Catholic Eucharist Actual Blood and Body?

PaladinValer

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Well said!

With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.:confused:

Absolutely agreed! :thumbsup:
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well said!

With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.:confused:

"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

"Have you invited Jesus into your heart?"

I struggled for around the first twenty years of my life wondering if I had truly meant it when, at nearly the age of four, I had "invited Jesus into my heart". I struggled to know if my desire and want to follow Jesus was truly genuine. In childhood and adolescence I wanted so deeply and so badly to know that God had truly forgiven me. I was rarely at peace. So I flung myself wholly into making sure that I could "feel God" on Sunday morning, that I could "feel the Spirit moving" during worship. If I didn't, then I didn't know what to do with myself.

I prayed and prayed for God to give me the assurance of my salvation that I had been told I was supposed to have. I was told that I did have assurance of my salvation if I had accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and meant it. But how could I know if I truly meant it? I was only four years old, I didn't understand the weight of what I was doing, in fact I had misunderstood my parents and right after saying the Sinner's Prayer my folks told me that having Jesus in my heart wasn't a guarantee that I wouldn't die, so tried to "shoo" Jesus out of my heart.

At the age of eight, I remember having a fit during church and my dad took me outside of the sanctuary and we had a talk and I told him that I was terrified that I hadn't truly meant it. So he led me through the Sinner's Prayer for the second time in my life, when he asked me if I had meant it then, I told him I didn't know. I didn't know how I could know, with something that important, how could I know that I truly believed? I accepted that it was all true, and I wanted to really mean it, but didn't Scripture say that even the devils believe?

By the age of twelve we had changed churches to a Charismatic/Pentecostal setting. We had an evangelist visit the church one weekend and during one of the evening services anyone who wanted to receive the "Baptism with the Holly Spirit" was invited to come forward to receive it. So I went forward with a number of the other youth, and the evangelist laid hands on me, and I fell backward and began making consonant sounds. Had that been genuine? Or had I, in the heat of the moment and the expectations of everyone else simply gone along with it? That added to my concerns.

Nothing that I had been taught had sounded "legalistic", nobody said I had to earn brownie points with God. But my conscience was continually plagued anyway. I had been told since I was able to walk and talk that it was "grace alone" that saved me, by "faith alone". And so I wanted to believe. I wanted that faith. I wanted God's grace which alone could save me. Since nothing I could do could help, only faith, true belief, could save me I wanted that true faith, that true belief. So I spent my life yearning to have real faith, real belief, a faith that I could be absolutely certain about so that I could know I had truly committed my life to Christ.

Then I read this:

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true." - Small Catechism, Section II, Article III

I read the Scripture where the Lord said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you."

My salvation was not about my choice, my will, my failing and broken and sinful me; it was all about, in fact entirely about, Christ's all-sufficient work on Mt. Calvary.

I wanted assurance that I had meant it, because the locus of importance had been placed on my coming to Jesus, my committing myself to Christ.

Instead:

Because Christ came to us. Christ committed Himself to us. Christ gave Himself for and to us. Christ died for us. Christ chose us.

So, I guess I just find it a little ironic to refer to Lutheranism as "Legalistic".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Standing Up

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Well said!

With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.:confused:

What efficacy do you think it imparts?
 
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ViaCrucis

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What efficacy do you think it imparts?

Baptism is efficacious to accomplish what it signifies, namely the new birth in Christ. It is efficacious because God makes it happen, by His free and unmerited grace, apart from works (so that no one may boast).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I've visited a Luteran church before and found the rituals and communion very similar to the Catholic church. Legalism, tradition and rituals are common in many churches. Task masters instruct the congregations that are orientated towards a semi- liberated theology of one foot in the Old Testament Covenant and one foot in the New. All those rituals under the Law were fulfilled by Christ.
"Behold, days are coming declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant which i will make with the house of israel after those days, decdlares th Lord, I wil put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people". Jer. 31:31-33
The Old Testament Temple contained the Most Holy Place with the Ark of the Covenant and God Himself dwelled, the veil separated it from the Holy Place that contained the Lampstand, Altar of Incense and the Table of Showbread. Outside in the courtyard was the Bronze Laver and Altar for Burnt Offerings. Each one of these parts of the Temple were designed specifically to point to the future Temple in Us. We are the Temple and all the functions of the Old are now symbolic of the New. If you want to see what your invisible design looks like, look at the Old Temple.
Jesus is our High Priest and Sacrificial Lamb who enters into our hearts (Temple) with His word and the veil is lifted. The Most Holy Place is where the Holy Spirit dwells and communes with our new spirit, the Holy Place represents our souls, composed of our mind, will and emotions. The spirit and soul together are the heart of man. The courtyard represents our body. Out soul and body are where sin dwells. The Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine that represents our fellowship (communion) with God. The Lamp stand was always lit and it represents righteousness and since Jesus is the Light, we are enabled to see spiritually. The church is the "body of Christ" represented by the lampstand. The Bronze Laver was used for cleansing before entering the tabernacle to perform sacrifices. It represents the cleansing of the new believer, the baptism by water and our willingness to receive forgivness and spiritual cleansing.
The Old Testament Temple was clearly designed with the New Temple in mind. The parts and functions of the Temple are today symbolic.
The performance and participation of any of those functions today would negate that Jesus fulfilled them. However, we are told to be baptized as an act of obedience and an outward expression of an inward spiritual cleansing. Just like the showbread and wine back then are used symbolically today. Whew!!!!

Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)

What is this "clean oblation" that the Gentiles offer "in every place", if it is not the Sacrifice of Christ at every Holy Mass? For this oblation to be offered to God there must be a victim (there is no sacrifice without a victim). For there to be a "clean oblation", sometimes translated as "spotless oblation", the victim must be Christ Himself. Can YOU make a perfectly clean sacrifice to God, you a sinner, an imperfect being? No. This makes it clear that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
 
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Standing Up

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Baptism is a topic for another thread, and there have been lots of them; I'm sure you have seen them;).

No one has been talking about baptism, but about eucharist.

How is the eucharist efficacious?

RC teaches the efficacy of the cross is brought to you by the duly ordained priest at the RC altar.

What do you think?
 
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Standing Up

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Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)

What is this "clean oblation" that the Gentiles offer "in every place", if it is not the Sacrifice of Christ at every Holy Mass? For this oblation to be offered to God there must be a victim (there is no sacrifice without a victim). For there to be a "clean oblation", sometimes translated as "spotless oblation", the victim must be Christ Himself. Can YOU make a perfectly clean sacrifice to God, you a sinner, an imperfect being? No. This makes it clear that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Don't trample on the blood.
 
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It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Don't trample on the blood.

I wrote that you can´t have a sacrifice without a victim. We can offer ourselves as victims to God, but only in union with the truly "clean oblation", the Sacrifice of Christ, which is offered up at every Mass.

"Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting." (From the Offertory of the Missale Romanum of 1962)
 
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Ronald

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Legalism...you are accusing Lutherans, of all people, of legalism...

No, not entirely but be honest, examine your church. Even my Four Square Church contained legalism to some extant along with other false doctrines.
The more you teach the Mosaic Law and enforce the Ten Commandments, the veil covers your head. When you read the New Testament of Grace through faith, the veil gets lifted.
"But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."2Cor.3:15,16 NKJV Are you saying that this is farfetched?
Many pastors and their churches contain a theology that is both faith + works = salvation or faith + Law along with a little guilt = salvation. Examine your church or any denomination, you will find pastors and/or members that are legalistic. Don't think your church is perfect. Read the seven letters to the seven church in Revelation and you'll find that back when they got started, they had many promblems not just with legalism but sin. Only two were without critism, Philadelphia the faithful church and Smyrna, the persecuted. We find a mixture of all these problems in modern churches, with pastors, members all having a little leaven in their bread.
 
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Ronald

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Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)

The sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice. All we can offer is the sacrifice of praise. All you can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH --PERIOD!
Notice, your bringing up an OT scripture, a reference to gentiles before Christ's sacrifice! ???

"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”Matt. 9:13

Oblation is the same as offering and we do give offerings in many ways reflecting on how we love our neighbors.
These Catholic / Protestant differences will not resolve between us so let's just agree to disagree.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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No one has been talking about baptism, but about eucharist.

How is the eucharist efficacious?

RC teaches the efficacy of the cross is brought to you by the duly ordained priest at the RC altar.

What do you think?

As our confessions have elaborated on, it seems clear enough from Scripture that the Efficacy of the Eucharist comes from, and only from, our Lord Jesus Christ. His words and the elements of bread and wine together make the sacrament. To say that we have a part in it is wrong, that implies that we can cooperate in our own salvation, which, in turn, takes some of the credit away from our Lord, cheapening what He has done for all mankind.
 
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Standing Up

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I wrote that you can´t have a sacrifice without a victim. We can offer ourselves as victims to God, but only in union with the truly "clean oblation", the Sacrifice of Christ, -snip-

One may want to camp on that for awhile, before moving on.

Consider it in terms of what Hebrews says. Offered once for all. Then He sat down. There is no more sacrifice for sin.
 
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Standing Up

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As our confessions have elaborated on, it seems clear enough from Scripture that the Efficacy of the Eucharist comes from, and only from, our Lord Jesus Christ. His words and the elements of bread and wine together make the sacrament. To say that we have a part in it is wrong, that implies that we can cooperate in our own salvation, which, in turn, takes some of the credit away from our Lord, cheapening what He has done for all mankind.

You are implying to me that, like RC, the efficacy is only available at the eucharist. Is that what you think?
 
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Ronald

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To Chris Fleming,


[It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Don't trample on the blood.]


This is not my post, nor do I know the context of it. ???
 
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ViaCrucis

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To Chris Fleming,

[It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Don't trample on the blood.]


This is not my post, nor do I know the context of it. ???

Some of the coding has gotten messy in some of the latter posts of this thread.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice. All we can offer is the sacrifice of praise. All you can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH --PERIOD!
Notice, your bringing up an OT scripture, a reference to gentiles before Christ's sacrifice! ???

Of course I bring up an OT passage. It´s an OT passage which prophesies about Christ´s sacrifice. How else can you understand what Malachi says about the gentiles? A prophet of Israel would NEVER have said that the gentiles offer a "clean oblation" to God, or that "great is the name of the Lord of Hosts" amongst the gentile nations, if he were not referring to the future, when Salvation was extended to all nations in the New Covenant.

As a prophecy referring to our age of the New Covenant, this text of Malachi is very revealing. You say that Christ´s sacrifice was done once and for all. Catholics agree with that. Yet in a mysterious way this same sacrifice is made present at every Mass. The priest offers up the very same sacrifice at the alter as at Calvary. Since the Catholic Church is present in every nation on Earth, the Sacrifice is offered from the rising to the setting of the sun.

"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”Matt. 9:13

So you´re saying that God doesn´t want any more sacrifices? Just one problem with that idea:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God" (Romans 12:1)

Obviously sacrifices ARE still demanded of God. Therefore the type of sacrifices Jesus was talking about when He quoted Oseas in Matthew 9:13 refers to the OT sacrifices based on the old Law. He was addressing the pharisees who thought that the blood of animals could take away their sin, and that they would be justified by God simply by keeping to all their rules and regulations. These are works of the Law that St. Paul says are useless.

However, when we have faith in Jesus, and we lovingly offer our sacrifices to God through Him, they are pleasing to God. This is the meaning on Matthew 9:13. It does not mean we are not to offer sacrifices of any kind. The same word is used in English for both things, but they are very different.

Oblation is the same as offering and we do give offerings in many ways reflecting on how we love our neighbors.
These Catholic / Protestant differences will not resolve between us so let's just agree to disagree.

I´m not big on ecumensim, so I´ll find it har to "agree to disagree". ^_^
 
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So, if one doesn't partake of the eucharist with your priest, the efficacy of the cross isn't available? That's the RC and L implication?

"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you." (John 6:54)

It´s a lot more than an "implication".
 
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