribed to your definition of God could post. Then I re-read it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, He's not restricted to logic. However, you must remember that He is the Creator of the universe: this includes logic. Because of His omniscience, He knows what logic would be best used in His universe. The logic He established the universe to work under, He called "good," or more accurately, complete.


Not under the logical rules He established in the universe under.



Prayer is the time where people say words or thoughts directed to God, no? Since God knows everything, we understand we aren't informing Him when we pray, most of the time God uses prayer to tell us things we may not know about ourself, or use it to make Himself known among the people. However, prayer does not work as a "button" or switch that makes or forces God to do anything. He chooses which prayers to listen to and knows which are truly sincere or not.


I'm glad you are honest enough to admit this. The Holy Spirit is God Himself (hence my capitalization ). The Spirit indwells all true believers of Jesus Christ, moves through us (which means He guides our desires and decisions to match His will that He informs of through the Spirit), and is unlimited (it doesn't matter how many believers in Jesus Christ there are, He can indwell em all). You can't see Him, but His actions 'speak louder than words.'


He is a spirit and does not consist of any physical atoms or object. His spirit is "infinity-sized."


Just like you perceive anything of this universe. Think w/ me for a second. Do you sometimes long for some desires of the flesh, innocent as they may be (such as hunger, sex, excretion, etc.)? Do you feel some things exist, but not physically (consisting of atoms), such as love, truth, logic, justice? Some people have a longing for a Higher Power, and if we have a desire for something, it's usually because it exists. Have you ever personally or known anyone [over the age of ten] to genuinely desire for a "flying spaghetti monster," pixies, et cetera? It's not proof God exists, sure, but it's proof that belief in God can be logical.


In the time that He was Jesus (doctrine of the Incarnation), I believe He may have experienced time, but as God, He still had foreknowledge of events and decisions. Timelessness isn't really necessary to believe in God, it's more of a reason why He's omniscient.


No. I wish I could hear His voice, but I believe if I did:

1. Its purity and might would kill me
2. or I'd be in heaven already.

No, it's more of an idea or feeling that is "sewn" into my thinking but not a result of my thinking.


It urges me to do things that I would never in a million years do (such as reading the Bible for fun! :o or helping out the poor or people in need... I'm naturally lazy)


You're welcome, I first thought only people who prescribed to your definition of God could post. Then I re-read it.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't agree with your idea of perception, but that hardly matters since I understand it. I believe the physiological desires (hunger, sex) are easily explained through physiological processes. Love is a feeling that I know exists because I've felt it. The others, truth, logic, and justice are ideas that exist solely in the mind. It's a deeper issue that I'd be happy to discuss in another forum. That said, I don't think wanting something to exist implies it does. But aside from this I have no problem with your explanation save one more thing to clarify.
You said you believe god guides you, but why would he need to? He already knows every outcome in your life, every choice you will make, and he controls them...correct? So why the need to "guide" you? It implies you have a choice to make of which the outcome is uncertain. How can this be if god is all knowing?
Aside from this last thing, your answer has exceeded all of my hopes. Thanks again.

 

[ChristianT]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't agree with your idea of perception, but that hardly matters since I understand it. I believe the physiological desires (hunger, sex) are easily explained through physiological processes. Love is a feeling that I know exists because I've felt it. The others, truth, logic, and justice are ideas that exist solely in the mind. It's a deeper issue that I'd be happy to discuss in another forum. That said, I don't think wanting something to exist implies it does. But aside from this I have no problem with your explanation save one more thing to clarify.
You said you believe god guides you, but why would he need to? He already knows every outcome in your life, every choice you will make, and he controls them...correct? So why the need to "guide" you? It implies you have a choice to make of which the outcome is uncertain. How can this be if god is all knowing?
Aside from this last thing, your answer has exceeded all of my hopes. Thanks again.

Ok. God knows everything, and works in everything. But He doesn't force anyone to do anything. Ever heard of sin? That happens because us humans have a free choice to sin or not. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean I am. Of course, God isn't surprised at our choices, but they are freely made. you're welcome.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok. God knows everything, and works in everything. But He doesn't force anyone to do anything. Ever heard of sin? That happens because us humans have a free choice to sin or not. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean I am. Of course, God isn't surprised at our choices, but they are freely made. you're welcome.

Ok...I don't think that resolves my question, however, I'm sure you think it does. Since no debate is allowed, I'll let it go and thank you again for your response.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Correction, debate isn't allowed. *

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ugh, nevermind

 

[razeontherock]

I have frequently heard god described in such a nebulous way that it leaves me confused. The description is as follows, god is timeless, non-physical, outside this universe, everywhere, invisible, limitless in power and knowledge. Sometimes all these descriptors are present, other times just some. Obviously if this isn't how you define/describe god then the following question doesn't apply. How do you experience or perceive such a being? Also, to those who claim to have "felt" god or heard him "speak" to you, how do you know the feeling or emotion you experienced are not entirely natural and not in any way related to god? How do you know the voice you "hear" isn't simply your own conscience? Please consider carefully before answering what it means to think you experienced god, and what it means to know. I'm interested in those who "know".

Excellent questions!

"How do you experience or perceive such a being?"

I point out it's amazing that anyone ever has, and that He has intentionally "stacked the deck against Himself." I also point out that essentially every culture, in every time, has, to some extent or another, perceived something of Him.

Less frequently I point out that our "spirit" (another nebulous concept, I know) has 5 senses just like our bodies do, or at least something that is analogous to them. Some people are more "gifted" in this area, while others are "third eye blind." Neither is superior, and it would seem society needs all of the above, and all points along that continuum. So those are the means of perception. (Faith is the parallel to sight, Hope to smell)

The thing to keep in mind, is we do not experience "HIM;" but at best, a small facet of Him, at any given time. The perceived contradictions are meant to accumulate, and reveal a pattern. Maybe as we continue to kill each other over it less, we will all see the pattern more clearly

"how do you know the feeling or emotion you experienced are not entirely natural and not in any way related to god? How do you know the voice you "hear" isn't simply your own conscience?"

Let me start with conscience. Is it the voice of God? Does it exist in His "realm?" Is it that aspect of us that was "created in His image, and in His likeness?" Connecting this to your previous question, I do indeed think that when we experience G-d, it involves our conscience. What's going on with that, is what makes the story of Adam and Eve in the garden so perfectly relevant for us today.

Not only do I think all religions value conscience, but "to thine own self be true" represents wisdom of the ages.

Now you ask about feelings / emotions being our own rather than from God, but what about thoughts? We could probably ALL come up with examples of people clearly advancing their own agenda, while they zealously thought they served God. So I point out this is a most valid concern, and is a real concern for every one of us.

This part isn't easy. In C, the way of going about this includes:

"Where no counsel [is], the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors [there is] safety."

That doesn't mean being sheeple, but being part of a good Church, with people you know and respect, some of which deserve to be leaders, is part of the process. So is "waiting upon the Lord," which is actually an active process. So is knowing the Scripture, to see if we are aligned with it or not.

Then there's this rendering of a passage:

"let the Peace of God rule like an umpire in your hearts."

 

[razeontherock]

You said you believe god guides you, but why would he need to? He already knows every outcome in your life, every choice you will make, and he controls them...correct? So why the need to "guide" you? It implies you have a choice to make of which the outcome is uncertain. How can this be if god is all knowing?

Another excellent question, that I have seen some C's class as a "mystery," or even a paradox. Yet I understand it, and see it simply. Which doesn't mean that I can explain it.

Have you ever worked your way through the 10 dimensions of string theory?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Excellent questions!

"How do you experience or perceive such a being?"

I point out it's amazing that anyone ever has, and that He has intentionally "stacked the deck against Himself." I also point out that essentially every culture, in every time, has, to some extent or another, perceived something of Him.

Less frequently I point out that our "spirit" (another nebulous concept, I know) has 5 senses just like our bodies do, or at least something that is analogous to them. Some people are more "gifted" in this area, while others are "third eye blind." Neither is superior, and it would seem society needs all of the above, and all points along that continuum. So those are the means of perception. (Faith is the parallel to sight, Hope to smell)

The thing to keep in mind, is we do not experience "HIM;" but at best, a small facet of Him, at any given time. The perceived contradictions are meant to accumulate, and reveal a pattern. Maybe as we continue to kill each other over it less, we will all see the pattern more clearly

"how do you know the feeling or emotion you experienced are not entirely natural and not in any way related to god? How do you know the voice you "hear" isn't simply your own conscience?"

Let me start with conscience. Is it the voice of God? Does it exist in His "realm?" Is it that aspect of us that was "created in His image, and in His likeness?" Connecting this to your previous question, I do indeed think that when we experience G-d, it involves our conscience. What's going on with that, is what makes the story of Adam and Eve in the garden so perfectly relevant for us today.

Not only do I think all religions value conscience, but "to thine own self be true" represents wisdom of the ages.

Now you ask about feelings / emotions being our own rather than from God, but what about thoughts? We could probably ALL come up with examples of people clearly advancing their own agenda, while they zealously thought they served God. So I point out this is a most valid concern, and is a real concern for every one of us.

This part isn't easy. In C, the way of going about this includes:

"Where no counsel [is], the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors [there is] safety."

That doesn't mean being sheeple, but being part of a good Church, with people you know and respect, some of which deserve to be leaders, is part of the process. So is "waiting upon the Lord," which is actually an active process. So is knowing the Scripture, to see if we are aligned with it or not.

Then there's this rendering of a passage:

"let the Peace of God rule like an umpire in your hearts."

THat's am interesting answer if I understood it correctly, you seem to think that what we might describe as "natural" are in fact examples of god's interaction with us humans. Its nice in that it requires no proof, merely belief that you are right. THanks for weighing in.

 

[razeontherock]

if I understood it correctly, you seem to think that what we might describe as "natural" are in fact examples of god's interaction with us

Did I give that understanding? I don't recall meaning to, but it is correct. Not convincing though. I certainly needed stuff WAY outside those bounds ...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Did I give that understanding? I don't recall meaning to, but it is correct. Not convincing though. I certainly needed stuff WAY outside those bounds ...

What was it that convinced you then?

 

[razeontherock]

Hoo boy; that'd take a while ...

 

[Tinker Grey]

How would one know that a non-natural event occurred? If some event occurred, by what means would we determine that it was non-natural?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

How would one know that a non-natural event occurred? If some event occurred, by what means would we determine that it was non-natural?

Discernment?

Of course, that would be supernatural, and therefore rejected by methodological naturalism. But if you say this rejection proves it (supernatural discernment) does not exist, metaphysically, are you not simply assuming what you are deigning to prove by rejecting something on the grounds it's not in line with your habitual way of thought, seeing only what you want to see?

Hence the mention of confirmation bias....

I am wondering which comes first the chicken (metahysical naturalism) or the egg (methodological naturalism)? Epistemologically does one justify the other, or what?

Btw this is a lighthearted debate on my part.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I understand what you are saying, but I still don't know how one discerns the non-natural nor do I know what I should expect to observe or even how one observes with doing so through our senses.

If there were a non-natural event, what would it be like? The impact on my senses is natural. How am I detecting the non-natural aspect of the event? Does my brain get a tickle in some portion thereof that is only tickled by non-natural things?

I would have to answer your question "Is the question valid" with no.

As to the chicken and the egg, I don't know what metaphysical naturalism is. All I have ever observed is natural. What reason do I have to incorporate the imaginings (as I perceive them, rightly or wrongly) of other people?

 

[Tiberius]

How would one know that a non-natural event occurred? If some event occurred, by what means would we determine that it was non-natural?

If it violated some natural law, then it would suggest a supernatural explanation.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I would think it would suggest that we didn't correctly infer what there was to know of natural law.

 

[variant]

With this in mind, what is the relationship between methodological and metaphysical naturalism? Could natural methodology ever confirm non-natural events? If not, is there a structural bias in science, allowing it to see only the natural? I mean this may not be a bad thing, but is the question valid?

No, science is not built to test the untestable.

If you have an unfalcefiable belief it is not in the realm of scientific inquiry.

 

[Tiberius]

I would think it would suggest that we didn't correctly infer what there was to know of natural law.

True, that would be the most likely explanation, but until we had established that, we'd be forced to consider the possibility, however unlikely.