Why would an atheist come to Christ, if not to avoid hell?

[JGG]

@soothfish: great post.

Well the forum has a purpose and a statement of purpose and a set of rules to facilitate that purpose. It seems that your purpose for using this website is different. What is your purpose for using this website? If you don't mind telling me I'm sure it would help me to respond to you accordingly.

Originally it was simply trying to get others to accurately understand my point of view, to have them actually understand where I'm coming from, and why I believe, or disbelieve what I do. However, as it became clearer that was just never going to happen, I started watching why that was.

For me it was because I love life in all it's forms, even the mosquito and fly are marvelous creatures despite that I don't tolerate their interaction with me. So I love the one who gave me life and who gave life to all of us, this is why I approached Him asking to be shown the truth. In fact when I made that appeal to Him I specifically asked for the truth so I could solve the problems created by religion. I think I've told you this before, I was motivated after watching that movie "Religulous" and becoming so upset by the religious freaks who are trying to bring on armageddon.

I agree, life, and the universe in itself is an incredible thing to marvel at, to wonder about, and even attempt to comprehend. If there was an "intelligence" behind it's creation, it must be so massive, and unfathomable that if you told me you knew what it was, I would never believe you. The universe itself defies comprehension, a creator could only be moreso. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist.

But of course, within two days of now this glimpse of who I am, will be lost on those who read it, and I will be just another one of "them."

Having said this, I don't know whether you would be motivated in the same way, as I understand some people just don't have as much love for life.

It motivates curiosity, but not the immediate need for an answer.

I was referring to your attitude. You have a bad attitude about Christianity and you've explained why that is. Still though, you seem to be content with holding grudges instead of forgiving, this is why I said you seem to see the glass half empty.

Yes, I absolutely have a negative view of Christians. I believe it's justified, I am yet to see much of anything to make it seem positive, I would characterize that as glass all-the-way-empty. And yes, I'm generally content to hold grudges. I've learned, the hard way, that those who have wronged me once, will do so again, and again, if I let them. Forgiving people has not turned out well for me so far.

Actually I am more open minded than that.

Wait, you believe in reincarnation?

I agree that knowing the reality of hell will motivate you to obey Jesus, but don't think it is a valid draw card because it's extremely inefficient. You have just the right way of making that obvious.

Please yourself.

That's what you look for, that's even the energy that you draw out of them. I state this factually because you even do it to me!

I considered that. Which is why for the past several months, I have been primarily lurking in the Christians Only sections where I have no impact on what people say, and continued my other online searches. Suffice it to say, the results have not altered my opinion with a sunnier outlook on Christians. There was one tiny flame of hope, but it was quickly extinguished.

It's actually positive in my opinion. I see an opportunity to identify their misunderstanding of Christianity and show them the truth in the light of Christ. You may think that is negative, but I think that is only because you have a negative attitude toward Christianity.

I think that you and I have a fundamentally different understanding of what Christianity is. This is evident because I view it as a good thing whereas you don't. I don't believe this is because we are genetically different, I believe it is because of the experiences we have had. Those experiences have turned me into a Christian and you into an atheist. Based on that understanding I cannot rightfully pass judgment upon you saying that you are somehow inferior merely because you believe differently than I do. What do you say to that?

I would say that I have a harshly negative view of modern Christianity, and Christians to be sure. However, I think that Christianity has been perverted so far from what it once was that it's not even worth considering them the same thing. That hell has become the central concept of Christianity, and "the only reason one would believe" demonstrates that to me. I consider that at one time Christianity was not a religion, but a philosophical viewpoint, not of God, but of humanity, and society.

You've done that before and you were wrong. See the mistake you have made is to say that the culture you hate is "my" culture and you even italicized the word "your".

Actually, I meant the collective "your." Not you personally, Christians as a group.

I'll jog your memory, you said "I'm inclined to believe in something its just not your god". You were wrong, the God you want to believe in is the same God as I believe in, but you have not yet overcome the adversary. God is a different entity to him who teaches those to preach hate in the name of Jesus.

I disagree, and here's why: The "God" I'm most inclined to believe in could not, or would not, or should not even have an adversary. Even the concept that this "thing" could have anything that approaches something adversarial just wouldn't fit.

That is very good thinking, to think that nobody is worthy of such a perfect rest. The apostle John wrote this:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You are wrong though, because Jesus even said in that very quote that the prophets will be there. He even said there would be others, and He was instructing His disciples that they must keep their eyes on the goal. Salvation certainly is possible according to Jesus.

Ah, but as I have recently been reminded, there have been no prophets since Christ, and there will be no more. Salvation is no longer possible for any of us. That was my meaning.

 

[Believe the Impossible]

I hope you read Ray's answer, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that for us who have made a decision at some stage to reject God, that for us to be reunited to Him is immediate salvation. If I had to condense the whole purpose of Christianity according to the bible, I would say it is:

"for those who are wheat growing among the weeds to be harvested at the end of the age, and to inherit the kingdom set apart for them from the beginning of time. According to Jesus, those of the resurrected who survive the judgment of the great white throne will enjoy endless life where there is no more death, suffering or pain. He will wipe all the tears from our eyes and we will inhabit earth with Jesus as King. (Revelation 21)."

Having the assurance that Jesus has forgiven our trespasses and will vouch for us in front of The Father is what I deem salvation to be. I am always going to tell you that you must obtain this assurance from Jesus personally, not from a church rite. The reason for this is because only God can see the motive of your heart and render judgment accordingly, whereas anyone can be fooled by sweet-talk and flattery.

Regarding atheism and salvation, it's pretty obvious that if you were aware of your own salvation you would identify yourself as being a Christian disciple rather than an atheist (feel free to correct me if you can).

Does that help? It doesn't conflict with your reading does it?

This! The scripture above describes an ideal world, no? Is this not what every single human being professes to want...peace on earth, no death, no suffering, pure and unadulterated love? This alone would send me running to the Christian God, not out of fear, but out of all that I seek in this world but have come to realize will never happen. Mankind is an evil, evil seed, despite the good people we meet and for those who are not, they will continue to hamper anything man feels they can do to create such a utopia.

To have this, one has only to seek God and His truth which leads to His son, Jesus Christ who in one swing defeats death, frees us from the guilt of all that is ugly in us, and brings us face to face with our Creator; all of this with the promise of the perfect world He intended for us from the very beginning. Although our God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, He still made provision for any, who so choose, to once again take hold of what He awaits to give us.

God 'calls' each and everyone of us and it is us who choose to ignore His 'small, still voice'. He has made provision, without polluting anyone's freewill for all to see and feel His presence in this existence, i.e.) His creation which is most perplexing at times, the love and good we can and do see in people and finally Jesus Christ coming into the world and dying for each and every one of us. All of this within the confines of one book which has stood the test of time and has not been thwarted or destroyed by a single person.

Everything one needs to seek the Lord has been laid out, now it is just a matter of choice in allowing Him to reveal Himself, but the calling has always been there.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
New International Version (NIV)
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

 

[Soothfish]

How did you obtain this opinion?

It may take a bit more explaining.

"Someone who is happy being an atheist will not lose a minute of sleep over that child dying in the basement. They either don't really care or don't spend anytime thinking about the world as it is. If they did, they would each be a depressed atheist."

This is more a description of my former self than anything else. Maybe others can relate to it or maybe not.

 

[Soothfish]

I agree, life, and the universe in itself is an incredible thing to marvel at, to wonder about, and even attempt to comprehend. If there was an "intelligence" behind it's creation, it must be so massive, and unfathomable that if you told me you knew what it was, I would never believe you. The universe itself defies comprehension, a creator could only be moreso. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist.

But of course, within two days of now this glimpse of who I am, will be lost on those who read it, and I will be just another one of "them."

It is not easy to believe and trust in God. It's one of the most difficult things anyone can ever do. I'm still struggling with trusting him, probably because I'm very very new at this. Anyone who tells you it is easy is lying to you, themselves, or both. It is not confined entirely to a philosophical or scientific argument. This type of faith involves going to something that is vastly beyond the capacity of our primitive animal civilization to comprehend. We are these puny creatures that use plant matter for fuel and yet we are meant to come to know a power that is an immeasurable distance from anything that human science has so far discovered. That is not easy. Period. This is why Christians are called "holy fools" by the apostle Paul.

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21)

What we are called to do is outrageously big. Fortunately, we no longer have to worry about holding the burden of sin along with this.

Yes, I absolutely have a negative view of Christians. I believe it's justified, I am yet to see much of anything to make it seem positive, I would characterize that as glass all-the-way-empty. And yes, I'm generally content to hold grudges. I've learned, the hard way, that those who have wronged me once, will do so again, and again, if I let them. Forgiving people has not turned out well for me so far.

I also have an extremely negative view of humanity but not just one group. You will continue to find Christians, even ones with good intentions, who turn to sin and wickedness. I still have to confess of my sins every day. However, Christianity is unique among the world's religions. It is not neutral with regards to human nature nor does it flatter us. Quite the contrary. At the core of the doctrine, people are self-absorbed nasty rebellious creatures and only Christ can save them. That's it. It has nothing to do with justifying nasty behavior just because a person calls his or her self a "Christian".

I considered that. Which is why for the past several months, I have been primarily lurking in the Christians Only sections where I have no impact on what people say, and continued my other online searches. Suffice it to say, the results have not altered my opinion with a sunnier outlook on Christians. There was one tiny flame of hope, but it was quickly extinguished.

Do not waste your time trying to find hope with people. We are all flawed and will all disappoint you. Focus entirely upon that which is perfect. It isn't easy and takes considerable practice but it's the way.

I would say that I have a harshly negative view of modern Christianity, and Christians to be sure. However, I think that Christianity has been perverted so far from what it once was that it's not even worth considering them the same thing. That hell has become the central concept of Christianity, and "the only reason one would believe" demonstrates that to me.

Many western churches are extremely corrupt. They are morally confused and willfully ignorant of scripture. Also, Hell is not a reason to believe but the further away we are from God, the more "hell-like" our existence becomes. You are not that far away or you wouldn't be writing this stuff.

I consider that at one time Christianity was not a religion, but a philosophical viewpoint, not of God, but of humanity, and society.

As a social commentary it is dead-on but Christianity as a philosophy is utter garbage. It says that we are so messed up that we will fail 100% of the time when it comes to finding our own way to true holiness. In terms of practical advice, it doesn't get any worse than that.

The core of the faith is that God is a real physical presence in the universe and he came in the form of an actual human who did actual historical things to save us. Including a few things that amazed hundreds and sometimes thousands of actual people. That is why the New Testament is written almost exclusively in the literary form of a historical document or as letters to real people. It's why 1st century pagans and even high ranking Romans have written about that pesky Jesus cult.

 

[oi_antz]

It may take a bit more explaining.

"Someone who is happy being an atheist will not lose a minute of sleep over that child dying in the basement. They either don't really care or don't spend anytime thinking about the world as it is. If they did, they would each be a depressed atheist."

This is more a description of my former self than anything else. Maybe others can relate to it or maybe not.

Ok, well just keep in mind that we all travel different paths and end up being quite different people at the end of the day. I feel it is important to keep that in mind instead of making sweeping statements of condemnation against a type of people. For as many people are atheist, as many reasons must exist why someone might become atheist.

 

[oi_antz]

Originally it was simply trying to get others to accurately understand my point of view, to have them actually understand where I'm coming from, and why I believe, or disbelieve what I do. However, as it became clearer that was just never going to happen, I started watching why that was.

Thank you, I wouldn't have guessed it but I can see that now.

I agree, life, and the universe in itself is an incredible thing to marvel at, to wonder about, and even attempt to comprehend. If there was an "intelligence" behind it's creation, it must be so massive, and unfathomable that if you told me you knew what it was, I would never believe you. The universe itself defies comprehension, a creator could only be moreso. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist.

This is precisely why it is so difficult to know God, and why so many people testify that they don't hear Him. In fact if you have a conscience then you are capable of hearing God, but some people train themselves not to hear Him because they don't like what He tells them.

But of course, within two days of now this glimpse of who I am, will be lost on those who read it, and I will be just another one of "them."

Sad isn't it, people identify us by our faith icon instead of our name.

It motivates curiosity, but not the immediate need for an answer.

Ok

Yes, I absolutely have a negative view of Christians. I believe it's justified, I am yet to see much of anything to make it seem positive, I would characterize that as glass all-the-way-empty. And yes, I'm generally content to hold grudges. I've learned, the hard way, that those who have wronged me once, will do so again, and again, if I let them. Forgiving people has not turned out well for me so far.

Perhaps there is a fine line between holding a grudge and learning a lesson. The reluctance to forgive actually does more harm to ourselves than to anyone else.

Wait, you believe in reincarnation?

No I don't, it clearly contradicts what the prophets of the bible have said.

I considered that. Which is why for the past several months, I have been primarily lurking in the Christians Only sections where I have no impact on what people say, and continued my other online searches. Suffice it to say, the results have not altered my opinion with a sunnier outlook on Christians. There was one tiny flame of hope, but it was quickly extinguished.

Yes, there are many many Christians who really don't know what God expects of them. These are those who have sought the affirmation of their peers, I keep telling you about that distinction, what do you make of it?

I would say that I have a harshly negative view of modern Christianity, and Christians to be sure. However, I think that Christianity has been perverted so far from what it once was that it's not even worth considering them the same thing. That hell has become the central concept of Christianity, and "the only reason one would believe" demonstrates that to me. I consider that at one time Christianity was not a religion, but a philosophical viewpoint, not of God, but of humanity, and society.

Actually Christianity began with Jesus Christ. It was absolutely everything to do with God, humanity and society. This verse says it all:

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Actually, I meant the collective "your." Not you personally, Christians as a group.

Well I can't agree that we are referring to the same thing then.

I disagree, and here's why: The "God" I'm most inclined to believe in could not, or would not, or should not even have an adversary. Even the concept that this "thing" could have anything that approaches something adversarial just wouldn't fit.

I didn't say that God has an adversary, I said that you have an adversary!

Ah, but as I have recently been reminded, there have been no prophets since Christ, and there will be no more. Salvation is no longer possible for any of us. That was my meaning.

Heresy.

 

[Philothei]

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[someguy14]

Why would an atheist come to Christ

Common sense.

If one is truely interested in discovering the truth and agrees with truth, that one will agree that the teachings of Jesus are of truth.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi JGG, I have been thinking about you and I think I didn't really address you fully in my last reply. In particular you said this:

I agree, life, and the universe in itself is an incredible thing to marvel at, to wonder about, and even attempt to comprehend. If there was an "intelligence" behind it's creation, it must be so massive, and unfathomable that if you told me you knew what it was, I would never believe you. The universe itself defies comprehension, a creator could only be moreso. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist.

But of course, within two days of now this glimpse of who I am, will be lost on those who read it, and I will be just another one of "them."

I feel to press you on this point because it demonstrates that you have a reverence for God. These verses are relevant:

King James Version (KJV)

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

11 No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 12 And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. 14 But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. 16 For,
“Who can know the LORD’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to teach him?”
But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.

Read those words carefully, because I think Paul put a lot of care into writing them.


What I think you need to establish is an understanding that Jesus had just the right circumstances to trust God 100%, which is not something that everyone can do. Jesus even rebuked His disciples for their lack of faith, and they were those who had witnessed His miracles such as the feeding of 5,000. It's a far cry from the faith we must fester on 2,000 years worth of rumour. But take a look at this series, it might take an hour to watch the entire thing but it should benefit your understanding of some of the claims that we Christians take to be fact.



The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt.1. - YouTube
The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt. 2 - YouTube

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt. 3 - YouTube
The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt.4 - YouTube

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt. 5 - YouTube

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt.6 - YouTube

The REAL STAR of Bethlehem Pt.7 - YouTube


Another question I pondered since your last comment, if there have been no prophets since Jesus then did the person who made that claim reject that Paul was divinely inspired?

 

[oi_antz]

Hey JGG, I've just been watching it for a second time and I say that if you find that the vids don't kick off hard enough, skip through to part three, that's when he finishes his introduction and gets into the real nuts and bolts and you will find that his approach is much more thorough than simply "believe me because I say so". It's interesting to hear his whole presentation though, I hope you have enough patience and interest to get through it all, you may even find that he's one of those Christian examples you are looking for.

 

[Sketcher]

Avoiding Hell is a very good reason for anyone to become a Christian. There are other very good reasons also.

 

[JGG]

Common sense.

Sense which is common is not necessarily true. This argument is that one should become Christian essentially out of peer pressure. Yes, I agree that is a Christian strategy.

 

[razeontherock]

Excuse me, how did you conflate common sense with peer pressure?

 

[JGG]

Hi JGG, I have been thinking about you and I think I didn't really address you fully in my last reply. In particular you said this:

I feel to press you on this point because it demonstrates that you have a reverence for God. These verses are relevant:

Realize that I look at the God that Christians worship, and from where I stand It is ultimately small. I cannot put stock into a God that loves me, or hates me, or gets angry or jealous. I don't see truth in a God who protects me, or punishes me. Since nearly every God concept tends to revolve around these concepts, I cannot say that I believe in any of those concepts, incuding the Christian one.

At the same time, even the ideas that I'm talking about, as I explained I could never even comprehend. Without comprehension, I cannot say that I believe in it. I just realize that there are things out there that I do not understand, and I marvel at possibility.

What I think you need to establish is an understanding that Jesus had just the right circumstances to trust God 100%, which is not something that everyone can do. Jesus even rebuked His disciples for their lack of faith, and they were those who had witnessed His miracles such as the feeding of 5,000. It's a far cry from the faith we must fester on 2,000 years worth of rumour. But take a look at this series, it might take an hour to watch the entire thing but it should benefit your understanding of some of the claims that we Christians take to be fact.

I admit, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that.

Another question I pondered since your last comment, if there have been no prophets since Jesus then did the person who made that claim reject that Paul was divinely inspired?

I didn't ask.

 

[Faulty]

Realize that I look at the God that Christians worship, and from where I stand It is ultimately small. I cannot put stock into a God that loves me, or hates me, or gets angry or jealous. I don't see truth in a God who protects me, or punishes me. Since nearly every God concept tends to revolve around these concepts, I cannot say that I believe in any of those concepts, incuding the Christian one.

That's interesting. You think God is small because He puts a personal interest in you?

Would you prefer a Creator that ignored you? If a parent showed a personal interest in their children over ignoring them, would you also consider them small?

At the same time, even the ideas that I'm talking about, as I explained I could never even comprehend. Without comprehension, I cannot say that I believe in it. I just realize that there are things out there that I do not understand, and I marvel at possibility.

Atheism is difficult to understand. In the beginning, there was nothing, then nothing happened to nothing, creating everything, then no one organized it, and life popped forward from non-life, meanwhile nothing engineered more complex genetic code through random mutations. Sorry, but even the atheists are searching for their "God particle", because 'nothing' can't do what they need it to do.

Basically, athiesm is a faith that such a particle exists, which really doesn't help unless that particle is also intelligent and eternal, otherwise the search for origins immediately begins again. So, instead of a 'God', they are looking for a particle which looks like God and acts like God, but isn't God.

You ever heard the saying, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"?

 

[Soothfish]

Sense which is common is not necessarily true. This argument is that one should become Christian essentially out of peer pressure. Yes, I agree that is a Christian strategy.

Many early Christians died alone in the dungeons of Diocletian. So they demonstrated an extraordinary RESISTANCE to peer pressure to the point of their own deaths. The opposite of what you claim. This resistance to worldly opinion is at the core of the faith.

This is not to say that peer pressure doesn't happen among Christians but only that is has nothing to do with what it's all supposed to be about.

 

[Soothfish]

Realize that I look at the God that Christians worship, and from where I stand It is ultimately small. I cannot put stock into a God that loves me, or hates me, or gets angry or jealous. I don't see truth in a God who protects me, or punishes me. Since nearly every God concept tends to revolve around these concepts, I cannot say that I believe in any of those concepts, incuding the Christian one.

Are you saying that you are so lowly and worthless that no supreme being could possibly love you? That is an incredibly sad sentiment.

This does seem to be a common worldview among post-modern humanists. They like to proclaim that human beings are bags of particles and therefore worthless from a cosmic perspective. From a scientific perspective we are indeed bags of particles. It's hard to determine where each of them gets the idea that this makes people insignificant and worthless. That's a moral judgment, not a scientific one.

This is rather strange considering that the original Greek humanists were in love with the human being and placed it at the center of all moral and social concerns. Hence the word "humanist".

At the same time, even the ideas that I'm talking about, as I explained I could never even comprehend. Without comprehension, I cannot say that I believe in it. I just realize that there are things out there that I do not understand, and I marvel at possibility.

That is a healthy way of looking at things.

 

[oi_antz]

Realize that I look at the God that Christians worship, and from where I stand It is ultimately small.

Nice to see you back again, I have heard you say this before, and I'm not surprised at all. What you are observing is a human portrait of God, you aren't observing God first hand. Once that happens then you'll know whether God really is as small as your perspective conveys Him.

I cannot put stock into a God that loves me, or hates me, or gets angry or jealous.

Just be aware that you are the one holding the grudge here, not God.

I don't see truth in a God who protects me, or punishes me. Since nearly every God concept tends to revolve around these concepts, I cannot say that I believe in any of those concepts, incuding the Christian one.

A very concise statement, one that shouldn't be ridiculed. Again it comes down to your perspective of God, and we both know that I'm incapable of changing that. On the other hand, God says through the prophets that He will welcome those who will honor Him. This is how Jesus said it:

21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

I'm pretty sure I've shown you this verse before, but perhaps it might mean more in this particular context. The conclusion I think you should draw from this is that when you demonstrate love for God and a willingness to obey Him, then He'll reveal Himself to you and come and make His home with you. Once you encounter The Holy Spirit then you'll get that comprehension you need. That's the comprehension of God that can't be conveyed from one human to another, that only God can do. You are the only one who has the ability to ask Him for that, just as I was the only one who had the ability to open my heart to Him.

Take special note of that terminology "open our heart to God". That describes the process of being born again of the spirit of God. It requires that we put down our guns and surrender to God. Some of us may find it difficult, I know that I haven't felt so hurt as you have.

I have a record of my conversion in fact, it demonstrates that I am one very arrogant person that wouldn't listen to anything someone would tell me. You're a bit more fair in that regard which is why I'm pressing for you to join us again on that book project, I really want to utilize your brain if you would be willing to help with the good cause.

 

[JGG]

That's interesting. You think God is small because He puts a personal interest in you?

I think God is small if It puts an interest in anything to be quite honest.

Would you prefer a Creator that ignored you? If a parent showed a personal interest in their children over ignoring them, would you also consider them small?

Firstly, it's not a matter of preference. It's simply a matter of what I am capable of believing. Certainly a guardian imp who protects me from harm, and brings me good luck is preferable to not. Yet, I still don't believe in guardian imps.

Secondly, to compare the thing I'm vaguely speaking of to a parent would also make it small.

Atheism is difficult to understand. In the beginning, there was nothing, then nothing happened to nothing, creating everything, then no one organized it, and life popped forward from non-life, meanwhile nothing engineered more complex genetic code through random mutations. Sorry, but even the atheists are searching for their "God particle", because 'nothing' can't do what they need it to do.

Scientists are looking for a "God particle." I, and most other atheists, don't really have anything to do with it. I think you'll find that when it comes to the origins of the universe, most atheists are comfortable saying "I don't know." I know I am. However, you need more than "Goddidit" to convince me that there is a God and that It created the universe. It takes far more to convince me that this is a personal God, who loves me or hates me.

Basically, athiesm is a faith that such a particle exists, which really doesn't help unless that particle is also intelligent and eternal, otherwise the search for origins immediately begins again. So, instead of a 'God', they are looking for a particle which looks like God and acts like God, but isn't God.

Again, I don't know. I think scientists may be looking for such things. Possibly from curiosity. Such a particle may exist, it may not. I don't know much about it. I would hardly say I have faith in it. I don't even have a working knowledge of such things.

You ever heard the saying, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"?

Ummm...yes. Have you heard the saying "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog?"

 

[JGG]

Nice to see you back again, I have heard you say this before, and I'm not surprised at all. What you are observing is a human portrait of God, you aren't observing God first hand. Once that happens then you'll know whether God really is as small as your perspective conveys Him.

So you claim, but I don't know that you're viewing God firsthand either. You might very well be delusional for all I know.

Just be aware that you are the one holding the grudge here, not God.

I wouldn't call it a grudge. There are things that I flind plausible, there are things I don't. A personal God is something I don't. God in general I find inplausible, unless we really, really broaden the scope of what God might be. A glorified human I just cannot make big enough to cover the scope of what such an entity might be.

A very concise statement, one that shouldn't be ridiculed. Again it comes down to your perspective of God, and we both know that I'm incapable of changing that. On the other hand, God says through the prophets that He will welcome those who will honor Him. This is how Jesus said it:

Okay, but if I don't have faith in this God, then who are these prophets to me?

I'm pretty sure I've shown you this verse before, but perhaps it might mean more in this particular context. The conclusion I think you should draw from this is that when you demonstrate love for God and a willingness to obey Him, then He'll reveal Himself to you and come and make His home with you. Once you encounter The Holy Spirit then you'll get that comprehension you need. That's the comprehension of God that can't be conveyed from one human to another, that only God can do. You are the only one who has the ability to ask Him for that, just as I was the only one who had the ability to open my heart to Him.

You understand that it all still falls into that same unbelievable God. And bringing it back to the OP, why would I ask God for anything, unless I already believe in Hell?

Take special note of that terminology "open our heart to God". That describes the process of being born again of the spirit of God. It requires that we put down our guns and surrender to God. Some of us may find it difficult, I know that I haven't felt so hurt as you have.

As I've said before, my being hurt by people really has nothing to do with my lack of faith. My lack of faith comes from really scrutinizing why I believe in the things I believe in. I see no reason why I would believe in the kind of God we're talking about.

I have a record of my conversion in fact, it demonstrates that I am one very arrogant person that wouldn't listen to anything someone would tell me. You're a bit more fair in that regard which is why I'm pressing for you to join us again on that book project, I really want to utilize your brain if you would be willing to help with the good cause.

I'm not really sure that's going to happen on my end. Things did not go well last time around, and I'm willing to prophesize that things will continue to get worse.