If I was aborted, would I have gone to heaven?

[bricklayer]

Cuz rite now i see no reason to convert back to christianity. Im a father of a 10 month old, and will raise her agnostic. would it have been better to abort her?

Or are we all born atheist, do aborted fetuses go to hell.

You think a zygote/embryo is a person? Yes?....No?

If i was a sincere christian i would say "yes for abortion!" ...It's a no brainer. Why have the baby when it has the possibility of being corrupted. Just play it safe and abort the baby instead of taking the chance that it may be tortured for 10s of trillions of eons of times trillions.

I would like your logic explained in this regard. thanks

Human life does not begin with conception or birth; it began with creation and is continued through conceptions and births.

All human bodies are composed of human flesh. All human souls are composed of human spirit.

Human spirit died in Adam and Eve. All human beings are conceived with living human flesh and dead human spirit.
We are already spiritually dead at conception; killing the flesh won't change that.

There is no salvation by abortion.
One cannot trade one's body for one's soul. Killing an individual body before it is born cannot resurrect that individual's soul. Only God can do that.

It does not therefore depend on our will but God's.

 

[DaisyDay]

If that is your attitude, play it even safer and never conceive at all.

If it is never conceived, then it would not go to heaven.

Can it be a sacrifice of love on the mother's part to risk her own soul to send as many of her zygotes to heaven as she can?

 

[juvenissun]

If it is never conceived, then it would not go to heaven.

Can it be a sacrifice of love on the mother's part to risk her own soul to send as many of her zygotes to heaven as she can?

Good thinking. Unfortunately it won't work.

If that were the case, the woman only destroyed many chances for spiritual beings to become humans. It is not a sacrifice, not having any merit, but is extremely guilty. She herself might not even be saved.

 

[Buy Bologna]

It seems that too many theist here are avoiding the ultimate answer.

How is a 6 month pre mature birth different from one at 9 months? So a baby at 6 months in the womb isn't a person to god like someone who is just born at 9 months?........ LOL!

Let's make this a YES or NO question for right now.

Are you for abortion? Yes or No?

Do I go to heaven......or hell. Yes or no?

 

[juvenissun]

It seems that too many theist here are avoiding the ultimate answer.

How is a 6 month pre mature birth different from one at 9 months? So a baby at 6 months in the womb isn't a person to god like someone who is just born at 9 months?........ LOL!

Let's make this a YES or NO question for right now.

Are you for abortion? Yes or No?

Do I go to heaven......or hell. Yes or no?

I guess (did not track this thread) this is my answer repeated to you:

If a baby is aborted, the being simply goes back to where it came from, assume it is the Heaven. However, this is not the end story of that being. Most likely, the being is doomed at the end due to the abortion. Abortion does eliminate a potential Heavenly residence in the eternity.

I don't expect you would appreciate the above short answer. But if you are sincere about the question, you should discussion my summary. If I missed your response, please drop a personal message to remind me.

 

[ranunculus]

If a baby is aborted, the being simply goes back to where it came from, assume it is the Heaven. However, this is not the end story of that being. Most likely, the being is doomed at the end due to the abortion. Abortion does eliminate a potential Heavenly residence in the eternity.

It's not above god to punish people for the sins of other people. After all, he punished the entire human race for the sins of 2 humans.

However....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7629696/

If someone is mentally disabled to the point of not being able to comprehend the world around them why do they get an automatic pass into heaven? While on the other hand normal people are held to higher standards in that we have to accept christ. If this was the case, wouldnt everyone want to be that disablde so they just get a free ride into gods kingdom? The same question goes for those who have never heard the gospel. How does that make sense?

Yes, those who are mentally disabled cannot be held accountable, thus they get an automatic pass. Kind of like babies who don't know about accountability.

But we do know that the Bible teaches that God shows mercy to children because of their inability to comprehend the moral consequences of their sin. If that's the case, then it would be logical to assume God extends the mentally handicapped.

Like aborted babies, and etc...my opinion is that they will get a chance...

------

Avoiding eternal torture is key since it's by definition eternal, life is finite therefore not as important as avoiding eternal torture. Therefor any christian who thinks aborted fetuses go to heaven should be pro abortion. Any christian who thinks they don't, has a very weird definition of omnibenevolence.

 

[bricklayer]

It seems that too many theist here are avoiding the ultimate answer.

How is a 6 month pre mature birth different from one at 9 months? So a baby at 6 months in the womb isn't a person to god like someone who is just born at 9 months?........ LOL!

Let's make this a YES or NO question for right now.

Are you for abortion? Yes or No?

Do I go to heaven......or hell. Yes or no?

What part of "abortion can't save you" don't you understand.

There is no salvation by abortion.

 

[ranunculus]

Do those souls get tortured forever? Or just stop existing?

Is there no salvation for people with diminished mental capacities?

 

[bricklayer]

Do those souls get tortured forever? Or just stop existing?

Is there no salvation for people with diminished mental capacities?

There is no salvation by retardation.

 

[Resha Caner]

Do those souls get tortured forever? Or just stop existing?

Is there no salvation for people with diminished mental capacities?

You seem to think mental capacity is somehow a requirement for salvation.

 

[cXXo]

Cuz rite now i see no reason to convert back to christianity. Im a father of a 10 month old, and will raise her agnostic. would it have been better to abort her?

Or are we all born atheist, do aborted fetuses go to hell.

You think a zygote/embryo is a person? Yes?....No?

If i was a sincere christian i would say "yes for abortion!" ...It's a no brainer. Why have the baby when it has the possibility of being corrupted. Just play it safe and abort the baby instead of taking the chance that it may be tortured for 10s of trillions of eons of times trillions.

I would like your logic explained in this regard. thanks

Abort her so she can go to heaven, but you go to hell?

If an embryo has a soul, then I assume it can go to heaven. It wouldn't go to hell unless God is a sadistic psychopath, which I think we can safely rule out.

If she has a soul, and therefore the capacity to go to heaven, then the abortion would be murder.

I assume you want to have a daughter, someone you want to be proud of and pass on your wisdom to, someone to love unconditionally and who will love you. Why would you choose to abort her and miss out on that, then end up in hell?

Are you that afraid of screwing up so badly as a parent that your daughter will end up in hell? Why would you feel the need to ensure she goes to heaven by killing her before she is born? You have the chance to raise her, enjoy her company and watch her grow, have her take care of you in your old age, and be with you for eternity in heaven. But no, aborting her and rotting in hell while the stranger you never met enjoys heaven is your logical choice?

 

[ranunculus]

Abort her so she can go to heaven, but you go to hell?

If an embryo has a soul, then I assume it can go to heaven. It wouldn't go to hell unless God is a sadistic psychopath, which I think we can safely rule out.

If she has a soul, and therefore the capacity to go to heaven, then the abortion would be murder.

Life is finite, eternal torture isn't. Do you really want to risk that for your child?
Besides, as a christian you aren't judged by your actions, you are judged by your beliefs. And there isn't really a lot of judgement going on. If you believe and are baptized you will be saved, if you don't you'll be damned. There is no assessment of your life. There's a distinction made based upon "did you believe this thing for which there is no evidence". "Did you take on faith this one true belief among all the other false beliefs that are also taken on faith?"

I assume you want to have a daughter, someone you want to be proud of and pass on your wisdom to, someone to love unconditionally and who will love you. Why would you choose to abort her and miss out on that, then end up in hell?

If you're a christian this life is just a doormat to wipe your feet on. Because compared to eternity, 70 something years is literally nothing.

Avoiding eternal torture is key since it's by definition eternal, life is finite therefore not as important as avoiding eternal torture.

And any sin can be forgiven, even abortion.

Are you that afraid of screwing up so badly as a parent that your daughter will end up in hell? Why would you feel the need to ensure she goes to heaven by killing her before she is born? You have the chance to raise her, enjoy her company and watch her grow, have her take care of you in your old age, and be with you for eternity in heaven.

You should be. Children aren't clones. Even if you are super-mam and super-dad, there's no guarantee they'll make the life choices you want them to make. Even thoughts are enough to condemn a person. Are you really that selfish that you'd risk damning them for "10s of trillions of eons times trillions" just to spend a couple of seconds together?
How happy is the afterlife going to be for you if your children are in hell?

But no, aborting her and rotting in hell while the stranger you never met enjoys heaven is your logical choice?

Isn't that what Jesus did? Not abortion of course but sacrificing himself for the good of others. Except he got to rise from hell after two days and enjoy being the ruler of the universe forever and ever.

 

[cXXo]

But... We're not emotionless shells that can kill our children and treat our existence like door mats.

You're using a double standard here. It's too dangerous and the daughter will be corrupted, but the father will be forgiven for murder because all sins are forgiven?

Be intellectually honest.

I think Jesus being crucified is irrelevant here.

 

[GrayAngel]

Cuz rite now i see no reason to convert back to christianity. Im a father of a 10 month old, and will raise her agnostic. would it have been better to abort her?

Or are we all born atheist, do aborted fetuses go to hell.

You think a zygote/embryo is a person? Yes?....No?

If i was a sincere christian i would say "yes for abortion!" ...It's a no brainer. Why have the baby when it has the possibility of being corrupted. Just play it safe and abort the baby instead of taking the chance that it may be tortured for 10s of trillions of eons of times trillions.

I would like your logic explained in this regard. thanks

If a young Christian were murdered before he'd be old enough to question his parents' religion, would he go to Heaven? Yes. Does that mean we should murder every Christian child? No.

Your logic is the same. Yes, an unborn child would go to Heaven. No, this does not justify murder. It is for God to decide when a person lives or dies, not us.

Evidence that young children go to Heaven:

2 Samuel 12:21-23 - His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

David's son was only seven days old, but David was certain that he would see his son again.

Also, note what David said about his request to God, that "the LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live." The favor would be for David's benefit, not the son's. He wasn't concerned that his son might go to Hell, but he wanted his child to live all the same.

 

[ranunculus]

But... We're not emotionless shells that can kill our children and treat our existence like door mats.

Thankfully. But then it makes me wonder if you really believe in this theology that children below the age of reason get a free pass. Wouldn't you want to avoid hell at all costs? Because which is preferred? Living a long full life and going to hell or not living at all and going to heaven?

In 2001, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children because she didn't want them to grow up and commit sin and basically to guarantee that they would go to heaven. She bought into a theology that says that her children's eternal existence was at risk if she allowed them to keep living. But if she killed them as an infant they would go to heaven. So even if she is going to hell, could you think if any possible sacrifice that would be more loving then to sacrifice your own eternal existence for your children's?

Thankfully, only a few unstable people think of it in those terms. But it is a logical conclusion.

You're using a double standard here. It's too dangerous and the daughter will be corrupted, but the father will be forgiven for murder because all sins are forgiven?

Be intellectually honest.

Yes I did use a double standard, because Christianity contains this exact double standard. The father can be forgiven provided he's a christian. (all sins are forgivable) But if the daughter grows up and decides to follow another faith or no faith at all she'll be damned no matter how she led her life. That's a tenet of Christianity.

I think Jesus being crucified is irrelevant here.

The reason I brought that up is because Jesus never met me, but still supposedly sacrificed himself for me so I might have a chance at redemption. In the same vein, the father never gets to meet his daughter in life, but still jeopardizes his salvation to ensure her salvation. Not just a chance, but full on insurance.

 

[cXXo]

Thankfully. But then it makes me wonder if you really believe in this theology that children below the age of reason get a free pass. Wouldn't you want to avoid hell at all costs? Because which is preferred? Living a long full life and going to hell or not living at all and going to heaven?

In 2001, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children because she didn't want them to grow up and commit sin and basically to guarantee that they would go to heaven. She bought into a theology that says that her children's eternal existence was at risk if she allowed them to keep living. But if she killed them as an infant they would go to heaven. So even if she is going to hell, could you think if any possible sacrifice that would be more loving then to sacrifice your own eternal existence for your children's?

Thankfully, only a few unstable people think of it in those terms. But it is a logical conclusion.




Yes I did use a double standard, because Christianity contains this exact double standard. The father can be forgiven provided he's a christian. (all sins are forgivable) But if the daughter grows up and decides to follow another faith or no faith at all she'll be damned no matter how she led her life. That's a tenet of Christianity.



The reason I brought that up is because Jesus never met me, but still supposedly sacrificed himself for me so I might have a chance at redemption. In the same vein, the father never gets to meet his daughter in life, but still jeopardizes his salvation to ensure her salvation. Not just a chance, but full on insurance.

Yes but you're proposing these things as of they are mutually exclusive. You can both not abort/kill your child and still have them go to heaven. Ultimately, you care about them, but that is because you raise them and develop that love. It's not just a natural emotion you feel because they carry your genes. Jesus' love for us and sacrifice is different. If Jesus is supposedly God, then he knows us all on an intimate and personal level, we're his creations!

 

[Non sequitur]

When an embryo splits into identical twins, was a new soul created or did it split into two souls?

 

[bricklayer]

When an embryo splits into identical twins, was a new soul created or did it split into two souls?

Human souls are composed of human spirit; even as, human bodies are composed of human flesh. God created one human flesh and one human spirit in Adam. From Adam has come all human bodies and souls.

Human life does not begin with conception or birth; it began with God's creation of Adam and is continued through conceptions and births.

Human spirit died in Adam and Eve. All human beings conceived are conceived with dead souls and living bodies. Killing the body before birth cannot resurrect the soul.

 

[Non sequitur]

Human souls are composed of human spirit; even as, human bodies are composed of human flesh. God created one human flesh and one human spirit in Adam. From Adam has come all human bodies and souls.

Human life does not begin with conception or birth; it began with God's creation of Adam and is continued through conceptions and births.

Human spirit died in Adam and Eve.

How you can know this, I have no idea...

Yes, I've read you profess that over and over, as a response to any and everything.

I asked a specific question.

All human beings conceived are conceived with dead souls and living bodies.

When an embryo splits (a human being was already conceived) into identical twins, was another depressingly dead soul created or did it split into equally depressed deal two souls?

 

[bricklayer]

How you can know this, I have no idea...

Yes, I've read you profess that over and over, as a response to any and everything.

I asked a specific question.



When an embryo splits (a human being was already conceived) into identical twins, was another depressingly dead soul created or did it split into equally depressed deal two souls?

Souls are not created (something from nothing); they are made (something from something).

All bodies come from one flesh. All souls come from one spirit.
That is a "split" in the sense that one individual person is x% of humanity.
God makes it clear that He considers all humanity to be present "in Adam".

So yes, I do like your term "split"; however, the process can equally be described as a growth.